Personal Experience Buying @ Hanoverian Verband Auction in Germany

[Fantastic]

I don’t get it - what was there not to miss? Clear as day the letter states the horse tested positive in the front flexions, especially was lame on the right. Prominent tendon sheaths indicates issues with the soft tissue and ligaments. Right ontracted heel (same one that flexed lame) - is also clear that there is a more serious issue going on on the right front leg.

So, I am confused about what was kept secret and not reveiled about the horse?

Regarding the GP level and success of the horse, those scores can be easily obtained and the horses competition history known before purchasing the horse.

[DownYonder]

Let’s not forget the famous case of Poetin, whose serious soundness issue was masked by drugs so she could be re-sold at a DUTCH auction. Her last owner, the Frenchman Xavier Marie, paid 900,000 Euros for a lame horse that had to be euthanized three months later due to severe laminitis. Luckily, Marie resides in Europe and was wealthy enough to pursue legal action, which was successful and he was able to recoup some of his expenses.

But again - this kind of stuff can happen ANYWHERE. I know people who have been shafted BIG TIME buying horses right here in the good ol’ USA - including one who bought a horse from a fairly well known breeder/importer in Michigan, who incidentally had bought the horse from Gerhard Thele. Hard to say in that case where the cover-up began (in Germany or in Michigan), but the horse passed through the hands of six different trainers within three years before finally ending up being donated to a college, where he can be lightly ridden on occasion only by the instructor due to unpredictable explosive behavior caused by several old injuries that were found only by extensive diagnostics at one of Kentucky’s top equine clinics. :no:

[slc2]

But that’s not what happened here.

This vet exam is VERY clear. VERY.

Socks. Must rinse out socks.

[siegi_b]

Which part of “this horse is sound in eyes, wind and limbs” do some of the folks here not understand??? Why doesn’t anybody question that statement by the vet that did the exam?

Any horse that has been trained to GP will have some findings, that’s why it’s important to get the “conclusion of findings” from the attending vet. In this case the conclusion was that the horse is SOUND in eyes, wind and LIMBS.

Apparently the high-level horse folks that “helped” Bellfleur with this purchase didn’t find anything wrong with those findings, either.

Why is it that a person that admits she’s not an expert and then pays good money to get expert help is still to blame when things go wrong? Are you folks out there really so smart that you can always make your own evluations? You’re telling me that even when you get ready to spend a six-figure amount on something you feel confident enough to rely on your own opinion when interpreting medical findings?

You guys never cease to amaze me… and slc, why don’t you stuff those socks!

[Bellfleur]

I clearly should have posted here before purchasing her. Again my point in posting this.

Everyone in Germany did tell me that she was sound or I would not have bought her. Even I could have figured that one out.

I am supposed to deduce that she was lame from that letter?

Was I told that a horse could have positive flexions AND still be serviceably sound??? YES. I DID ASK TOO! Why else would I have gone ahead and purchased her for the full price?

Would I ever accept a horse with slightly positive flexions again no matter how sound. NO. Is this fair to another seller, probably not.

If you take a horse to say Kent Allen (top FEI vet) in this country and he would vet this mare, his vet report and all conversations would clearly state this mare is not sound and has no chance of becoming that way. There should have been no ambiguity about this mare’s vetting at all!

She is not now sound and will never be a sound again. Period. That is what should have been stated on her report. PERIOD, Nothing else.

Why if everything was above board would it state she was sound of limb?? with slightly positive flexions? What the h_ll is that?? This mare has way more than “slightly positive flexions” She is 4 legged lame ALL OF THE TIME! The American vets that saw her immediately on import could not get her to trot even one sound step on any of her legs.

The vet report states SLIGHTLY POSITIVE FLEXIONS and you read completely lame? You are way more suspicious than I was or have way more experience with GP horses. If it had not said she was sound in two other places I might have agreed with you but it did not.

I was told and took it at face value (Ok scream idiot here!) that it was what they said “sound to ride with some SLIGHT positive flexion, normal in a horse of her level of work and age”

I am curious now about how many GP horses are out there that are still competing where a flexion test would come up completely negative.

