Personal Experience Buying @ Hanoverian Verband Auction in Germany

[slc2]

What I did, is get the xrays and video sent to me and then hand carry them to the vet, so the vet and seller never communicated with eachother and the seller never got any contact information for the vet.

It’s best if the seller doesn’t know what vet one uses.

It removes all doubt from your mind if anything does go wrong.

Another possibility that I think more and more people are doing with the more expensive horses is getting ultrasounds done in the prepurchase and/or other imaging that will reveal soft tissue problems.

I once bought a horse without that (the vet went over the xrays, and a local clinic did the prepurchase), and when i got the horse, i had the vet look him over. He pointed out a problem and did an ultrasound of the leg, and said, ‘Boy did you get lucky’, as it was just a distended synovial sheath or something like that, and just normal.

I got lucky that time, but I wouldn’t get another horse in the future without having ultrasounds or some additional soft tissue imaging done.

You say the American vet was in on it? Or do you feel that since all the American vet had was xrays, he wouldn’t have been able to see soft tissue problems. Sometimes, though, tendon and ligament injuries do show on xrays.

If a video of the vet exam was not provided, i would not have proceeded.

It’s very sad and it sounds like you’re your own worst critic and feel bad about it already. I think the biggest mistake you made was just assuming the seller was a nice person. You got taken in.

And I think a lot of those horse dealers, in USA or not, can be very charming.

I have also found that MOST dealers have, at one time or another, sold some really nice horses. But I also have found that most of them at one time or another have bought something that just wasn’t that good, or are trying to get rid of something for a friend, so I don’t change my procedures if they have sold a nice horse, even a really great horse.

Some of the dealers are better than others, but I would never assume that an individual wouldn’t at some time or another, have a dodgy horse to sell. I think they’ve all done it.

Saying Thele is a crooked guy that people have to avoid doesn’t really work, because I think everyone needs to be careful no matter who they are buying from. I would have a standard procedure and always follow it, no matter who it was.

I think the best thing when buying a horse is to always be a little bit afraid of the seller.

In the sense that you don’t ever actually assume you can believe what they say, always check for yourself and always use the same procedures regardless of whether you feel the person is a friend or not. Always have a little sense of doubt in your mind.

I hope you can get this horse healed up or somehow get another horse. The saddest thing is the possibility that the person can’t get another horse and can’t even continue riding, because a deal like this takes away all the money the person ever had to get a horse with.

I do think, though, that Germany does have very strict laws about this and that there are some provisions for buyers who feel ripped off. They are very strict on animal-related legal issues and it might not be impossible to be compensated. I just hope it works out for yiou so it isn’t a financial disaster for you.

[egontoast]

I think people are being a little hard on Bellfleur here. As buyers we rely a great deal on the the PPE. We ought to be able to rely on the assessment of a highly esteemed vet, for whom’s opinion we have paid dearly, no matter where they are. I’m not talking about gray areas on interpreting xrays which may differ culturally but on very clear issues which any good vet ought to identify easily. Any credible vet also should be willing to share the raw data if there is a problem.

I don’t know the details here at all but I don’t think the people who are saying ‘why did you not double check this or that with other vets’ know the details either. If you hire a knowledgeable vet for a PPE , and pay dearly, you ought to be able to expect an objective and reasonable assessment of the horse. Did that happen here? we don’t know.

If you feel that a vet, any vet, anywhere, was somehow unethical or negligent in a PPE , there are avenues you can pursue other than the very expensive legal quagmire. You can file a complaint to the regulatory authority for veterinarians in the jurisdiction and ask them to investigate. I am not familiar with how this works in europe but I assume it is similar to in NA and that your complaint will be investigated and the vet in question will be required to provide documentation to support his opinion, including xrays, etc, which will not be at the buyer’s expense.

Again, I do not know the facts here, but the buyer ought to be able to rely on the PPE vet to provide a competent and objective PPE, wherever the vet is based. If that has not happened, the buyer is entitled to pursue a remedy. For people to criticize the buyer for not double checking the PPE vet by running it through other vets in other countries is disturbing.

it suggests that all european vets are dishonest and I suspect that is not true.

[Pommederue]

Bellfleur I believe you and you’re not alone by any means. While in Europe, on numerous occasions I have been shown visibly lame horses horses. I guess I’m lucky they thought I wouldn’t notice since they could have hidden it with drugs/injections. I politely say ‘no thanks’ and move on to the next barn. I’ve had more than on agent over there say, “oh, you can actually ride? I assumed because you were an American, you wouldn’t be able to.”

