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Personal Experience Buying @ Hanoverian Verband Auction in Germany

Dressage
#321

Well, ya know Dune, not everybody is as incredibly smart as you obviously think you are. :slight_smile: Hindsight is always 20/20, but normal people also realize that they can’t be the expert on everything (like you) and, therefore, have to rely on the expertise of others.

It seems to me from reading Bellfleur’s account that she tried to do everything in her power to ensure a sound purchase, and that effort not only wasn’t enough, but when she sought legal recourse, there was no support from the foreign government. Now see, I read the same thing you did and that’s the impression I got… :slight_smile:

#322

Ya, Monday morning armchair quarterbacking is pretty easy, isn’t it???:lol:

#323

OK Dune In my opinion you are very rude and deliberately antagonistic. You do intend to upset and irritate people with your wording and are intentionally misleading. You also bring up things supposedly in the interest of fact finding that are none of anyones business. Plus you bring up a (clear to everyone else) typo as ‘OH what could that possibly mean’? Give me a break everyone could see right through that one. If you were a news paper you would be nothing but a cheap supermarket tabloid. You attempt to hide this negative behavior behind not having enough facts. "I am sure you are just clarifying things for everyone else here right’ I think that one is pretty easy for everyone to see through too!!!

I have attempted to give people a clear warning about shopping in a foreign country just to balance out a “Oh what a marvelous experience shopping in Germany is” post. Believe me in hindsight I think there was tons I should have done differently and trusting Gerhard Thele was one of the biggest things ever. I am just publishing what happened to me to try and prevent some other trusting person from having the same type thing happen to them.

Sometimes it is a super experience and sometimes it is fraught with risk and disappointment. I think if you are going to go, you had best have the pink glasses off and be armed with all of the bad stories so you can have that great experience. A good strong dose of skepticism is a requirement when shopping in Germany it is NOT misplaced.

#324

A good strong dose of skepticism is a requirement when shopping in Germany it is NOT misplaced.

There is no need to discriminate Germany. What happened to you can happen to you in any country, including the USA!

#325

My exact thought, horsejudge.

On the other hand, it also makes me incredibly sad to see a story like Bellfleur’s and notice that a whole Nation and all horse breeders/sellers in it cause a sour feeling with a buyer due to terrible experiences. I’ve seen both sides of the deals go South (over anxious, always-ready-to-sue Americans driving horse breeder in Germany insane - German horse breeder taking full advantage and then some more of trusting US client, who got ripped off entirely). Bad people are EVERYWHERE. Period.

I hope you find what you’re looking for Bellefleur - and I agree, you will most likely find it in the US with some digging. Because just as bad/good horse people, bad/good horses are everywhere too. Best of luck!

#326

[QUOTE=Horsejudge;3389715]
There is no need to discriminate Germany. What happened to you can happen to you in any country, including the USA![/QUOTE]

You all seem to be missing the point. Had the same thing occurred here, Bellfleur could have had legal recourse – and, in fact, a number of possible options. That has not proved to be the case in Germany for a US buyer trying to do something from here. And it is generally not feasible for people to return a horse to Germany if things do not work out - particularly if the horse was purchased for a moderate price. Who wants to pay 15 or 20K R/T to fly a horse that turns out to not be what was represented?

Finally, it is HIGHLY unlikely that what occurred in Bellfleur’s case would happen
to someone in their home country. Given that the horse was top-ranked on the FN; had she been equally well-known here SOMEONE probably would have had scoop on the horse; it is a small community. People certainly had scoop on her in Germany but didn’t bother to share the information with the foreign buyer.

As I said multiple times, that case represents the worst case scenario. It is an example of what can happen, despite all reasonable efforts of the buyer, when things go horribly wrong.

I really don’t care where people shop. But I am not going to romanticize shopping abroad any more than I would romanticize shopping here.

#327

[QUOTE=Maren;3389759]

I hope you find what you’re looking for Bellefleur - and I agree, you will most likely find it in the US with some digging. Because just as bad/good horse people, bad/good horses are everywhere too. Best of luck! [/QUOTE]

Fortunately, I don’t think Bellfleur has much farther to go than any one of her paddocks to find a dream horse. She has several youngsters going under saddle that are very special, and several more in the wings.

