Personal Experience Buying @ Hanoverian Verband Auction in Germany

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;3356833]
Chris,

sorry, but how would that person know that 1 in 10 horses has a bad trip? Sounds like a pretty good excuse to me…

Best,
Siegi[/QUOTE]

He talks to the shippers, grooms that fly with the horses, etc. He is also very familiar with the horses before they ship - knows their character, temperament, rideability, etc. These horses are typically easy to handle at home in Holland, lovely to ride, dependable at shows, etc., but are not the same after arriving at their new homes in North America. Sometimes the grooms report that the horse “had a bad flight”, sometimes the horse doesn’t do well in quarantine, sometimes the horse doesn’t handle a long road trip very well. There is no doubt that the export experience is very stressful for a horse - some deal with it much better than others.

[Dune]

@DownYonder;3357538

He talks to the shippers, grooms that fly with the horses, etc. He is also very familiar with the horses before they ship - knows their character, temperament, rideability, etc. These horses are typically easy to handle at home in Holland, lovely to ride, dependable at shows, etc., but are not the same after arriving at their new homes in North America. Sometimes the grooms report that the horse “had a bad flight”, sometimes the horse doesn’t do well in quarantine, sometimes the horse doesn’t handle a long road trip very well. There is no doubt that the export experience is very stressful for a horse - some deal with it much better than others.

Totally agree with that, and also some just don’t make the adjustment as well as others in regard to the feed and the footing…especially so for the areas of the country where it’s practically desert. You can’t blame that on the previous owners. Checkout WindsongEq’s new import from Holland, lovely boy, doing well and she loves him! :yes:

[Joanne]

I have a question for those who get upset at people wanting to go to europe to purchase. Do you still get upset if a person buys in the United States from someone who has already imported the horse? For the poster who was flying down to Florida to look a yearling Quaterback filly, she was pretty much encouraged to do that. Most of us know the farm where she is going to look; wonderfully bred horses there, BTW; who knows, maybe I will purchase from them too. Would you have been so encouraging if she wanted to go to some breeding farms in Germany to look? Also I have looked a some breeders’ web sites. They also will help you look in Germany (or europe). If you keep an eye on the classifieds (?spelling), you will see US breeders offering horses still in Germany.

[ThatScaryChick]

[QUOTE=jilmarieaz;3289152]
Hello,
I’ve recently completed a personal article on my horse buying experience in Germany at the Hanoverian Verband Summer Auction. This was my first trip and I had a large learning curve but think I was successful and came back with a beautiful horse. I’ve written the article as a how to guide for others interested in shopping in Europe and have included my research with detailed information and links to resources on planning, traveling, attending and shipping from the auction. If anyone is considering the same trip I’d be willing to answer any questions that I can. The article is on my web site at: http://sensationsporthorses.com/horsebuying.htm
Hope it helps.
Jill[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the article. I enjoyed reading it! :yes:

[ec412]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;3357538]
He talks to the shippers, grooms that fly with the horses, etc. He is also very familiar with the horses before they ship - knows their character, temperament, rideability, etc. These horses are typically easy to handle at home in Holland, lovely to ride, dependable at shows, etc., but are not the same after arriving at their new homes in North America. Sometimes the grooms report that the horse “had a bad flight”, sometimes the horse doesn’t do well in quarantine, sometimes the horse doesn’t handle a long road trip very well. There is no doubt that the export experience is very stressful for a horse - some deal with it much better than others.[/QUOTE]

First, I want to thank the poster for the most well written and informative article. Well done!

I too imported a horse from Europe, however did so from a trainer I had been working with, and had the horse stay there for training for several years. This allowed me to travel several times a year for my training and to ride my horse and learn on him, and learn his training program as well as the environment of the stable. I must admit, when I started this in 2000, the dollar to Euro was $1.00, so the value was superb.

When he traveled home, he did fabulously well, as did another horse coming from the same training stable. They both looked like a million bucks when they arrived. I know several people that have traveled with horses as a groom, on many occassions, and have not heard any horror stories on the flights, but like everything, I am sure there are some. The one bad story I did hear from a horse being imported, actually happened in the States, on his transport to his final destination.

As for the comment on horses behaviors being different, I would have to ask the question has their program changed? For the horse that was plucked from a field and is now in a stall for many hours, and in a full training program that develops their fitness, would you not expect the horse to be different?

For the horse that was in a full training program with a professional being ridden 6 days a week, to come to the States with an adult am., that juggles family, job, and riding and often skips a day at the barn due to conflicts, would you not expect that horse to be different?