The German vet also states that she was sound with “neither gait irregularity nor lameness.”

So if the vet on site saw nothing then how would you expect me to see/feel something? And if they saw nothing then how come the drug tests came back negative? So how come my lawyer in Germany could not get more of the blood to be retested? And when he couldn’t why wasn’t something done? Subpoena ??

Yes she had some swelling but there are tons of schoolmasters out there with very ugly legs that are still serviceably sound. This mare is so lame she is completely unsafe to ride at all. It would have been exceptionally cruel to continue to try too.

I am not really clear on why some people here feel I should not present a warning about the vettings in Germany and the language barrier or the legal system and the difficulty of an American using it? It is way easier to con someone under these circumstances.

None of this stuff would have been worded this way had the vet actually been working for me. Nor would it have happened in the US without severe legal and malpractice ramifications.

Also I know that Gerhard Thele KNEW from being present at the vetting that this mare was lame. It is why he conveniently “messed up” the video. He acted said Oh you know I cannot work these things and I the fool believed him. Jeez I thought he was working for me too! He lied to me about what he saw at the vetting and what he knew about this mare. He smiled the whole time too. He smiled all the way to the bank.

My problem with this all is an issue of trust when purchasing a horse overseas. I published that. i want other people to go there with their eyes completely open. I wish I had.

Of course if I saw a slightly positive flexion now I would immediately turn the horse down. Kind of hard way to learn, so why shouldn’t other people shopping in Germany have the same warnings??? I am not sure on why the arguments are here ??

Another question? Why would I think to look for a super show record?? If I was the seller I would have been bragging about it. It would not occur to me that someone would hide this information from me so why would I look for it?

For someone to have known to check for all of this stuff they would have had to have had or heard of this experience. No one warned me before I went, so I am sharing. I am unsure why some of you feel I should not have shared this nightmare experience.

Yes In hindsight I should have done a lot of things differently. Do I think my trusting these people incredibly stupid. YEP.

Do I think it was easily understandable as to why this happened YES. Could it and has something similar happened to others when purchasing overseas YES!

If I did not I would not be here looking an idiot to all so I could warn other Americans about purchasing carefully.

I totally thought that an FEI vet of this caliber should be trusted to tell me if a horse I am attempting to purchase is sound or not. It should not have mattered whether this vet was here or there.

I also thought Gerhard Thele completely trustworthy and from what some other here write he obviously has had other shady dealings.

When some top dressage professionals that unfortunately, I did not meet until after her purchase, (and believe me I am embarrassed to admit some very high level dressage trainers here in the states do know of this story!So the rest of this board knows who cares now:o) here heard about this they just took two fingers and rubbed them together behind their backs. Anyone else here know what that means. Several said YES the vet was ‘for sale’. It does happen.

And you know what they all told me this kind of thing does happen and they were angry about me being taken. They were not criticizing me after the fact about what I should and should not have known.

A quote from one of our Olympic team members “I hate when I hear of situations like this, and I hear of them a lot. Please let me know if there is anything I can ever do to help in any way” none of them thought I was stupid, just naive and trusting and that the German’s saw me coming and knew there would be no repercussions from their behavior.

I was just not warned clearly enough about the risks of buying a horse in Germany.

The rider of this mare had to know this mare was unsound. This vet in Germany had to know this mare was unsound. Gerhard Thele certainly had to know this mare was unsound. He is an excellent horseman he just used that knowledge to con me into purchasing this mare.

You can call me stupid all you want but this was hidden from me and yes they did conspire to hide it from me to get this lame mare sold for a lot of money. AND it has happened to more people than just me!!!

Maybe they are just not willing to look like fools in public and I could care less. I think if this warning serves even one person it is worth the personal cost of me talking about it in public.

The top honest, ethical sellers and auctions in Germany will not be worried nor will the vets. The only ones that will have a problem will be the ones that would behave like this anyhow. They would not want people to come armed with the knowledge ahead of time to prevent this.