I also have been ripped-off on more than one occasion and I am not impressed at all with the vet that you mentioned. ‘Team vet’ - scheme vet.

I had good experiences with the Hannoverian Auction and extremely bad experiences. Be careful shopping there!

Let’s face it, buying horses for big bucks is a big risk on any continent especially if you don’t know where or whom the horse came from. There was a consignment agent that boarded at my stables a while back and once a week it was an assembly line of joint injections for all the sell horses. Some were having a pastern injected, some a stiffle; who knows what was being masked? Many were NQR and I saw them go out the door weekly. That agent is not longer in the area. I suspect they burned too many bridges and needed to move on.

Anyway, for pricey ‘trained’ horses try to look at the show history; look for large gaps and ask the owner to explain the gap. I always talk to the owner or trainer of the horse, not just the agent. Or I just buy 3 to 5 year olds that haven’t been shot up with steroids yet.

Getting burned like you did was a huge bummer. Good for you for telling your story and warning people that it’s buyer beware!

Oh and PS, if someone wants to purchase a PSG or above horse, they should ultrasound every tendon and ligament since it’s most likely soft tissue damage, not bone, that will end their career.

[Dune]

@YankeeLawyer;3379507

I think the difference here is that there is no doubt that the seller intentionally defrauded the buyer, and that multiple people conspired to do so. That is very different than getting a horse that, unbeknownst to anyone at the time of purchase, has an issue that ultimately renders it unsuitable.

Actually, I addressed my post to Bellfleur. I know you’re her bodyguard and all, but I was hoping she could answer herself. Some of the questions were answered but not all. I’m just curious, not trying to start another war…

[cinthia]

So what happens

Down Yonder,
Thank you for the information. What happens when the verband is lied to on a signed information on the horse in question?

[Bellfleur]

My vet here in the US was definitely not involved with the German sellers in any way! He saw X-Rays that were fairly normal for a horse of that age and level of training. The vet clinic did not tell him anything about any issues either. I had no clue about ultrasounding every leg on the horse for a pre-purchase but I would from now on!

I unfortunately, was depending on the FEI vet (I paid him a lot of money!) that was on site to tell me if we needed to have any additional tests. I actually asked that question prior to finalizing the sale. Quote “Is there any other tests we need to run to answer any other questions about her soundness?”

In the future I would spend the money and import my own vet after the horse passed some sort of preliminary exam in Germany and I would have my vet looking over the German vets shoulder the whole time. Plus I would always be on site for any future vet exams. Hopefully I will never need another one as some of my young horses are now starting to reach competition age. It would just have been a lot easier to have one to learn from instead of trying to learn with one.

Dune I am not sure what other questions I have not answered for you? Clearly you cannot be upset with Yankee Lawyer for sticking up for me since you seem to think I am the biggest fool on the planet. Obviously someone needs too. Yankee Lawyer is so kind to everyone she meets I have no idea how you can fault her. She is a caring person both with horses and humans. She does call it like she sees it and if I had been at fault on this one she would have been the first to tell me. She would have done it WITH consideration for my feelings and without any rudeness however.

She is a top attorney and gives knowledgeable advice from a legal perspective. Plus she has a lot of tact and class while presenting her viewpoint in a well thought out intelligent, logical way with supporting examples. She may try and sway you with her arguments but she does not berate people for not sharing her viewpoint.

As to why I purchased this particular mare I needed bloodlines, brins and movement for use as an embryo transfer donor (since I do some breeding) and an FEI schooled mount to continue my riding education on.

As Yankee Lawyer can tell you (since she has visited my farm and knows the quality of the horses I have produced) that I am very particular as to what I produce. They need great minds, have performance careers of their own or at least up close in the mare line, and have 3 really, really good gaits.

I adore my mares and am especially selective since I only breed 2 or 3 foals a year. Filling all of these requirements in one horse was difficult but had this mare been sound she certainly would have met them. She is one of the most brilliant mares I have ever seen, even ridden badly!