#328

Thanks Yankee !! Courtney has said she really liked the black son ! So maybe I will have a one really nice, well trained one. Kind of like time payments for that GP horse :smiley:

#329

[QUOTE=Bellfleur;3390066]
Thanks Yankee !! Courtney has said she really liked the black son ! So maybe I will have a one really nice, well trained one. Kind of like time payments for that GP horse :D[/QUOTE]

That one is nice. I want the chestnut mare, though ; )

#330

Ok, you know what Bellfleur, you are something else! Bad people are EVERYWHERE, which is why I was trying to pinpoint what could’ve been done differently on your end. THAT is what could help people, not just saying, “Stay away from that man or that country!”. :no: I even went to the point of sharing a personal experience, but I guess that it’s only your story that matters. You are not taking my words/questions in the vein I am writing them, which are NOT antagonistic and certainly not misleading, you are being defensive. Regarding the typo, if you had typed “bran” instead of “brin” I probably would’ve gotten it. I honestly did NOT know what you meant as I was reading quickly, give me a break…geez! :rolleyes: Unbelievable, really. It was a horrible experience, you were taken advantage of, NO DOUBT. You shared part of your experience, otherwise I never would’ve taken liberties to ask more personal questions. Personally, I believe you were very rude to post it on this thread instead of starting another one. BTW, I stand by my original assessment and I also stopped posting on this thread until you kept writing specifically to or about me, so if you’re so bothered by it all, you know what to do. OP, great article!!!

#331

If in fact that were all Bellfleur was saying, it would have taken only one sentence and not multiple, lengthy posts explaining all the gorey details with a level of candor rarely exhibited on this board. You took from those what you wanted to take from those posts. If that is all you got from them, you missed the point.

I even went to the point of sharing a personal experience

Your personal account of a family member who was victim of a sham as to which a number of other people warned him in advance is not analogous. Bellfleur did all the things she was supposed to do, has top, internationally acclaimed trainers, and did retain an agent that was reputed to be very good (as evidenced by posters here who likewise thought he was a good one). Of course, all of you would have instead flown your own entourage of vets, done head-to-toe ultrasounds, and consulted with a tarot card reader when shopping abroad. Sure.

but I guess that it’s only your story that matters.

Only according to those who insist what happened to Bellfleur could not possibly happen to them.

You shared part of your experience, otherwise I never would’ve taken liberties to ask more personal questions.

She shared all material facts. The only questions unaddressed were inflammatory and immaterial, and certainly irrelevant to anyone else who is at risk of finding themselves in a similar situation.

p.s. If you don’t like the fact that I chose to respond to your post, then I suggest that you utilize the private messaging function which is intended for use by posters who wish to direct their posts at a specific poster without input from others.

#332

I must say why anybody would believe going with the BNT secures a buyer in any way is beyond my imagination. I don’t know any of the people named by Bellfleur but from her report it pretty darn sounds as if the horse in question was so severely unsound it couldn’t be ridden and move sound at all. Then drug testing was done but apparently she seems to indicate that something fishy had been done to obscure the result?!
This would more or less involve 3 unethical people including at least one veterinarian. I can safely assure you that no veterinarian in Germany owning a prosperous practice (and I understand the vets you engaged would fit into this category) would have any interest in putting their approbation at the stakes for any such nonsense as to set up a fake bloodsample for drugtesting as a ‘favor’ to a client. And unless you have a court decision to prove your story right I would suggest you stop spreading this kind of information as it puts not only the horse industry but also the veterinary profession into a rather false light by using nothing but your own subjective view of things. I take personal issue with these claims both as a veterinarian and a breeder in Germany and must say this thread has taken some very suprising turns. It has started out with someone spending a great deal of time and effort to share what was a very profound positive experience, then took the inevitable turn of complaint over buying horses in Europe generally and now it evolved into a quite fantastic story of how someone say they spend a fortune on a horse they say had a pre-existing problem severe enough to make it deadlame while several vets have deemed it sound. Basically we witness an approved FEI veterinarian being accused of downright claiming a horse sound that was lame enough to be diagnosed as this short after it came off the plane? Very strange indeed and I am amazed CoTH let such thing happen. I’ve seen people banned from this board for much less and I must say I don’t believe any of it. Very sorry to po anybody but this is the most flakey story I’ve read in a long time.

