[QUOTE=slc2;3397056]
It’s a very, very common tactic not to work a horse at all before a prepurchase to minimize problems, the excuse given when I was working at barns usually being, ‘Well, I wouldn’t want there to be a freak accident, let’s just leave him in his stall’.
.[/QUOTE]
So you are saying it is very common to commit fraud and that conduct should be assumed and excused?
[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3397295]
So you are saying it is very common to commit fraud and that conduct should be assumed and excused?[/QUOTE]
YL, you really are jumping beyond what is said here. SLC2 said it was common–only you added the “assumed and excused” part. That was not said NOR inferrred.
If it makes anyone feel any better, in spite of the hard feelings, I’ve found this thread to be incredibly educational, including the further details about the vetting and the different points of view about them. I think Belle has definitely helped a lot of other people become wary, cynical and more alert to what sort of thing could be happening. I appreciate everyone who has posted, the various questions and explanations and I’m really sorry about what happened to Belle–it’s what we all have nightmares about, trying our best to do the homework and still having a bad outcome. I’m certainly in a position right now to worry about that very thing, although in this country.
YL, I think many of the posters that are posting how THEY would have done things differently are telling the truth, but they came to their opinion AFTER Belfleur’s warning post. :lol: :lol: :lol:
So thank you Belfleur, it seems like you have in fact educated people. :yes:
MelantheLLC
Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeLawyer
So you are saying it is very common to commit fraud and that conduct should be assumed and excused?
YL, you really are jumping beyond what is said here. SLC2 said it was common–only you added the “assumed and excused” part. That was not said NOR inferrred.
No Melan, I am not “really jumping beyond what is said here.” SLC is not writing without any context here. In the context of THIS story, she provides as an explanation for the horses apparent soundness at the time of trial and vet exam is the possibility that the horse was not worked in order to make a lame horse appear sounder than she in fact was. And SLC casually stated, very matter of factly, that hey, this kind of thing (not working the horse to MINIMIZE existing issues: read HIDE preexisting conditions that adversely impact soundnress) is commonly done.
Because Bellfleur was admonished for not, as SLC would have done, going to ride the horse the day the vet exam was done (given the lapse of time between trial and vetting), the suggestion is there that Bellfleur should have assumed this apparently common tactic is a possibility – otherwise why bother to go back to try the horse again? As far as excusing it, that is suggested as well, both with the casual statement (in the nature of “hey, it’s commonly done”), and the fact that no one, including SLC, seems to be one bit perturbed by the fact that this was done by Bellfleur’s AGENT – oh no, Bellfleur should have hired a disinterested person, because the one she paid to look out for her interests was a crook.
@ Horsejudge,
I think you misunderstood Kareen’s post entirely. I’ll leave it to her to clarify, but on the whole “unethical” issue, you couldn’t be more wrong. She is by far one of the most ethical people I know in this business.
Back to topic …
[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3397454]
As far as excusing it, that is suggested as well, both with the casual statement (in the nature of “hey, it’s commonly done”), and the fact that no one, including SLC, seems to be one bit perturbed by the fact that this was done by Bellfleur’s AGENT – oh no, Bellfleur should have hired a disinterested person, because the one she paid to look out for her interests was a crook.[/QUOTE]
YL, all I can say is that as a person with no attachment to either side here, I don’t read the thread or the posts the way you do or see the inferences you do in them. It’s the internet, I guess. :sadsmile:
Thank you Maren. As far as clarification goes: I have never done and will never do a prepurchase exam on any horse I personally sell, represent for sale or intend to sell. My vet business and sales are kept strictly separate and I always have someone else perform the actual vet check. Do I use my veterinary knowledge to select them? Yes. But I never do PPE’s on horses I am involved selling 
Hope this clarifies the misunderstanding.
Re. horse ‘sound in eyes, wind and limbs’ means nothing more than the horse was not lame at the actual vetting and free of abnormal findings of the eyes and had no inspiratory breath sound.
I very well deem it possible that the vet had no information the horse was intended for riding. If there was no communication between the seller and the buyer I would expect there clear statements as to the intended purpose and state of health for the individual.
Re. pedal osteitis: I took it that Bellfleur had the radiographs evaluated by her vet in the states and they had looked ok? I remember it was very early on in the story.
I agree we should get back to the original topic and put this under an example of how someone chose the wrong person to represent themselves rather than a Europe vs. US experience.
We are seeing clearly, the pitfalls of the language barrier, trying to do business when we obviously do not understand each other.
1st with the poster that misinterpreted Kareen’s post to think she said she was doing something unethical. That was extended to YL who thought maybe Kareen was saying she purchased the horses. Then we see that a statement of the horse is sound in limbs really does not mean in Germany what it means here. To me, that statement would mean sound for the intended purpose - GP dressage, IF that was told to the seller AND vet.