I believe my breeding program speaks for itself hence the decision to purchase a world class mare for breeding also. I have only been breeding warmbloods for about 8 years with only two or three foals per year. I have produced one HOY Champion, one HOY Reserve Champion, one that was 4th in the four year old Year End Championships in Kentucky in 2006, and one that was the highest scoring under saddle horse at Dressage at Devon in 2007, among others. He scored higher than the fancy German Imported expensive stallions that were competing and from a top judge too!!! I have done this on a pretty tight budget compared to what some of the large farms have to purchase horses with.

This was my one and only trained expensive horse for my entire life (no I do not have the funds to run out and buy another GP mare! I would be willing to take donations and all the advise that goes with it though :lol::D:lol:).

All of my other horses have been purchased as young horses (only 3 of those too!) or I have bred them myself. I probably will never have another opportunity to purchase another GP horse but maybe if all of the stars align once again. I will just have to wait and see.

At the recent 2008 inspection with the Oldenburg Verband I had the Top Colt for the two days, the Top Filly and the Top mare with a 7.8. There were 32 foals and this inspection is one of the most competitive in the country. I have also already produced 2 Oldenburg Verband Stallion prospects where the inspectors are members of the German Oldenburg Verband Inspection team that chooses the young stallions in Germany. Plus one additional one that was told was too young for the Official title but (he was only 2 weeks old at the time of his inspection) they told me if I could have waited a couple of weeks then they though he would have been also. They asked that I wait on him before making a decision to geld him.

So yes I happen to like really top mares so I went to purchase one and thought the money I was spending was sufficient and that I was doing well protecting myself.

[slc2]

i would hope instead of getting defensive, ALL buyers who have been ripped off would welcome questions like this.

some questions may seem dumb or self evident, but i think it is fantastic to see people learning from the experience of others and asking questions - alot of questions.

hopefully the word will get spread around more and more, and no, i don’t think the message can be ‘watch out for joe’, rather, it should be, have a procedure you always follow, no matter who it is, a procedure that protects the buyer.

[nhwr]

There are differences in standards for competition and care between the US and Europe. This creates a loophole for some to drive a truck through. I don’t know that this applies to Bellfluer’s experience. But it might apply to mine. I was interested in purchasing a horse for whom the vet check revealed a major issue, as far as I was concerned. Because the European vet vetted the horse to the European standard, he felt it would not be a big deal. Knowing something, but not enough, about the concern I was alerted to a problem. But the only reason that this concerned even developed was because I was at the vet check asking questions. If I relied on a European agent, no questions would have arisen. The horse would have been deemed suitable by the European vet. But I rejected it.

Still I thought it was a very nice horse. I looked for another 6 months to find one that had as nice bloodlines and with whom I clicked. During that time I learned more about the concern and was able to develop a more thorough vettting protocol that gave my US vet and me a lot more information.

Lessons learned from this experience;

I had no agent in Europe smoothing things over, trying to close the deal. So there was no pressure that way. The seller was very disappointed. They took the horse to their own specialist who confirmed my concerns. He recommended further tests (the same tests my US vet advised) to get more info.

Bottom line;

If had I had not been at the vet check, I would have likely never known about this issue. It was just not the kind of thing that would have been a problem in Europe and the vet would have let it go. Did that make him “bad”? IMO, he was operating within his standard of practice. I am OK with that.

Time passes; 6 months later after more investigation, I bought the horse. I have never had an issue.

Take home message - An agent can help you find a horse. Once you have found the horse, it is the agent’s interest (not necessarily yours) to close the deal. The vet works for who pays him. If you, as the prospective buyer, are at the vet check to ask questions and pay the bill, you will have your concerns addressed. [I]

ALWAYS GO TO THE VET CHECK, ASK THE VET QUESTIONS[/I] AND PAY THE BILL.

[vali]

I have never shopped in Europe, but I have shopped in New Zealand and have had several other friends import horses from New Zealand, and it does not always go well. My gelding was definitely less of an adult amateur type than had been represented, and they clearly selectively edited the videos, since I later saw some of the unedited tapes where he was pulling quite hard even with a professional. Luckily I can deal with hot horses, and he did his best to keep me on his back throughout his career, and he truly adored cross country. Only horse I’ve had that has never even think of stopping, no matter how big the fence. A very sweet personality, but a challenge to get a calm dressage test out of. I don’t think they misrepresented anything in the prepurchase, and he had lovely digital x-rays, but his feet never totally adjusted to the harder California footing, and he eventually developed some soft tissues relating to his feet. I eventually gave him to my mother when he was sixteen, who lives in the Northwest, and the footing agree with him much better there. She adores riding him.

