Bellfleur: What happened to the horse?
Has anyone heard of a horse being drugged at any of the verband auctions?
[QUOTE=Joanne;3376267]
Has anyone heard of a horse being drugged at any of the verband auctions?[/QUOTE]
no. of course, if you are there for one to two weeks before the auction during the training period, you sometimes wonder why they don’t, some of the horses there are so plain unbroke, but you can also watch and see how hard those horses get worked to get them at least “presentable” the days leading into the auction.
That, rather than drugging, may account for many of the “personality” changes sometimes reported, from the seemingly quiet and docile horse tried out the day before the auction and what happens a month later when they are in their new homes…that’s one reason my husband liked to be there on the first day the horses were arriving, to see how they behaved when confronted with new situations, but also to see what they were like before 2 weeks of intensive riding by professional auction riders.
And that also works the other way–horses who are overfaced by the auction environment and don’t show off well or are really too green to be there in the first place, often bloom later in a less demanding environment (that’s how we got my mare)
I personally have horses from the Hanoverian Verband Auction and have used the Verband’s vet for PPEs on other horses abroad, and have only had positive experiences. I do have my own vet here review the radiographs, which are done digitally and can be emailed.
In fact, the vets abroad encouraged me to do that.
You guys can Monday morning quarterback Bellfleur’s situation all you want, but I can virtually guarantee that most buyers – even the savviest – would not have done anything different than she did in this transaction (and in fact, most would not have done as much as she did). I do not think the story is typical; as I said, I have only had good dealings abroad. But it is an example of what can happen when shopping abroad, and how little recourse there is when it does.
I helped a friend buy a youngster at the Verden auction two years ago, he was in the top 10 national Merkel young horse championships in Lexington last year at 4yrs, and is qualified for the 5yr olds this year. This was the second horse she purchased this way, the first is having a fabulous career eventing.
YL – if you’re referring to my post, I’m not trying to do any Monday morning quarterbacking! Bellfleur says she wants her experience to be a “teachable moment” for all of us, so I’m trying to find out if coordination with a US vet was part of the process or not, and if it is generally accepted practice when shopping abroad.
Sounds from other posters like this is generally done, so I’m really wondering if this all happened even with a trusted vet at home involved in the PPE?
i had the same question. i think when a friend has a problem questions might be resented as suggesting she didn’t do enough to prevent the problem, but since the reason for posting the experience was to provide a learning experience, and that wasn’t detailed in the description, the questions help people learn more from the experience. it sounded like the person didn’t get an outside vet involved because he was a friend and she trusted him.
new web address for this article
Hello,
Just an FYI, I’ve started a horse blog with various horse care and information articles and have moved my auction article to that page - http://sensationsporthorses.com/horseblog.htm
Jill
Hi Jill: Just to let you know that the three articles below your auction article are not working.
an interesting story
So, do any horses from the auction have previous colic surgeries? Are they revealed to the buyers?
[QUOTE=slc2;3376890]
i had the same question. i think when a friend has a problem questions might be resented as suggesting she didn’t do enough to prevent the problem, but since the reason for posting the experience was to provide a learning experience, and that wasn’t detailed in the description, the questions help people learn more from the experience. it sounded like the person didn’t get an outside vet involved because he was a friend and she trusted him.[/QUOTE]
I don’t disagree with that. I have a hard time reading some of the posts because I am aware of more details, but you are just going to have to take my word for it that Bellfleur got royally shafted, and that there is very little that she or anyone else could have done where the seller is intent on defrauding the buyer. For example, getting radiographs and blood samples is prudent, but won’t help much if you cannot ensure that the results you are given are from the horse in question.
Anyway, as I said, I do believe this is a very extreme example, that it is not typical, but it does illustrate the worst case scenario that can occur notwithstanding the fact the buyer has taken all reasonable precautions in shopping for the horse, including retaining a supposedly reputable agent, trying the horse in person, and doing an extremely thorough (and costly) vetting by someone who is supposed to be one of the top vets in that country. And more to the point – it is very, very difficult to get any kind of relief when this occurs in an international transaction of this nature.
The agent stated, I believe, has a very good reputation. I know people that have put a lot of faith in him for their purchases.