Unless we are fluent in the language we are doing business with, how can we know the important details are not lost in the translation? If dealing with an agent, how can we know that the agent has in fact communicated our thoughts correctly to sellers and vets? Even if we are standing there HEARING in person, “the horse is sound”, how do we know the vet is not talking about soundness?
My conclusion to this would be, in every case, fly your vet over to do any PPE!
Flame suit zipped
What a sad story. But I think it typifies a huge issue with buying horses in Europe that has nothing to do with the Europeans. People often go there with the intent of buying a “horse of a lifetime”. They believe they are fulfilling a dream and project this like a lighthouse. That is not the best place to make a rational decision from and it certainly is a great opportunity for those who would seek to take advantage of an unsophisticated buyer. Add to this the distraction and drama that was going on with your health and I have to ask; what on earth were you thinking, Bellfluer? Not that you or anyone deserves to be ripped off, but this is just not the foundation for the kind of thinking you need to make a rational decision. Mr nhwr always tells me before I go shopping “Don’t spend more than we can lose.” and he means it. It is a sobering thought, as your experience demonstrates.
Looking at this through the lens of other transactions, the vet report looks pretty clear to me. The first comment is “The horse is sound in eyes, wind and limbs.”, yes. Because this is the first thing in the report, I would interpret that to mean that the the horse presented that way (normal with no apparent gross abnormalities) at the beginning of the exam. It was a statement of initial findings, after the cursory physical check, often used so the vet has a record from which to continue examining the horse. Upon further examination, the horse was found to be off. It says that clearly enough too and discusses additional findings that might be associated with that. Regarding the xrays; It is not uncommon for a buyer to give the examining vet a detailed list of views that their vet in the States has requested. And European vets often think this approach this is a bit of overkill. But they roll their eyes and shoot, then forward the films without comment, particularly if the point has been made that the horse has to pass muster with the US vet. If you are there to ask questions they will answer them. But why would they sign up for a pissing contest with another vet who presumably can read the films themselves and has the last word on the horse, especially if an agent (who brings them a fair amount of business) is standing at their shoulder. Make no mistake, fiduciary responsibility or no, at this point any agent is trying to get the deal done, especially if they believe their primary responsibility is to find a buyer a horse and the buyer has a US vet in the equation.
There was enough information given in the vet report to be asking questions. And it sounds like you did ask questions, Bellfleur, just not the right ones of the right people. What did your US vet say about the xrays and other findings before you bought the horse? For the amount of money involved, I would have sent my own vet over to exam the horse. Easy to say now, I know. But it is commonly done for expensive horses.
When buying a horse anywhere it pays to do your homework. You should know if the price you are paying is competitive, too high or too low and the warning bells should be ringing. With the internet, this is easy to do. I rarely work with agents but when I have I check them out with the verband and I ask direct questions. They need to have a good reputation to lose, IMO. I don’t assume that people are lying to me. But I always ask myself how would I know and what would happen if they were. This situation compounded by the language barrier. Did someone misrepresent the truth or was their translation poor? It is not always easy to know. But it certainly does open an opportunity for doubt. This should definitely be considered before crossing the pond. I thought about it a lot before I decided to go because my German is poor.
Regarding what other people here have to say about it; what would you expect them to say? Most people (except apparently me :eek: ) are too polite to tell someone that they set themselves up for a bad situation. If you tell someone they have an opportunity to make a lot of money and leave the details up to them, an outcome like this is not surprising. You didn’t deserve this. It is not right. But it is not surprising. I am truly sorry for your difficulties.
Sorry if you are offended by my plain speaking, that was not my intent. And I hope your health is good today and your horses are happy. Here or in Europe the most important thing you need when purchasing a horse is common sense and a large dose of healthy skepticism.
[QUOTE=MelantheLLC;3397690]
YL, all I can say is that as a person with no attachment to either side here, I don’t read the thread or the posts the way you do or see the inferences you do in them. It’s the internet, I guess. :sadsmile:[/QUOTE]
Melan, I don’t have time to run around and pull excerpts from all the prior posts. SLC plainly said that Bellfleur should have but failed to have a disinterested person at the vetting, and that was the source of her downfall. She also said it was common for sellers to attempt to deceive buyers as to the soundness of a horse by not working them prior to a PPE. In saying “commonly done” the implication is that Bellfleur should have been aware of that practice and taken steps beyond what she did to guard against it (whereas my advice would have been if she had any reason to think the agent or seller was pulling something like that – run far and fast and tell them to shove it).
LOL. It doesn’t MATTER if the horse was shown. PLEASE let us just get that off the table. It just doesn’t prove the horse is sound or useful NOW. If it was LAST WEEK, it doesn’t prove the horse is suitable THIS WEEK.