I’ve had other friends who’ve imported New Zealand horses off of video tapes, and that has often gone badly. They keep their horses in pasture all day, and their idea of “calm” is not the same as ours. We’ve had several in our barn, and some of them were just so hot and sensitive that they were not at all suited to their junior or amateur riders. I did buy a NZ gelding later that someone else had imported as a jumper prospect, and he does have a lovely quieter disposition, but he’s incredibly accident prone and developed stifle arthritis by 10. They are not as bulletproof as represented. We’ve also had several Irish imports into our barn, and it takes their feet a while to adapt as well. I now have a Connemara cross mare with fabulous bare feet, but even she seems to pop splints frequently, so my dream of getting a really hardy horse seems unattainable.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=cinthia;3383240]
Down Yonder,
Thank you for the information. What happens when the verband is lied to on a signed information on the horse in question?[/QUOTE]

I am most familiar with the Oldenburg auctions, but I imagine most of the Verbands - esp. the major ones - operate the same way. If they learn that a seller has lied about a significant medical issue, they are very, very loathe to accept horses from that seller again. This is one reason why it often pays to work through the Verband offices when horse-shopping. The Verbands know which of their breeders/trainers/agents are honest and trustworthy, and which ones are likely to try to put one over on unsuspecting buyers.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;3384656]
I am most familiar with the Oldenburg auctions, but I imagine most of the Verbands - esp. the major ones - operate the same way. If they learn that a seller has lied about a significant medical issue, they are very, very loathe to accept horses from that seller again. This is one reason why it often pays to work through the Verband offices when horse-shopping. The Verbands know which of their breeders/trainers/agents are honest and trustworthy, and which ones are likely to try to put one over on unsuspecting buyers.[/QUOTE]

That has been my experience with regard to the Hanoverian Verband; it is a great resource.

---

Regarding people getting “defensive” – it is one thing to ask questions, and a number of fair and thoughtful ones have been posed. I believe these questions were answered candidly, thoughtfully, and thoroughly. It is quite another to declare someone a complete fool- in particular without having all the facts – and to pose inflammatory, immaterial questions and make snide remarks. MOST people would be a little chafed at the latter scenario.

Regarding being present at PPEs – that is something I think is useful regardless of where you are shopping. The only time I have had an issue with a PPE was here, in this country, when I was unable to be present for the PPE and later found my (former) vet had flat out lied to me about what had and had not been done in terms of tests during the exam. Specifically, the vet had claimed the horse’s flexions were perfect and yet it became patently obvious these had never been done when we discovered, after purchase, that any attempt to lift the hind feet would cause the horse to have a complete meltdown. I had an interesting conversation with that vet when I called for sedatives in order to be able to have the horse’s feet trimmed. And I later found out that despite the very good reputation of that (multi-vet) vet practice, others have had negative experiences with that one vet.

Regarding the point made by NHWR about differences between US snd EU care and competition standards – imo, that is an excellent point, and one people should be mindful of when shopping abroad. That said, crippled is crippled in any country, and I don’t think in Bellfleur’s case there is a single German, American, or Martian vet worth their salt who would have declared that horse sound.

On the bright side, the horse managed to find its way to a dream home from a horsie perspective. And she is producing jaw-dropping foals that are her spitting image. One in particular, an ET filly, is fascinating to watch as she has the exact same very distinctive and beautiful canter as her biological mom. It is very cool to see just how heritable certain traits are, particularlly in the ET context where the foal is raised by the recipient mare.

[slc2]

agree. also want to emphasize how important what nhwr said is.

My experience is limited but the way I look at it at this point is that European vets tend to look at the horse as it is right now, and American vets try to be somewhat predicting the future, and trying to state, will this continue to progress. I think a great many of them are very good at doing that, but I think that it is still a guess.

I turned down a horse that had ‘grade 1 1/2 - 2’ arthritic changes on xrays, that were identified by the european vet, but not regarded as any problem.

The two american vets both pointed out early changes they were worried about. They both pointed out different changes.

I’ve also had a novice American vet do what I think was misidentify changes on an xray - saying a perfectly sound horse had sesamoiditis and several other similar conditions in the hind ankles, where a more experienced vet said, ‘no, that’s not anything’.