Bellfleur, I’m curious about a couple things, if you don’t mind: Exactly what kind of horse were you trying to purchase? Where the disconnect occurs for me is that I think you mentioned the word schoolmaster (if I remember correctly, although quite honestly this whole thread is a bit of a blur) in the same context as a couple hundred thousand dollars. 
Were you really trying to simply find a schoolmaster for that amount of $$ or were you looking for something to make you competitive on a higher level (ie nationally, internationally)…what were your goals? You said you rode the horse, I’m assuming you’re a very experienced rider, is that true? With that amount of damage to the soft tissue, could you really not palpate that in the legs? Did you have the x-rays/ultrasounds looked at by your vet here? Most folks that I know who buy (even much less expensive) horses abroad fly their vets over for the vet check, did you do this? Are you holding the US lawyer who referred you to this German broker as responsible as the “other side”? It sounds like they did a good job for you several times and then this one went bad, sometimes that’s just the luck of the draw. Heck, somewhere around 1 out of 5 US bred horses I buy doesn’t work out like I thought it would…sometimes it’s a cheapie but it’s also been a more expensive one as well. It stinks, but what are you going to do? 
Again, OP great article!
[QUOTE=Dune;3379354]
Bellfleur, I’m curious about a couple things, if you don’t mind: Exactly what kind of horse were you trying to purchase? Where the disconnect occurs for me is that I think you mentioned the word schoolmaster (if I remember correctly, although quite honestly this whole thread is a bit of a blur) in the same context as a couple hundred thousand dollars. Were you really trying to simply find a schoolmaster for that amount of $$ or were you looking for something to make you competitive on a higher level (ie nationally, internationally)…what were your goals? You said you rode the horse, I’m assuming you’re a very experienced rider, is that true? With that amount of damage to the soft tissue, could you really not palpate that in the legs? Did you have the x-rays/ultrasounds looked at by your vet here? Most folks that I know who buy (even much less expensive) horses abroad fly their vets over for the vet check, did you do this? Are you holding the US lawyer who referred you to this German broker as responsible as the “other side”? It sounds like they did a good job for you several times and then this one went bad, sometimes that’s just the luck of the draw. Heck, somewhere around 1 out of 5 US bred horses I buy doesn’t work out like I thought it would…sometimes it’s a cheapie but it’s also been a more expensive one as well. It stinks, but what are you going to do? Again, OP great article![/QUOTE]
I think the difference here is that there is no doubt that the seller intentionally defrauded the buyer, and that multiple people conspired to do so. That is very different than getting a horse that, unbeknownst to anyone at the time of purchase, has an issue that ultimately renders it unsuitable.
[QUOTE=cinthia;3377183]
So, do any horses from the auction have previous colic surgeries? Are they revealed to the buyers?[/QUOTE]
When you consign a horse to one of the Verband auctions, you have to sign a statement disclosing the horse’s medical/surgical history. For anything “significant” (joint surgery, colic surgery, etc.), the auction house requests records, etc. from the surgical center and a decision is made based on those records, the horse’s current condition, prognosis, etc., as to whether to accept the horse in the auction. Also, the vet records as disclosed to the auction house are generally available to prospective buyers.
I think most of the major Verbands are pretty careful about what they will accept, esp. for the Elite auctions. They certainly don’t want to take a chance on having a horse being returned to them, or being sued, etc., down the road.
That is really such a shame and scary.
Thanks for the update on the links! I think I’ve fixed them so they should work well now. Really appreciate the feedback. Oh and I’m starting to add historical information with the auction results on my “Europen Buying” aticle for anyone interested.
thanks
Jill
http://sensationsporthorses.com/horseblog.htm
Bellfleur, what an awful awful experience! I am with you on this one, there is only SO much you can do when a group of people are basically out to screw you over, including a very well known and respected vet. What a shame…do you still have the mare, were the issues at least injury related ?
With this post I am just letting people know of my personal experience in buying from Germany in this one case only. For those of you criticizing, why? You think the oh I had a wonderful story about my buying experience was great. What is wrong with disclosing the darkside of the buying experience in Germany too? Do you think all Americans should go over there saying Wow look how easy this is and get stuck the way I did?? OR would you rather think I was just so stupid? Or would you rather go armed with knowledge that I did not have?