#333

[QUOTE=Kareen;3393896]
I’ve seen people banned from this board for much less and I must say I don’t believe any of it. Very sorry to po anybody but this is the most flakey story I’ve read in a long time.[/QUOTE]

Wow, Kareen. As I said, this story is extreme and I don’t think it is representative of what many people experience when shopping abroad (or here, for that matter). But it is not made up.

#334

[QUOTE=Kareen;3393896]
I must say why anybody would believe going with the BNT secures a buyer in any way is beyond my imagination.[/QUOTE]

My point about her trainers was in response to others’ suggestions that Bellfleur did not know what she was doing. Having a top trainer who presumably is top because of their expertise and skill is indisputably an asset when looking for a horse of this caliber.

#335

How can you know it is true? Has it been published anywhere official? I’d be very interested in hearing the other side of the story. It’s not like Europe is a legally evacuated area and there are a whole branch of specialized attorneys working on the matter of international trade. Luckily I don’t have any first hand experience but even the horsey press is full of legal advice, cases are being reported upon and more often than not if the price is exceeding the six figure digits someone is involved who is not a domestic resident.
Certainly anyone trying to get a refund for a case that is unclear or the problem gets fixed with time is having more problems with a horse-purchase than they would claiming a broken wheel on a new car but this is in my opinion not so much a question of where the sale took place than an inevitable reality whenever you are dealing with live individuals rather than dead goods.
If a case was so crystal clear like the aboveoutlined appears to be and the amount was more than 100K why would one retain from filing a lawsuit to claim at least a partial refund to compensate for the loss of use?

#336

Kareen you are a voice of reason!:cool:

#337

Wow what a long involved thread. As someone who’s imported more than one horse from Germany, one being from a very well-known auction & one from a private seller, I’ve had one bad experience & one great one. At the end of the day, you can point fingers all you want at this person or that person who did this or that. But we have to take responsibility for our own purchases. No one forces anyone to buy a horse. There is always a risk. It doesn’t matter how much more money is involved, a loss is a loss. I’m with Kareen on this one. Hard to imagine a a buyer couldn’t feel something amiss when trying the horse & that all these vets risked their professional reputation & business to pass this lame horse. Maybe it was some huge clusterf**k, but a lot of stars would have to align badly for it to be as simple as the retelling makes it sound.

FWIW, it’s not just a “Europe” or “Germany” thing. My worst experience involved the sale of a horse from a BNT (a former World Cup rider now internationally known) I had been training with right here in the US. The horse wound up sadly being a total write-off despite my best intentions. It happens sometimes.

#338

[QUOTE=Alinera2;3395730]
I’m with Kareen on this one. Hard to imagine a a buyer couldn’t feel something amiss when trying the horse & that all these vets risked their professional reputation & business to pass this lame horse. Maybe it was some huge clusterf**k, but a lot of stars would have to align badly for it to be as simple as the retelling makes it sound. [/QUOTE]

Stars don’t align badly. People behave badly sometimes. There is a difference. I know the horse, the owner, and the circumstances. The vet reports seriously make you wonder whether they were shown the same horse.

And Kareen, I have no idea how you assumed that Bellfleur did not pursue legal remedies, when she and I both said that one take away from this story is that it can be very, very difficult to go after a seller in a foreign country – even with top German counsel. She was not just speculating about possible obstacles.

And why on earth would Bellfleur go to the bother of making some story up for your entertainment, especially given that the horses she produces can compete with any horse foaled in any country? You might consider the possibility that despite her candor (which apparently was not good enough for you all), there are facts she chooses not to share on a public BB. And really, there appears to be no point in doing so. Because no matter what she says, she can look forward to being labeled a fool or a liar, when she is far from being either one.