I think it takes a great deal of skill to be predictive. The vet has to be comparing the changes he sees to hundreds or thousands of xrays he’s already seen, on horses whose progression he has followed. It does appear that a vet can look at an xray and make a very educated guess about whether a process is ‘active’(still progressing) or ‘done’.

I have bought horses with questionable stuff but it all depends on how hard they need to work and what their intended use is.

[Joanne]

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3384699]
On the bright side, the horse managed to find its way to a dream home from a horsie perspective. And she is producing jaw-dropping foals that are her spitting image. One in particular, an ET filly, is fascinating to watch as she has the exact same very distinctive and beautiful canter as her biological mom. It is very cool to see just how heritable certain traits are, particularlly in the ET context where the foal is raised by the recipient mare.[/QUOTE]

It sounds like the purchase wasn’t a complete waste of time and money, bringing in bloodlines that couldn’t be found here in the US, or rare for the US, and producing jaw-dropping foals. Since I most likely will be traveling to look at Quaterback fillies in Germany in the future, I am reading all of this with interest. I will plan to bring a vet with me and hopefully work with the verbands so I won’t get taken like Bellfleur was.

Bellfleur: Do you have a web site?

[Dune]

@Dune;3379354

Exactly what kind of horse were you trying to purchase? Where the disconnect occurs for me is that I think you mentioned the word schoolmaster (if I remember correctly, although quite honestly this whole thread is a bit of a blur) in the same context as a couple hundred thousand dollars. Were you really trying to simply find a schoolmaster for that amount of $$ or were you looking for something to make you competitive on a higher level (ie nationally, internationally)…what were your goals? You said you rode the horse, I’m assuming you’re a very experienced rider, is that true? Could you not feel then that the horse was lame? With that amount of damage to the soft tissue, could you really not palpate that in the legs?

Bellfleur, these are the questions that have not been answered.

[quote=Bellfleur;3383541]My vet here in the US was definitely not involved with the German sellers in any way! He saw X-Rays that were fairly normal for a horse of that age and level of training.

That’s interesting, so the x-rays were fairly normal, it ended up being soft tissue injuries that limited her career?

In the future I would spend the money and import my own vet after the horse passed some sort of preliminary exam in Germany and I would have my vet looking over the German vets shoulder the whole time. Plus I would always be on site for any future vet exams.

It’s good to know that this experience, as horrible as it’s been, has not changed your mind about shopping abroad.

Dune I am not sure what other questions I have not answered for you?

See above.

Clearly you cannot be upset with Yankee Lawyer for sticking up for me since you seem to think I am the biggest fool on the planet.

I’m not upset with ANYone here and I do not think you are the biggest fool on the planet. Sheesh, what would it matter anyway, who cares? At this point folks are trying to learn from your experience. Can we please get over the emotionality of all this and deal with that facts only?

She is a top attorney and gives knowledgeable advice from a legal perspective. Plus she has a lot of tact and class while presenting her viewpoint in a well thought out intelligent, logical way with supporting examples. She may try and sway you with her arguments but she does not berate people for not sharing her viewpoint.

I haven’t shared her viewpoint and have felt berated (remember now, she agrees with you;)), but it doesn’t matter as I don’t take things that are written on this BB personally. And she and I can take that up, you two don’t need to “tag team” me. I addressed a post to YOU, I figure you can answer. I address a post to HER, I figure she can answer. It’s very simple.

As to why I purchased this particular mare I needed bloodlines, brins and movement for use as an embryo transfer donor (since I do some breeding) and an FEI schooled mount to continue my riding education on.

What is “brins”? So maybe this question was answered, she was purchased to be a schoolmaster (and ET donor) NOT a competition mount. If that is the case, I can see maybe where things went awry.

I went to purchase one and thought the money I was spending was sufficient

OK, here is where I think things might’ve gone awry. If you can please keep emotions in check and answer above questions thoroughly and thoughtfully, I think we can help more people.

[/quote]

[quote=slc2;3384472]i would hope instead of getting defensive, ALL buyers who have been ripped off would welcome questions like this.

some questions may seem dumb or self evident, but i think it is fantastic to see people learning from the experience of others and asking questions - alot of questions.

hopefully the word will get spread around more and more, and no, i don’t think the message can be ‘watch out for joe’, rather, it should be, have a procedure you always follow, no matter who it is, a procedure that protects the buyer.
[/quote]

Very smart post.