Take this warning or don’t. Just try to stop Monday quarterbacking saying I should have known this and that. Yeah I should have.

Someone else on this board should have warned me.

Unfortunately, it is the school of hard knocks unless of course you read this post before you go shopping for your next horse in Germany.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;3396642]

Why is it that a person that admits she’s not an expert and then pays good money to get expert help is still to blame when things go wrong? [/QUOTE]

It irritates me to see so much of that happening on this board and in the horse world in general. I guess a lot of folks think they are so special nothing bad will ever happen to them.

[slc2]

Siegi, the statements you made about buying horses - you might want to qualify - it can be read several ways.

I NEVER SAID THIS GIRL WAS TO BLAME.

She said right at the beginning that the seller discounted the vet report. She was told the findings were unimportant.

The problem with the situation is exactly what EVERYONE SAID WAY WAY AT THE BEGINNING - she put too much trust in the seller/selling agent. She gets a bad vet report, he discounts it, she buys the horse. That was the problem.

There is no indication in the report of a blood test, or its results, either. That would have sent me running the other way.

Clearly, the horse was done something to before it came for the vet exam, if it’s 4 legged lame a few days later when it gets shipped to the USA.

Either it just happened to feel better that day, or it was helped to feel better.

The horse doesn’t have to be drugged.

If there’s going to be a blood test at the vet exam, what some sellers will do is simply not work the horse for a week before it goes to the prepurchase exam. “I can’t get the prepurchase done for <fill in number of days>” is a bad sign. The vet should be present when the buyer is there, right when the horse is tried out, to draw blood in front of the buyer, let the buyer write down the tracking number, etc.

A very simple way to have MANY horses appear to have no problems or just very slight problems during the vet exam.

That could cause exactly the results you saw - without the risk of having a positive blood test.

She says the horse is 4 legged severely lame; the vet said it was not lame to gait, but that it was positive on flexions.

What does that mean to us? The horse was probably medicated or just not worked.

I actually have seen people do this - the horse goes to the prepurchase as high as a kite, because it hasn’t worked in a week or two. Gaits off nice, only slightly positive on the flexions.

The wording may have thrown her off - I know someone who said, ‘Oh look, positive flexion, that’s great! No problem there!’.

I’ve never talked to a seller who DIDN’T minimize anything found on a prepurchase, to be honest, with everything from ‘oh, he’s had that for years and it’s’ never bothered him’ (which may or may not be true), to ‘you won’t work him hard enough to make that matter’ (ditto) to ‘the vet is wrong’ (ditto).

I disagree with the statement of Bellfleur’s that the vet did not report findings - what I can agree with is that the European vets very, very rarely interpret the findings the way American vets often do. That practice tends to, in effect, minimize findings in the buyer’s mind - IF the buyer does not engage their own (disinterested party) vet to provide an interpretation.

EVEN THEN - the American vet is usually, still not going to tell you to buy or not buy a horse, regardless of findings. You still have to make the final decision. My vet tells me, ‘there’s this, there’s this, there’s that’, he may go a little further than the european vet in predicting the effects long term, but he still isn’t going to say buy or not buy.

And - sorry - I’m not going to agree with you that these are ‘a few little things’ on a vet report typical of a ten year old horse. THis is just a BAD vet report that the seller made light of.

The ‘few little things’ would be some age-appropriate arthritic changes, windpuffs, various healed injuries as verified by MY vet as not-a-problem, and benign, ‘quiet’ tendon thickenings not accompanied by positive flexions, contracted feet, etc.

I’ve got a horse with 3 legs the insurance company won’t cover TOO! But my vet has gone over those 3 legs in detail and verified that what’s there is very unlikely to cause any problems - the horse also was sound for 12 years of very hard work with those ‘things’. All ‘things’ are not created equal.