Considering different turnout, different feed etc., I would not expect the horse to be the same, unless the program was identical.

I thoroughly enjoyed my travels and education, and had the opportunity to visit an auction as an observer. I found it fascinating and fun.

To the Poster: Thanks again for a well written article, and good luck to you and your horse!

[DownYonder]

EC412 - I agree with many of your statements. However, most riding horses being exported from Europe are not “plucked from a field.” Most of them have been in training for a certain length of time and are well used to being stalled. I do think it is particularly stressful, though, for horses that are - as you say - in a professional 6 day a week training program with good riders, with sometimes additional time spent on a walker or walk-band - to then go to only a 3-4 day per week program with a rider who can’t ride their big gaits and maybe hangs on their mouth or bangs on their back or gives them confusing aids.

OTOH, there are also horses who go to very good situations here in North America, with good feeding/turn-out, very good riders, etc., but who still have trouble fully recovering from the stress of their trip over. Sometimes it takes years for these horses to get over the import experience. And some - esp. those who are injured in transport - may never fully recover.

Let’s face it - there is an element of risk in importing. That doesn’t mean no one should ever shop in Europe - as said many times over - it’s a great way to see dozens of horses that meet your criteria within just a few days. Buyers just need to be aware that some horses - particularly the sensitive types that are being bred more and more these days - may take some time to settle in.

[system]

I have flown with horses - some I’ve known and some I haven’t - at least a dozen times. A horses temperament often has little to do with how they come out of the box. Some horses that would normally be considered dead broke, that get hauled to shows dozens of times a year, that load into a trailer if you simply point them in the right direction will ship poorly. I flew with one 8 year old PSG horse that had seen and done just about everything and was as cool as a cucumber in Germany. As soon as the plane lifted off the horse started running the walls and trying to kill himself. His legs would buckle like he just wanted to lay down and then he would run the walls again and for no apparent reason! He was the last horse I would had imagined doing something like that, but you simply never know. Luckily I was there and could tell the new owner why her horse came off of the truck with the elasticity of a shetland pony. In another case a 5 year old mare shipped fine, but she lost nearly a hundred pounds in quarantine because she didn’t have any appetite.

BUT, this shouldn’t scare someone from buying in Europe. This should simply encourage people to either fly with their new horse OR send a trusted agent with them. That was the ONLY time I had ever seen a horse do something stupid on a flight. Every other time every other horse has been fine. (Once I even sent a stud pony to LAX and figured out mid-flight he was between 2 mares - it was nothing but flirting pony style for 11 hours).

In conclusion, 1 out of every 10 is a gross exageration in my experience.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Winninggaits;3362583]
In conclusion, 1 out of every 10 is a gross exageration in my experience.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know why the guy would make up a stat like that, since he makes most of his living selling horses to Americans and Canadians and working with the transport companies to get them to their new owners. As I said, this is a pretty well known exporter. I actually thought it was quite an admission.

[system]

I was simply telling a story from my experience. Also, if he is an “exporter” how would he know the horses temperaments?

[ec412]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;3361752]
EC412 - I agree with many of your statements. However, most riding horses being exported from Europe are not “plucked from a field.” Most of them have been in training for a certain length of time and are well used to being stalled. I do think it is particularly stressful, though, for horses that are - as you say - in a professional 6 day a week training program with good riders, with sometimes additional time spent on a walker or walk-band - to then go to only a 3-4 day per week program with a rider who can’t ride their big gaits and maybe hangs on their mouth or bangs on their back or gives them confusing aids.

OTOH, there are also horses who go to very good situations here in North America, with good feeding/turn-out, very good riders, etc., but who still have trouble fully recovering from the stress of their trip over. Sometimes it takes years for these horses to get over the import experience. And some - esp. those who are injured in transport - may never fully recover.

Let’s face it - there is an element of risk in importing. That doesn’t mean no one should ever shop in Europe - as said many times over - it’s a great way to see dozens of horses that meet your criteria within just a few days. Buyers just need to be aware that some horses - particularly the sensitive types that are being bred more and more these days - may take some time to settle in.[/QUOTE]

Dear Down Yonder:

Many youngsters are brought in, broken and then placed back out the field. I know of several people that bought young prospects that had been in the field.

You are right, there is risk in importing, there is risk in trailoring, there is risk in turnout.

I have to agree that one in 10 is an exaggeration. I know 4 traveling grooms, none of which will agree with that statistic.