[quote=Joanne;3385294]It sounds like the purchase wasn’t a complete waste of time and money, bringing in bloodlines that couldn’t be found here in the US, or rare for the US, and producing jaw-dropping foals.

Sounds like she is fulfilling at least half of what you wanted her to do. Congrats on that!

[/quote]
l

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

@Joanne;3385294

Since I most likely will be traveling to look at Quaterback fillies in Germany in the future, I am reading all of this with interest. I will plan to bring a vet with me and hopefully work with the verbands so I won’t get taken like Bellfleur was.

We are actually getting quite a few Quaterback babies in THIS country, so you may not have to go thru those problems. :winkgrin:

[Bellfleur]

The GP mare mentioned in all of my previous posts may even have a Quaterback foal herself next year via embryo transfer. There you go German, but bred here!! AND you do not get much better than an FN ranked international GP dam for your foal.

Unfortunately, I am selective about who my offspring go to. I do not just sell to anyone that happens to have the checkbook balance.

Dune It seems you have a fairly broad knowledge base to draw on so why would you need any information I have posted here is beyond me. Much less additional information? Some of your questions do not concern anyone but me and are slightly rough around the edges.

BRIN was meant to be Brain. I left out a letter and did not pick it up before I published. I would think most people would recognize from the context of the sentence and would be able to fill that one in on their own.

My budget was just that. The top dollar I was willing to spend on a mare for me to compete. I hate showing but realize it is part of our sport and it is something it will do me personally a lot of good to get over hating. I was picking a mare that had so much presence herself that no one would even notice me sitting up there if I rode her down centerline. When I saw this mare she looks at you like she owns the entire world and she should!

Plus I needed a mare that had enough confidence and experience on her own that when I had the stop breathing panic attack on the way into the ring she would handle it and not take advantage of it or get scared herself.

And yes, actually I am a fairly decent rider (I usually can keep the horse on the bottom side and stay on the topside ) and I do hope to go to the Olympics someday. Low 60s at 4th, schooled PSG / I1 and all GP movements but many years ago now, hence the search for an FEI mare.

I currently have a 7 yr old mare (and she is 17.3 so she was not started until she was 4 and then had another year off!) that only needs her changes to be able to compete at 4th. I bred and trained (other than starting her which I am getting a bit long in the tooth to do now)her myself. I have been told by two top American riders that she is beautifully trained and ridden. Have I made mistakes yep but not so many and she is exceptionally rideable.

OH LET ME CLARIFY !! I only want to go to the Olympics to have a front row seat and watch, NOT to canter down centerline myself.:winkgrin:

Seriously, I do hope some of the super AMERICAN bred horses I have will make it someday. I think most breeders in the US hope that one day one of theirs makes it to the very top so I am not alone. It would really make my entire life if one of the daughters of this mare makes it!!

AND yes if I wanted another mare I might consider Europe. I certainly would not look there first however nor would I work with a German agent again. I have met several people here because of this mare that I would trust to help me select another trained mare but I certainly would exhaust all avenues here first.

I think we as a group (sport-horse users) do need to support American breeders first if we (as a group of American horse people)want to continue to have a shot at having American bred horses to represent the US on the international stage.

I personally would not buy from an auction because I do not like having to give my young horse time off and then restart them because they were ridden as an auction horse at 3 or 4 years old. I went that route once and did end up with a fabulous mare however it took me a year to convince her that I did not want the biggest trot and canter she could offer with a tight back and her head “placed” behind the vertical.

I would consider Germany as a last resort to buy another upper level 9-11 yr old horse. They do have more dressage horses per acre than we do. They are NOT all uniformly started correctly either though. This was a shocking revelation for me when I went on my first buying trip to Europe. You mean they have lots of bad rider here too!!!

Because of my experience with the last mare I do not have any further wish to spend my money in Germany or even travel there. It has left an incredibly bad taste that I think may never go away. I do believe many German horse sellers view selling their left overs to the US as a sport and I am of the opinion that their legal system protects this behavior esp if you are a foreigner.

I would never start to shop in Europe, the risks and the costs are just too high. Nor would I recommend it to anyone else. I may change my mind over time and esp if the dollar gets stronger again. Right now it just does not make sense either from a financial or a risk standpoint.