[Kareen]

Absolutely agree. More socks to be laundered here…
This report doesn’t say ‘clean, go ahead and buy’ at all. When you talked to him did Dr. Cronau know you were intending to ride the horse or was he assuming she was purchased for breeding only?
Also when you say she had pedal osteitis how was she diagnosed as such if not based on radiographs and why did your home veterinarian initially did not mention any abnormalty on the radiographs. Pedal osteitis is something that rather clearly shows on x-rays and if there can be any clearer sign for underlying pre-existent soft tissues than excessive tendon-sheath filling AND positive flexions on both front feet I’d be very interested to hear how you can ‘fail’ a PPE on a more impressive level?!
Did you go after the agent personally or try to alter the purchase for the better? Did the agent function as the seller or did the original owner? When I agent I mostly function as a buyer in the middle to prevent my customers from having to run after some private occasional seller who can make himself ‘untouchable’ much easier than a professional business like mine. Also private sellers may easily forget important things by way of mere ignorance or lack of knowledge whereas I would claim for myself that I am quite profoundly aware of the loopholes, information gaps and ‘intended miscommunications’ possible in horse-sales.
Legal approaches or accusations against this vet are rather hopeless as he very clearly outlined abnormal findings that should have rung a bell in any experienced horse person’s head to either stay away alltogether or at least conduct further diagnostic procedures prior to finalizing a sale.
What role this agent person played in the scenario I can not know. If others have had bad experiences maybe it is time to communicate with one another and go after that particular person.
But this vet report clearly states significant findings. And no it is not uncommon for veterinary reports to be this short here. Normally a detailed protocol is used to write down all the findings, then reproduced for the records. Then if the customer isn’t German there will be a certificate written in English much like this one.
Veterinary records must be kept for as long as 30 yrs here so when a claim (malpractice or else) is filed, they must be provided as required by the court.

[siegi_b]

Kareen,

how would you translate the statement “the horse is sound in wind, eyes and legs” into German?

Siegi

[YankeeLawyer]

Kareen, How do you explain the declaration in the vet report that "The horse is sound in eyes, wind and limbs."

Is this simply a language barrier? I am genuinely curious as, in my opinion, European vets generally do get the “big picture” in terms of evaluating a horse better than US vets do, in the sense that they understand that no horse is perfect and seem to be more willing to look at an issue and give an assesment as to whether that issue means anything, as a practical matter, with respect to the suitability of the horse for its intended purpose. Thus, for example, in this country, if a PPE reveals a small OCD, people practically run screaming from the barn, whereas vets abroad might be more willing to say that despite that OCD, the horse is sound because it is located in such a place that it is unlikely to affect any joint or whatnot (here people frequently would have a horse on the operating table to remove even asymptomatic chips). So frankly, I would be inclined to trust the conclusion of a German vet who has experience evaluating high performance horses (I also trust my own vet here, as he and I are on the same page with what we think is acceptable / not acceptable).

I think some amount of wear and tear is to be expected in a 10 year old confirmed GP horse. This was not a horse that was just schooling the movements occasionally at home with some amateur rider. To me, the letter says that despite some positie findings – NONE of which impacted the mare’s soundness under saddle – according to the vet-- "The horse is sound in eyes, wind and limbs."

Have you never seen a horse test positive ion flexions and nevertheless never take a lame step under saddle in its entire competitive career? I have; I owned one; a Nations Cup winning GP jumper. Except he FAILED his PPE miserably. The vet was unequivocal about that. We proceeded with the purchase because I knew the horse’s history and knew that despite his issues he had stayed sound and was not drugged.

And how do you explain no mention of Pedal Osteitis, which should have been clearly visible on the radiographs (as I recall the mare also happens to have extensive scar tissue near her spine, also not mentioned anywhere in the vet report).

Also, you state, “This report doesn’t say ‘clean, go ahead and buy’ at all.” Do German vet reports typically state something other than “the horse is sound in wind, eyes and legs” to indicate a green light to buy? Truly, I am curious. Because barring including a statement literally saying something like “This horse is 100% sound for its intended purpose [and specifying that purpose] and nothing in the examination indicates a reason not to buy the horse”, I have no idea what more of sign than “the horse is sound in wind, eyes and legs” a buyer is supposed to expect to see in a PASSING PPE report?