[DownYonder]

Dear EC412:

I am well aware that many people import youngsters - and broodmares - “plucked from a field”. My comment was about horses UNDER SADDLE and already IN TRAINING. I have also now talked to several grooms who fly with horses, and they have admitted that some horses do not fly well. Furthermore - as I said earlier - sometimes the horses handle the flight okay but get very stressed in quarantine or during road shipping to their new home. Again - why would the guy make up a statistic that might affect his business? But everyone is welcome to disagree with the 10% figure - it is just one person’s comment (although as I said, he is a very well known dealer/agent, so does a lot of selling to Americans).

Winninggaits - he isn’t just “an exporter”, he is a dealer and agent and trainer. He has seen many of the horses he sells being ridden, handled, etc. He has also seen some of them at shows. That exposure does give him a fair idea of their temperament.

I am not trying to stop people from shopping in Europe - heck, I am all for folks buying the best horse they can, no matter where it is from. And, as said many times before - it is far easier to fly to Germany, Holland, Denmark, etc., and in only a 2-day time span, see a dozen horses that meet your criteria, than to spent months flying around the U.S. to see a half-dozen (if you are lucky) that meet your criteria.

[not_again]

The caveat emptor is always to know the laws under which your transaction is being conducted. While it may be said that shopping in North American can involve more travel, it is easier to resolve a legal problem and return said animal if things go awry.

[Bellfleur]

When I imported my mare she was vetted by one of the biggest names in Germany. He was supposedly the German team vet for crying out loud. Dr. Peter F. Cronau was the vets name in case anyone thinks it was a no one.

Dune thought I should not mention how badly I got taken on this horse since I looked like the biggest of fools. However, when you pay over 2300 USD for a full vetting and I called several times to make sure there was nothing wrong that would prevent her from being a sound riding and competition horse. The vets answer was yes she is completely sound and we definitely give you an ok to purchase!

Then the mare arrives in quarantine with (quote from my FEI vet for Palm Beach Equine) “Christ I do not know where to start with this one, she has so many serious lameness problems” and another quote from the International FEI rider that I now train with was “this mare was lame from the day I set eyes on her, she was completely lame with what were obviously pre-existing conditions”

I thought an internationally recognized vet clinic should be trustworthy even if you are a naive American. Even if the agent and the seller had no idea (which is the purest of BS) that this mare would never be sound then this internationally recognized vet should have known. Also in the US it would have been the biggest case of malpractice if nothing else. Forget proving fraud in a non-english speaking country. They never even attempted to get all if her past vet records through a court order.

And onto the fraud and the German seller and agent had no idea. They never told me that this mare was highly FN ranked in the GP Special or that she was a well know and popular mare in Germany. They obviously hid this information so that I would not know that she was way under priced!!! Anyone else selling this level of horse would have bragged about it.

I think that people need to be made award of no matter how big a name and trusted source you have overseas that you should definitely ‘Buyer Beware’. I am not saying don’t go and shop or don’t go and buy. Just fly your own trusted FEI vet over. I will never purchase another horse from overseas without flying my American vet over.

BTW As long as it saves another American the heartache that I went through and the money I lost then I am perfectly willing to look like a total and complete idiot. At least it might be one less American the German’s sell their used up or not nice enough for them horses too.

[Kareen]

One thing that really has me wonder: You said you had come over and personally ridden this horse. How can it be you didn’t notice just how lame she was? Did you run any drug testing? I would hope in a 2.300 USD vetting there was some bloodwork involved especially if you had never dealt with the seller before?
Re. bad shipping experiences I second what Winninggaits said. Whether or not a horse reacts badly to flying is difficult to predict and has a lot to do with what happens before and during loading. When I flew I encountered some that had had horribly long trailerrides and went straight onto the plane without even a chance to roll and stretch their legs.
I’d always try to make sure the pre-flying road trip is as short and comfy as possible. It also has a tremendously calming effect if the horses travelling together know each other beforehand. I flew maybe a dozen times by now and the biggest load I took care of was 16 horses at once. I estimate I attended about 40 horses on their transatlantic trip. The only problems I had was an 11yo dressage gelding who colicked mildly because he wouldn’t pee in the stall, a 4yo hunter prospect who panicked and got stuck under the breast-girth, then ripped an artery I managed to tape underway. And lastly an 8yo jumper mare that caught a severe shipping fever and had a reaction to the strangles vaccine she had been administered post arrival.
Everyone else travelled just fine. For them I think the scariest part is the loading, takeoff and landing. Vet-wise the scariest aspect to me is the tremendous immunologic challenge (shipping stress in addition to complete change in microbiologic environment).