I think there are some excellently bred horses in this country, that are well trained to select from. Hopefully, I will have a brilliant one of my own to compete soon so hopefully this will always be a non-issue for me in the future!

That being said if you want to buy an imported horse from Germany go for it, just be exceptionally careful.

[Donella]

I agree, there should be quite a few Quaterback foals here next year (though obviously not the same number as in Germany). I have two coming (cross my fingers they in foal) from Elite and 1A prize mares and I know of at least five other breeders with outstanding mares who have QB foals coming. Then there is Judy Yancey, whos mares are just incredible and I know she will have some coming. I see on her website right now she has put up the sexing results of the embryos that her mares are carrying.

We have imported a Friesian mare from Holland because we wanted a top quality breeding mare and in the friesian world, it is still at the point where the vast majority of horses leaving holland are not exactly cream of the crop. She was apparently well trained and a maiden mare but because she was to be bred, we werent horribly worried about vetting every inch of her body (though we did do xrays et). I am glad we bought her as she is just incredible and we would never be able to find one like her here for sale, but wow, their idea of 4th level is about my idea of a wild training level. Anyways, I would import another mare for breeding IF I could not find a particular bloodline here (ie sires semen doesnt freeze…Hohenstein, Florestan ect) or if I were there for a long period of time and got to know a particular horse ect. Otherwise, I would prefer to take much less of a risk and shop here.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Donella;3386430]
Anyways, I would import another mare for breeding IF I could not find a particular bloodline here (ie sires semen doesnt freeze…Hohenstein, Florestan ect)Hohenstein, Florestan ect) .[/QUOTE]

Ahem, I have a foal on the way out of a Hohenstein mare ; ).

[talloaks]

[quote=Donella;3386430]
I agree, there should be quite a few Quaterback foals here next year (though obviously not the same number as in Germany). I have two coming (cross my fingers they in foal) from Elite and 1A prize mares and I know of at least five other breeders with outstanding mares who have QB foals coming. Then there is Judy Yancey, whos mares are just incredible and I know she will have some coming. I see on her website right now she has put up the sexing results of the embryos that her mares are carrying.[quote]

Donella, I see you are in Canada ( I was) but I sold my Quaterback filly to a person in Canada, BC actually, also the province of my birth!! Small world. She was sold at 10 days. I wish I could have kept her but we can’t keep any of our foals now due to our age!!:lol:

[Dune]

@Bellfleur;3386251

Dune It seems you have a fairly broad knowledge base to draw on so why would you need any information I have posted here is beyond me. Much less additional information? Some of your questions do not concern anyone but me and are slightly rough around the edges.

I was asking because I thought that the purpose of sharing your story was to help others and of course my questions concern only you because you’re the one with the dramatic, horrible experience to share. As a quick side note, I do think it’s great that I went from being incredibly “rude” to just “slightly rough around the edges”, although I like to think that I’m just direct. I think that it’s helpful to share both sides of the story to find out what went wrong on each end. Obviously, you were dealing with some shady characters, but there were “signs” that were missed and things that could’ve been handled differently on your end as well. :uhoh: I have a close family friend that was recently scammed in a real estate deal and lost a couple hundred thousand, and it’s a sad situation, but we all told him that he should NOT have been dealing with that person…that it sounded “hinky” from the beginning and he should get out. He didn’t listen to us and well, he’s in the same boat as you, except for that you have a nice mare for breeding. I (and I’m sure many others as well) am curious as to why such terrible injuries to the horse couldn’t be palpated or felt under saddle. Instead of going back and saying what a terrible person this dealer is (which you are perfectly entitled to and I’m ASSuming that what you say is true and correct for the purpose of this thread/post), how about sharing: “Well, I had stars in my eyes.” or “Maybe I let the person know too quickly/too early how much $$ I had to spend” or “I didn’t palpate the horse’s legs or didn’t ride it hard enough/long enough” or "I should’ve brought my trainer who is more experienced and could’ve felt the unevenness in mediums/extendeds or the hesitancy to “load” in the piaffe/passage or whatever when I just went, “Weeee!” " I dunno, I guess that’s more what I’m wondering about. I think that having that sort of information would be more helpful to folks who are, let’s face it, still going to go abroad to look for/buy horses. :yes: That’s where I’m coming from, it’s not to make you look bad, even though you seem to be convinced that’s it. I think your newfound skepticism is misplaced.

l