Look, YL, you can’t keep doing this, this is your tack, over and over. YOu take what someone said, and then add your own ‘flyer’ to the end of it, to try to discredit, deflect, ridicule and then discard what the person is saying, i think you’re really hoping no one will have read what the person actually said, and you’ll get away with it.
In other words, you are totally distorting what people are saying.
But this is how it happens. This is how these bad horses get sold. Because people rely on their emotions, instead of procedure, method and impartiality.
When you have 100,000 dollars to spend - NO ONE is your friend. Least of all the person you’re writing the check to.
Welcome to the world of money, where, as the saying goes, there are only two kinds of people - people who want to take it away from you, and you.
I said it is COMMON. THAT IS ALL I SAID.
And I say this, which you don’t STILL seem to get (and which as a lawyer, I would EXPECT you to understand) -
If you am spending a shit load of money on something, you don’t trust ANYONE any further than you can throw them - i start out with the assumption that EVERYONE is full of sh**, a lying, exaggerating, full of sh** con artist with the worst horse in the universe to unload on naive, unsuspecting MOI. That’s where you START from when you are considering writing a check for over a hundred thousand dollars for ANYTHING - hell - that’s where I start from when I write a check for ten grand for a horse! or five!
I feel terribly sorry for you, and I am devastated to hear that you lost so much money on this deal and had to go through this ordeal…and I know that it very, very easily could have been me or one of my friends - very easily. And believe me, spending half that much - heck, a tenth of that on a horse, and losing it, would ruin me or most of my friends financially. We are working class people already struggling to make ends meet.
But the facts are this. You did many, many things wrong in this transaction.
That’s all there is to it. I feel very bad for you, but that’s the bottom line.
SLC, I was only responding to exactly what you wrote, as you wrote it. If you intended something else by the words you wrote, then by all means feel free to clarify your statements. But don’t accuse me of distorting what you said. I could go through your posts and point by point demonstrate how my responses did not distort what you said, but frankly I have better things to do with my time. They are there for anyone to see.
I said it is COMMON. THAT IS ALL I SAID.
And I say this, which you don’t STILL seem to get (and which as a lawyer, I would EXPECT you to understand) -
If you am spending a shit load of money on something, you don’t trust ANYONE any further than you can throw them - i start out with the assumption that EVERYONE is full of sh**, a lying, exaggerating, full of sh** con artist with the worst horse in the universe to unload on naive, unsuspecting MOI. That’s where you START from when you are considering writing a check for over a hundred thousand dollars for ANYTHING - hell - that’s where I start from when I write a check for ten grand for a horse! or five!
How is that inconsistent with my query as to whether you meant that people commonly commit fraud and that should be assumed?
I feel terribly sorry for you, and I am devastated to hear that you lost so much money on this deal and had to go through this ordeal…and I know that it very, very easily could have been me or one of my friends - very easily. And believe me, spending half that much - heck, a tenth of that on a horse, and losing it, would ruin me or most of my friends financially. We are working class people already struggling to make ends meet.
But the facts are this. You did many, many things wrong in this transaction.
That’s all there is to it. I feel very bad for you, but that’s the bottom line.
Please have the courtesy of distinguishing between me and Bellfleur. Your post addresses me, apparently, and continues on by saying “you.” I did not buy the horse or have anything to do with the transaction, nor did I do anything wrong (nor do I think Bellfleur did anything wrong except have the misfortune of choosing a crook for an agent).
Please let me clarify something (other than the fact that Yankee Lawyer never knew me before she came to look at buying one of this mares ET daughters. A really long time after the sale and the vetting had occurred) and try to see it from my point of view.
Now I also would hire Yankee Lawyer in addition to my German lawyer next time to make sure I had a binding contract that if for any reason my purchase ended up lame or not suitable the AGENT would take it back and refund my money. Again Hindsight.
I medically could NOT return to Germany to do many of the things that SLC suggested I do. It had nothing to do with emotion. Had I been healthy I would have returned to Germany and spent more time with this mare before purchasing her. I would have been there for the vetting in person. Once again the distances involved created problems since I had a medical condition. It’s not like going to CA and I could just transfer my medical files out there for a month.
I rode this mare ONCE. She was fabulous. I selected a well know team vet from Germany. I should have been able to completely trust both my agent and the vet. I had glowing references for both of them.
My point for the entire post and the reason I posted this way to warn people about shopping overseas. They should not be thinking it is a great, easy thing with only wonderful horses. It is NOT, in a lot of cases. There are many more hurdles and hidden traps than you have in this country.
I should have been able to trust these two people, they were hired by me to watch out for my interest in my absence. When they defrauded me the German legal system should have been a recourse. It is not a viable recourse for most American’s! Period!!
I can tell you right now that if I had sent my current trainer (with my money in hand) to find me a GP mare, as my agent he would have come back to me with a fabulous, sound horse that I could ride and enjoy. I would never have met him if I had not purchased this mare though.