[Bellfleur]

I had bought two other horses from this agent. He was refered to me by a lawyer here in the US. She had also bought several horses from this Gerhard Thele (the agent in question). I had actually stayed with her at his house on two other trips. His live in girlfriend Also stayed here in my house when she was visiting the US. I had every reason to believe he was honest for 5 year previously. He was honest until it involved several hundred thousand dollars that is !

The agent was there for the vetting as I was in Johns Hopkins at that time. Yes, of course they ran the drug test and claimed it was negative and of course I asked.

She had multiple old lesions in her deep flexor tendons, her suspensories in both front legs, she had sever muscle spasms in her back right behind the saddle and had undisclosed pedal osteolysis in her front left. It is not like this was small stuff. Had I brought the American trainer I work with now and my vet there is no way this mare would have even gotten past the flexions. I asked when I was in Germany about the swelling in both front legs and was told “they are just, how do you say windpuffs, she has had them since she was 3 and they never bother her”.

I only rode her 2 months prior to her vetting so I have no idea if she was drugged at the time.

I still am living proof that you should not go over there and expect anyone to be reliable when there is a lot of money involved. They treat it as a sport over there. I am just saying everyone should be exceptionally careful.

[nhwr]

I have purchase a number of horses in Europe but I have never bought a horse in Europe that would have been considered “expensive”. Still I have always been present at the vet check, simply because things that are no big deal in Europe may be an issue in the US. But even with the cheapest horse I have purchased, every vet recommended that we pull blood and freeze it for comparison at a later date if there was a problem. Never had to follow up though.

Bellfleur, why didn’t you do this?

[YankeeLawyer]

I will vouch for the fact that Bellfleur got royally scr*wed through no fault of her own, and it took the complicity of a number of dishonest people to pull that off. She did everything she was reasonably supposed to do, and more than 99% of people would do when shopping abroad (and certainly far more than anyone who shops at an auction). People can take her experience as a warning of what could happen in the worst case scenario, and hope they never encounter that, or they can disregard it as something that could not possibly happen to them. I am very cautious any time I buy a horse but even so, knowing what I do about the case, I am aware that it could have happened to me just as it happened to her.

I think the more broadly applicable lesson from Bellfleur’s experience is the difficulty in pursuing remedies abroad when a horse sale does go wrong. Clearly, there are dishonest sellers here as well, so people could just shrug and say that could happen anywhere, so what (except for the fact you would be more likely to be familiar with a US trainer, rider, and horse of that calibre and it would be harder hide the horse’s issues here). But you won’t encounter the kinds of obstacles here when you try to do something about it that you will when trying to sue in Germany from here.

[slc2]

It is easy to get taken buying anywhere.

Nearly all people who have horses to sell are very friendly.

Did a vet in the United States evaluate the xrays, prepurchase exam video, riding videos. Was there a clause in the purchasing contract that included provisions for evaluating the horse on delivery and returning it?

[page3girl]

US Vet?

Bellfleur – I have a question for you about your vet check (and doing vet checks abroad in general).

Here at home, it’s customary here to have your local vet – whom you premably trust – review all findings from a remote vet check, including images, etc. I’ve actually had my (excellent) vet here in Northern Virginia find problems on the images that a local man missed when vetting the horse, and would never buy a horse without my vet being able to assist in the vetting. I also think I’ll explore the idea, if possible, of taping the vet check so my vet can see the flexions, etc. directly.

Is this something you were able to do for this transaction? Is there any reason why the average little guy buying a horse in Europe wouldn’t be able to do this? Sorry if I missed it, but I don’t recall seeing mention of a US vet in your story.

[slc2]

bellfleur, did you have your vet go over a video of the prepurchase or the xrays?

Nearly all people who have horses to sell are very friendly. A friend could sell a horse to you and have no idea there’s anything wrong with the horse if he hasn’t had it that long. Even agents don’t always know much about a horse they sell. Then there’s also the agent who knows the horse has problems and is trying to sell it anyway.

A good way to avoid the above problems is to have a video tape made of the prepurchase exam. The video includes the identifying marks on the horse, the label on the blood sample is displayed, and you get to watch as the blood sample is taken. You get a receipt for the blood sample and can send it somewhere else for testing. I feel the sample should not just be stored, it should be tested, and by an independent clinic. You get to see the flexions being done, and your vet can say if he thinks the flexions are not being done properly.

Not using the veterinarian of the seller helps, but no matter who did the prepurchase in Europe, I would also have everything evaluated by an american vet who is very good with sport horses.

I would expect to see a printed report from the European vet, signed with his or her name, clinic, date, etc, and I would also give that to my vets with the videos of the horse being ridden, the digital xrays, the video of the prepurchase, blood sample documentation, any cultures, etc.