I have only had excellent experiences in my business and personal dealings with Germans (and all Europeans, for that matter). But as I have said, I don’t romanticize shopping there any more than I would romanticize shopping here (and there are plenty here I would never buy from - but at least I know who they are and if a deal were to turn out to be fraudulent you can bet I would be able to do something about it more easily than I would be able to abroad, and I do work for a top international firm).

#339

Kareen Me thinks thee doth protest too much !!

Since you suggest that this case is absolute BS, I have attached a copy of the letter from the vet in Germany prior to purchasing this mare?? These were the results I was given. I also made several phone calls to verify and clarify the findings. Too bad I do not have them recorded too.

I found out later that I should have received a several page document with the results of every flexion and every smallest problem. This NEVER happened. This one page letter and several e-mails were all I ever got.

Since the only thing I had ever purchased in Germany before were 3 yr old mares I had no way of knowing that I should have received anything else.

Once again proof that you had better know what you are doing when buying overseas or have a darn good agent.

This letter (see below was the actual copy)they sent me was the results of the pre-purchase exam. I also have the copies of the e-mails I sent after receiving this letter asking the vet if there was ANY reason to question the soundness of this mare since there were flexion irregularities.

This letter clearly states in the first line. The horse is sound in eyes, wind and limbs.:eek:

Being American and a native speaker of the English language I took sound of limb to mean just that. Yes, she had some evidence of being worked hard but that she was sound. What part of this is confusing or misleading to the readers of this board. I also specifically questioned the vet about the flexions. The response was QUOTE “In a mare of the age and training some positive on the flexions expected. She is sound for you”

I have the results here from the FEI Vets here in the states. In Writing they state she is lame from old injuries with scar tissue to her suspensories and her deep flexor tendons and her back muscles are in spasms from trying to get her weight off her front feet! plus she has Pedal Osteitis which is clearly NOT mentioned anywhere on this ‘vet report’.

How did these conditions not show up with the German vet??? Can we say malpractice if it was here in the US???

I also have the letter from the other professional horse people who made legal written statements about the condition of this mare upon her import. Including a letter from a person who was just out in CA riding in the qualifier for our Olympic team. Believe me he knows an unsound FEI horse when he sees one AND he can recognize an old injury and a new one. She had multiple pre-existing soft tissue injuries. Period! SHOULD I HAVE BROUGHT HIM WITH ME to look at and ride the horse? In hind sight YES YES YES. Unfortunately I never met him until the American vet here was trying to get me to jog her for him in FL when she first arrived.

So, I am NOT misleading anyone. I have proof.

You cannot possibly be telling me that the person I bought this mare from in Germany had no idea this mare was unsound??? The vet had no idea and no responsibility to tell me?? The agent had none either??

Is that is the kind of duty to a client that you are defending?

I will repeat myself yet again. They intentionally defrauded me! They knew this mare was not sound and had no chance of ever being that way.

The reason they HID THE FACT that this was a well known up and coming GP mare in Germany was for no other reason than I would have known that even the six figure price I was paying would not be enough for an International GP mare.

The ONLY question I have is IF the owner knew the mare was being sold as a riding/competition horse or if she thought she was being sold as a broodmare only. And did Gerhard Thele just pocket the difference?? She spoke almost no English and I stupidly did not speak German!

Are you trying to tell me that this is the type of vetting report that normally is sent with a purchase of a horse from Germany?? If so you are the one that has problems with the truth.

You might be angry with this being reported on this board but when this type thing happens I think the AMERICANS here in the States need a heads up that it is really hard to pursue a case in Germany from here and that it is not all peaches and creme to purchase a horse overseas. (since this happened in Germany that is what I am reporting on! i am not just discriminating against Germany) I certainly paid enough for everyone to learn from my experience!

If this case could be pursued here in the US I would be able to petition the courts to FORCE them with a subpoena to provide ALL DOCUMENTED VET WORK ON HER for her entire life. Plus any documented withdrawals from any competitions. This was NEVER offered as an option in Germany!!!