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Kareen;3396724]

Veterinary records must be kept for as long as 30 yrs here so when a claim (malpractice or else) is filed, they must be provided as required by the court.[/QUOTE]

Is that true for all equine veterinary records, not just PPE reports? In other words, do these doc retention requirements apply to a horse’s ordinary veterinary records as well?

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

A confirmed GP schoolmaster is bound to not have clean legs or flexions IMO. The buyer trusted her paid professionals to evaluate the findings to come to a conclusion. I do question if the vet was told that this was a riding horse purchase. In the US, a horse is sound “for a purpose”, so did he consider her “broodmare sound”?

This is a very scary situation, and I hope bellfleur can get past this to take care of her health. It is sad to think that “selling to Americans” is a sport. I have heard so many times the statement, “stupid American women”. We are not stupid, but clearly out of our expertise dealing with dishonest people.

[slc2]

there may be many GP schoolmasters who have clinical problems of some ah…‘majorness’, and people buy them, but I bet they don’t buy them for the same price horses without those problems are going for. And to be honest, this horse is 10, how much do you think you can overlook because it’s a YOUNGER GP horse, rather than 18-20? And ah…I don’t buy that you can tolerate a WHOLE LOT MORE serious unsoundness in a GP ten year old than in a youngster.

how do you interpret the statement?

“soundness” in germany may or may not be a well defined legal concept with a list of ‘reportable’ disorders that must be disclosed.

but in ANY country where ‘soundness’ has any legal definition, it has absolutely nothing to do with determining if a horse is suitable for advanced riding sport.

i would interpret it as completely irrelevant to determining the suitability of a horse to advanced dressage sport.

the horse was not presented gaiting abnormally at the exam, did not have respiratory obstruction and appears to be able to see.

I interpret the statement to indicate the horse was sound at the time of the exam, sound meaning ‘not currently lame’ - not 3 legged lame during the exam. The first part confirms that at the time, the horse was not gaiting abnormally and was not showing an obvious clinical symptoms.

And as I said, this can be very truthful - all thele had to do was not work the horse for a week or so. he’d go to the exam ‘sound’.

But even despite that, the more detailed examination of the feet and legs is what disqualifies the horse from being used as a riding horse for demanding advanced sport riding.

The vet appears to report exactly what he saw - quite truthfully. And it does appear that he was trying to tell you something, that the horse was not to him suitable for avanced riding purpose, even without him seeing the xrays.

I have to agree with Kareen on this one.

Frankly, I would interpet the statement as completely unimportant in the context or a horse to be purchased for active riding at the Grand Prix level. The riding usefulness I’d determine based on the POSITIVE FLEXIONS, CONTRACTED HOOF, TENDON ABNORMALITIES.

It’s an odd situation. Bellflower and Yankee Lawyer insisting they were duped by an extremely elaborate conspiracy, and then we see this vet report.

I don’t see an elaborate conspiracy. I see something much more common - and frankly - much, much more scary.

I see how very, very easy it is for a seller to take advantage of an eager, trusting customer - without conspiring with a vet at all.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

Bellfleur, did you have a verbal discussion with the vet, in addition to the report? or emails? Or whas the communication all thru G Thele?

[YankeeLawyer]

@slc2;3396912

But even despite that, the more detailed examination of the feet and legs is what disqualifies the horse from being used as a riding horse for demanding advanced sport riding.

SLC2, except that the horse WAS being used in competition at the GP level, and the vet report confirms soundness under saddle, in fact declared the horse SOUND. And the pedal osteitis? What about that?

It’s an odd situation. Bellflower and Yankee Lawyer insisting they were duped by an extremely elaborate conspiracy, and then we see this vet report.

I never said I was duped, and I do not represent Bellfleur (though seriously you guys are making me want to). I do agree with Bellfleur that she was defrauded by the seller, and that the vet report facilitated that fraud.

I see how very, very easy it is for a seller to take advantage of an eager, trusting customer - without conspiring with a vet at all.