Yes Of course I would not do things the same again. All I am trying to get across (at my expense I might add) is that the buyer should be extremely wary when shopping overseas (sometimes even when the agent is in the US and you are buying sight unseen!)
I am not saying everyone would have this experience. I am not sure why anyone here would not appreciate the warning though. Or maybe you think the same cannot happen to you?
Yankee Lawyer THANKS FOR YOUR SUPPORT !! You are a very knowledgeable horse person and a world class attorney so your support means lot to me!!
Gerhard Thele is a crook in no uncertain terms. This is not to say he does not know a good horse when he sees one. He can be an excellent judge of horses, besides even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while. He can be very very charming too. They are two totally separate issues. I did not differentiate between them until too late either.
Gerhard Thele is the ultimate con man with no ethics or honor whatsoever. He feels no sense of shame nor is he capable of understanding that he should feel guilty over actions that should inspire that feeling. It is all about what works for him and the h*ll with the rest of the people on this planet.
In addition, he is an accused in the US of attempted murderer and kidnapping. The only reason he was not convicted is that he fled back to Germany to avoid prosecution. He is on the detain and arrest list of Homeland Security. Check for yourself if you do not believe me.
If he attempts to return to the US he will be thrown in jail and before you argue on this point let me give you a few facts. I knew this man over a period of several YEARS. He asked me to hire him an attorney here in the US to see what could be done to fix the situation. I actually made phone calls to some other people/friends he said would support his cause (funny it never clued me in that they would never return my calls!) and hired him an attorney. He told me that his ex-wife - an American - had just unjustly accused him because she wanted to steal his farm here in the US.
A good friend at the time (now EX friend) convinced me that he was some poor put upon guy that had been taken to the cleaners by his ex. She said “you know like when the wife wants sole custody of the kids and she accuses the husband of sexually molesting the kids” She said his rotten wife just wanted to steal the farm here from him!! This woman is a lawyer so I thought if anyone knew she would.
I want to believe he had suckered her in also. In hindsight I wonder if she was complicit in this too??? As far as I know she still has not seen the light. Personally, I hope he finally shows her his true colours too!!
He definitely was accused of attempted murder and several other charges (kidnapping etc.) He did lock his wife in a basement and did attempt to murder her. PERIOD! She escaped and ran down the road and got a trooper. Then he fled the US so he would not be convicted. I checked with the police department that handled the case. All, after the fact of course.
When I told him that the horse was lame (she was still in quarantine) and that I did not want it to affect his reputation he said quote " who cares about what any of the Americans think about me anyhow" he also said I was on my own looking for a German lawyer. If he was an ethical agent at all he would on finding out that the mare was completely lame he would have been involved in attempting to resolve the situation.
Everyone thinks Nope he would not con me. If you want to go down that road, go ahead, ignore this warning. Oh he imported this super horse and that super horse. No matter the guy is a crook. This is for the people who are unaware and who will listen to reason. I did not listen and here I am as Dune says Letting everyone know what a complete fool I was. In hindsight, I cannot believe I was sooooooo naive and stupid either. No one on this board could think I am dumber than I think I was over this.
If you still have questions about this man’s character you should question some of the German breed representatives. Many German’s know him and know exactly what he is. I hindsight I was clearly warned off by several very knowledgeable people. I was told that they just did not have the true story. I take in stray puppies too and give free riding lessons to kids who have parents that cannot afford them too. DUH !!!
I did have other indications that I ignored. While I was in Germany with him his young stallion prospect was declined for the approvals. He said “Oh who cares, I run the one for Australia and I can issue him some myself” He fills his car with farm diesel and does not pay any tax and giggles about how long he has ripped off the government. All warning signs that I ignored because after all who wants to follow the rules all of the time???