Plus I would be able to hire a fact finding company so that I could get depositions from every person that ever worked with her, saw her or knew her. Try being an American and achieving that goal in Germany!!

I am NOT the only person that has been shafted by purchasing in Germany and not been able to seek legal remedy. When this happened to me, many people with a lot more money than I have said Good Luck trying to get a dime back!!

I would think you would be horrified that something happened in Germany and offer to help not be angry with me when the story comes out.

I guess you think I should hide this??

This board should only present the fun trips to Germany where the buyers in question came back with lovely horses??

AND DUNE : Not that this concerns you or the rest of this board in the slightest, the reason I was not back in Germany for a lot of this was that I was in and out John’s Hopkins. You have heard of the huge medical center in Baltimore?? The doctors there would not allow me to leave the state much less the country. At that point they were trying to talk me into chemo therapy!

I was buying this mare because I was told I had less than ten years to live so I did not have time to bring one along any more(I think I still have the letter on that one too!!) and I wanted something to compete FEI on, NOT go to the Olympics or even GP. I was told they would take care of everything and I STUPIDLY believed and TRUSTED these people that were paid a ton of money to do their jobs ethically and with honor.

I rode this mare exactly once (she was fabulous that time and she was clearly NOT lame) in Germany and could not return to all of the wonderful things that you so clearly state I should have done!! This is MISSING PIECE that you have been searching so diligently for. Something Yankee Lawyer knew, that really did not concern you, now did it. I am sure you would have done things differently if you were me (in 20/20 hindsight). You probably think I should have waited to get better or just give up??? Christ I wish I had done something differently too. Where were you when I needed you?

What should have happened is I should have been able to trust a top FEI VET and a German agent. AND when they proved to be crooks I should have had recourse of the legal system in Germany for restitution.

So the only thing I can take out of this is the experience and I want other AMERICANS to learn from it also. It cost a small fortune so I figure it should serve as warning for huge numbers of people.

Do I think Auctions are a safer way to go yes. Perfect NO!! Be careful.

Do I think all German’s are crooks?? NO NO NO I certainly do not. I firmly believe that there are many more brilliant, ethical, honorable people in Germany than there are crooks. I am only warning people that shop overseas that there are problems (we look like marks and even the best, most experienced of us can and have gotten taken!)and that you will not have the recourse to a legal system that we have here when someone does con you.

AND yes the mare was a six figure purchase. In case you wonder I have proof of that also.

[B]EQUINE SPORTS MEDICAL CENTRE
Dr. Peter F. Cronau
FTA für Pferde
FTA für Chirurgie

Nevelstr. 71
D-44795 Bochum
Germany
E-Mail
cronau @csi.com
F 0049-234-94332-0
J 0049-234-94332-66
Dr. Peter F. Cronau — Nevelstr. 71 — D-44795 Bochum — Germany
12/02/2005
Veterinary Report
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN
This is to certify that the 10 year old mare “-Deleted-” has been examamied on 12/01/2005 at the Equine Sportsmedical Centre in Bochum.

The horse is sound in eyes, wind and limbs.

The flexion tests of both front toes were postive during flexion, the right one as well slightly when trotted. Flexion tests of the hind limbs did not reveal abnormalities. In riding the horse did show neither gait irregularity nor lameness.

X-rays were done as asked for. A video was made by Mr. Thele. Both tendon sheaths of the front digits were prominent. The right front heel was contracted.

Breeding soundness examination was performed including ultrasonography. The exam did not reveal any significant pathologic changes. A uterine biopsy was not performed.

Blood samples (CBC, serum chemistry, cortisol, medication test) have been taken.
Results of which will be forwarded when completed.

With kind regards.

  • For the Equine Sports Medical Center -[/B]
#340

They say right there in the report that she failed both front flexions and that she trotted away lame in the right front, and that her front tendon sheaths were abnormally enlarged, and that the one foot was contracted. Acquired contraction of one foot is usually from weight being taken off the foot due to long term lameness.

The vet report doesn’t really seem to conceal anything at all. It’s all right there.

I think I need to go rinse out some socks. LOTS OF SOCKS.

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