Vets and top trainers here disagree with your and Kareen’s assessment, as does a top lawyer in Germany with experience in the horse industry at the highest levels. That may very well be because they know more details; my God I have no idea what you people expect to be disclosed on a public BB to make the point. Take the story as a warning or choose to be pollyannaish and keep your pink glasses on. It makes no difference to me, and likely makes none to Bellfleur either. Her only intent in sharing her story was to prevent someone else the heartache she has endured. So, if you are all so perfect and have so much expertise and a crystal ball, you really won’t be needing an agent, trainer, or vet when you go out to buy a horse well into the six figures as your GP mount.

(I also wonder how many have you have ever reviewed a vet report of a confirmed GP horse; I doubt many have given some of the comments here).

I am genuinely curious, though, about Kareen’s take on the conclusion of the report, and whether one should expect to see even more unequivocal language in the report.

And btw, when I do a PPE, I ALWAYS make sure the vet is aware of and understands my plans for the horse in terms of use, and ask specifically that the horse be evaluated for soundness in terms of its suitability for that use. That is basic; I have never done a PPE and not told the vet my intentions right up front. And when there is any finding, I ask the follow up question of what, if anything, that finding means in relation to my intended use of the horse. My vets --here AND in Germany, have always obliged with this assessment. I have no idea where the notion came from that a PPE is wholly divorced from the issue of the horse’s fitness for an intended use.

P.S. I never said anything about an “elaborate” conspiracy. I do think the complicity of more than one person was required to pull this off. But elaborate? No. I handle elaborate every day. This, on the other hand, is much more akin to a simple low level con by a two-bit conman. It really does not get much more simple than what occurred here.

[slc2]

Neither your nor bellflower’s accusations, insults and personal nastiness and defensiveness change one thing - There are plenty of people who would have seen that vet report, and not bought that horse nor advised anyone else to do so, on the strength of it alone. I’m one of them.

I’ve turned down horses that had less wrong with them, to be honest.

And yes, I’ve NEVER found or bought a SINGLE HORSE in all my life that didn’t have ‘something’ on its prepurchase. EVERY horse has ‘something’. EVERY purchase has risks. But we try to KNOW our risks, and assess them accurately, however much outside help that requires.

I also would have been there for the vet exam, and it would have been done by my vet, not theirs. And it would have included a blood test, and it all would have been done in 1 day.

Preferably, after deciding "I like the horse, let’s have him vetted’, I would have ridden him MYSELF if there was any gap in time between my tryout and the vet exam - so I knew MYSELF how much he was getting worked.

It’s a very, very common tactic not to work a horse at all before a prepurchase to minimize problems, the excuse given when I was working at barns usually being, ‘Well, I wouldn’t want there to be a freak accident, let’s just leave him in his stall’.

Our point is not that you or bellflower are stupid or neglegent at all - but that she needed more help in evaluating this horse, a disinterested party, right there right during the try out and vet exam, and she didn’t have it.

What EVIDENCE do I have of that? Very simple. She tried a non lame horse, and when the horse got to her, it was lame. That means she needed help in evaluating the horse that she did not have.

If you want to take that statement and twist it around into something else, go right ahead - you seem bound to anyway.

YL, if you were the one who decided how to evaluate this horse - then I understand your defensiveness. Otherwise I don’t.

Frankly, I see no evidence that this was presented to be ‘educational’ to anyone. Education involves discussion, questions, some disagreement, raising of different points not considered initially, suggesting alternative courses of action that could have been done, all of which you BOTH seem incredibly resistant to. You don’t want to discuss this or open it up to give and take - yiou want to beat your chests. I don’t really blame you, it’s a lot of money and it’s upsetting. But PLEASE - don’t come here and claim you are talking about it to help others or educate - you aren’t. That’s the thing about your posts that I think have caused you this pushback.

[YankeeLawyer]

@slc2;3397056

Our point is not that you or bellflower are stupid or neglegent at all - but that she needed more help in evaluating this horse, a disinterested party, right there right during the try out and vet exam, and she didn’t have it.