Yes I did ask for a video of the vetting to be done. I was told later that the camera screwed up the tape (this sounded reasonable because this guy is totally computer illiterate and the simplest digital camera is beyond his comprehension) so I called the vet directly not once but several times to check on various things to make sure the mare was sound before I transfered the funds. Yes there was also blood work done. The German vet also claimed that was fine. I waited several days for it to “come back” also! Yes I had the X-Rays sent here to a phenomenal vet. Yes, they were OK for a mare that was schooled to GP at her age. The only thing that works in this whole scenario is that the VET WAS FOR SALE. PERIOD. There is no way an FEI vet of this caliber could have missed so many soft tissue injuries. Gerhard Thele also assured me personally several times that yes she is sound AND quote “I was there and she is completely sound so you have no grounds to back out of the sale”.
I also wonder if the seller of this mare sold her as a riding horse at all. You cannot tell me that she did not know about the lameness issues facing this mare. I will always wonder if she knew that the mare had soundness issues and was only selling her for much less money as a broodmare that might stay sound for a while. She did not speak any English and I clearly do not speak German. So I have no idea as to what transpired between her and Gerhard Thele.
I have since heard of many cases where horses came over and they were completely not suitable for the purpose intended and they were sold by very well known people. I also have heard many stories where the x-rays did not match the horses imported (and they were purchased at an auction) Is this the majority I do not think so. I do think that anyone can get taken for a ride in a foreign country easier than here.
This is only a warning for those of you who want it, when shopping in Germany. If do not feel that other Americans should shop with no warning. If you do want or need this then just don’t read it.
Again I was just pointing out that one should not expect to have legal recourse in Germany when something does go wrong. In this country Gerhard Thele would be in jail for fraud and the vet would have been stripped of his license in addition to the malpractice charges. Everyone talks about how “OH if I get a Horse in Germany and it turns out to be lame they have that law in the EU that protects me” That is the biggest amount of BS I have ever seen. Do NOT believe it. Americans are by far too trusting when shopping in Europe and the language barrier helps with that problem.
I do know of several agents (that I have since met) that have imported many lovely horses for clients here in the US that have worked out fine. I am just SUGGESTING that really bad stuff can and does happen to perfectly unsuspecting Americans when they go shopping without the right help and protection in Germany.
Finally the mare in question is still here with me. She has a lovely home where she is very much loved and well cared for. She has produced some lovely foals via embryo transfer. She will always have a great home here with me and I love her very much so at least all was not lost. Maybe God’s reason for this happening is she needed a new home. I hope that someday I can compete one of her daughters to the same level that she was. I would not have sent her back to the situation she came from for any amount of money. People here have offered buy her also and the answer is no and will always be no.
I hindsight I was clearly warned off by several very knowledgeable people.
Hindsight is wonderful, isn’t it? I have been in similar, but nowhere near so expensive or heartbreaking, where someone has ‘warned’ me about something.
In particular, I remember a dear friend ‘warning’ me about taking a job with someone who turned out to be an absolute snake!!! The problem is, that although the warning may be issued several times, it is sometimes sooooooo subtle that it is easy to either ignore it or minimize it.
Anyone ever told any of you gals to ‘not marry that man’? Told he was a drunk, or a loser, or a run-around, or a xxx or a yyy or whatever? Nah, he’s never been like that to me, he’s never cheated on me, or whatever, and then found yourself in such a mess, with no job, no money, no support and afraid to leave the relationship??? It happens all the time.
Often we are sooooo wound up in what we ‘think’ we can get out of the relationship of whatever kind - marrying who you think is your dream guy (or gal), buying the perfect horse, accepting the perfect job - only to find out that the people who love you TRIED to tell you but you just weren’t ready to listen. In your mind, in that situation, THEY were the ones who were wrong, not you. Sometimes the people giving warnings may repeat them several times, but they are very subtle as your friends don’t want to lose you by telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Bellfleur, I don’t know if it helps, but I believe you and appreciate you baring your soul to try to same the rest of us from a similar situation. It must be terribly hard to admit all the details of what happened to you, but if it saves someone else from a similar expensive and hearbreaking mistake it will be worth it.
Bless you for giving this lovely mare a wonderful home for life instead of returning her to a life of potential abuse and pain!!
Bellfleur, thanks for posting this. Hopefully it will serve as a wakeup call that when dealing outisde the US, we are not protected. I am totally shocked, as I do believe many of the wonderful horses I own are a result of some of the very special horses this agent imported. You just never know do you. I am so sorry you had to deal with this.