Bellfleur retained an agent who has a fiduciary duty to HER, not the seller, and this agent was indeed present at the PPE. Thele was not the seller, he was Bellfleur’s AGENT. Theoretically, she did more than have a disinterested person present; she had someone legally and contractually obligated to look out for her interests.

“you don’t want to discuss this or open it up to give and take”

It is not my place to disclose the details of this transaction. Bellfleur can choose to disclose or not to disclose whatever she wants.

• yiou want to beat your chests. I don’t really blame you, it’s a lot of money and it’s upsetting. But PLEASE - don’t come here and claim you are talking about it to help others or educate - you aren’t.

You have a nerve telling me what my intentions are. As for chest beating, or whatever, I really don’t care if any of you get anything from this story. But I will not stay silent when you all jump all over Bellfleur – and did so right from the outset, when frankly the vast majority of the people posting here probably have come no closer to doing a transaction like this than reading about one in Eurodressage. That is a fact. So if you take that as an insult or nastiness, then I all I can say is that reality bites sometimes. I have been more than patient with a lot of posts here, and have tried toi answer questions to the extent I could based on what Bellfleur has disclosed.

And seriously, some of these 20/20 hindsight “I would have X” border on the absurd. I know many people who have bought top horses in Germany who did not fly over entire posses as a support mechanism. (In fact, even when I shop here, I frequently get a recommendation from my vet for a local vet to do the PPE – I have, for example, used New Bolton on many occasions for that, although they are not my regular vets). The suggestions are particularly absurd when considered in light of the fact many are extolling Germany as a source for better quality/value. So I guess people also should factor in the cost of funding their vet’s and trainer’s European vacation as well as their own trip and import costs to the cost of the horse? That is ridiculous. Even I, who am a supporter of US breeders, would not even begin to suggest that is necessary to have an uneventful experience in Germany. Geez, I would contact Kareen or Alexandra for starters if I did not know anyone there and see if they could help me.

[Horsejudge]

Kareen: When I agent I mostly function as a buyer in the middle to prevent my customers from having to run after some private occasional seller who can make himself ‘untouchable’ much easier than a professional business like mine. Also private sellers may easily forget important things by way of mere ignorance or lack of knowledge whereas I would claim for myself that I am quite profoundly aware of the loopholes, information gaps and ‘intended miscommunications’ possible in horse-sales.

This is so unethical, I can’t even begin to grasp it. You are the vet for the horses you sell, you are also the agent/seller of the horses and exclude the real sellers from the deal in order to pocket more commission without the real sellers knowledge. You claim that “they might forget important things” but you are all so bright and honest, that you’ll know all the facts connected with a horse which you only “broker” or “agent”?

Unbelievable.

Ethically absolutely unbelievable!

As for buying a horse anywhere, get a “loss of use” insurance, it’s well worth the extra bucks and if the insurance covers the horse, you get some of the invested money back if the horse does not work out as intended. In the end, they are huge creatures with a lot of “undetectable” problems, so better safe then sorry and huge cries in the end.

And yes, as somebody said: Take some responsibility as the owner if you buy a horse - or use the money for a car or something else.

[YankeeLawyer]

I may be misunderstanding Kareen but I think she is saying she buys the horses outright and then resells them? If so, that is not unethical, though I am a little confused by the statement “When I agent I mostly function as a buyer in the middle” – maybe she is contractually assuming all the obligatons and liabilities of the real seller in her sales contracts?

Also, although she is a vet, I am not sure where you got the impression that when acting as agent or seller she also is the vet conducting the PPE. Where did she say that?

[YankeeLawyer]

@Horsejudge;3397162

As for buying a horse anywhere, get a “loss of use” insurance, it’s well worth the extra bucks and if the insurance covers the horse, you get some of the invested money back if the horse does not work out as intended. In the end, they are huge creatures with a lot of “undetectable” problems, so better safe then sorry and huge cries in the end.

That is good advice generally, but I am not sure it would have made a difference in this case.