That is what I paid Gerhard Thele to do. He did not do it. I found out the hard way that both he and Dr. Peter Cronau were con men and crooks.
Remember that both of these people came very highly recommended by what I thought was a close, horse knowledgeable, and highly educated friend! I had known her and been friends with her for over 7 years at that point!
Yes, this agent and vet did clearly defraud me with intent to do so! I am still unsure of the owners status on all of this. I may never find out if she knew what was being done or not.
I spent way more than 100K on this mare and I am NOT sorry I own her. She really needed and deserved a great home where she was very much loved and cared for. Her job in Germany had her body completely broken down.
I am somedays terribly sad that I cannot go out and ride my GP mare. I look at her and cry many days because I wanted so badly to ride and compete her. I spent a ton of non-replaceable money that I probably should not have spent (I am NOT independently wealthy!) I have borrowed money and not had other things because of her purchase.
I will also share something else that you SLC will probably ridicule. I do not want to go through my life never trusting anyone. Have I learned the hard way to be way more careful? YES. Will I trust unconditionally again? NO NEVER.
I have also found that most of the times that when people have attempted to screw me over, I get on with it and I end up having something really good come out of it. We still do not know what will come of all of this since the mare and I are still together and she has already given me 4 lovely foals (via ET). You never know maybe one of those now yearlings will be an International GP star and I will get all of my money back and then some.
My point was to serve as a warning for all of the other Americans out there that go overseas to horse shop. I am not suggesting not to go and have a good time and find the horse of your dreams. I am saying just do not trust anyone. Same thing SLC says she never does!
And yes I would look here first and I would recommend that anyone else do the same! Even German’s are now looking here at some of what we are producing and buying it back. BTW Does everyone know that when we export a horse to Germany or the EU the buyer has to pay a 30% tax just for buying it here and then importing it!! That sounds very fair of Germany too doesn’t it! Does not make it a very fair playing field for the American breeder does it??? So if other Americans don’t support the American breeders who will??
We Americans should be searching first to keep our own best here. There are some lovely horses here in the States now. I think they breeding top warmbloods take a lot of heart, talent and money. It is not an easy thing to do.
I think American breeders do deserve to have their prospects looked at before we grab that ticket to Germany and buy something the German’s are getting rid of because it does not suit them.
Before everyone screams - Who of us would not keep the top riding horses, broodmares and foals for themselves? The German’s do! They have a government program to help keep the best there too!
By all means if you do not want to or cannot find something here go for it. Just be really careful. No matter what some of the pooh poohers here say, it really is risky. Esp if you can only buy that type of horse only once in your life like I could.
I paid a lot of money for my experience in Germany and I am happy if people learn from it. Even if it is how to not be the fool I was clearly played for!
Bellfleur - I can only express my sorrow & heartfelt sympathy that you had this experience! Your caution & warning only emphasize what has happened to a horse here in our barn. He was imported as an FEI schoolmaster and through a series of events his previous owner did attempt to return him (yes, I do mean she EXPORTED him back to his country of origin) with nothing to show for it except another plane ticket to IMPORT him again. :sigh: Long story short, after sinking a great deal of $$$$$ in training barns with Olympic riders, I was GIVEN this horse with the fancy pedigree & a ton of baggage combined with a history of being extremely unpredictable and/or dangerous. Now, he does like me and keep the lid on his tricks 99% of the time…but he certainly is not what was represented to the purchaser. Oh and he has an advanced heart murmur that was not apparent at his pre-import vetting. :eek:
Now this horse may have had a horrific flight coming to the US. He might have always had a screw loose. In the end, the seller (a VERY BN individual with a huge list of references) did not stand behind what he sold this woman. Mind you the return was attempted in less than 1 week from the time of purchase/import… :sigh:
If I were shopping for a riding horse (not likely as we breed what I get to ride ) I will/would stay on this side of the pond for lots of reasons but the main one being that you can learn an awful lot about the horse if it is within your budget/schedule/lifestyle to see the horse more than once!!
To the OP - congratulations & best of luck with your new horse!
Bellfleur,
Thanks for posting your story. I’m sure it wasn’t easy, but I for one appreciate it and understand what you’re trying to say. I don’t think you look a fool at all. I think you were taken advantage of and there is nothing for YOU to be ashamed of in that, as long as you learn from the experience (and I commend you for TRYING to help others not repeat your mistake). I agree that there are many, many incredible horses being bred here (and our breeders are only getting better with time and experience). When I go looking for my future WB filly or mare, you can bet I will be looking here in the States.
To bring back an original point of the thread, a breeder or registry co-op to coordinate buyers seeing horses at multiple farms: great idea!
To the OP: great story and I’m glad you ended up so happy and with such a wonderful horse. Everyone should be so lucky.
Caitlin
For crying out loud, if you sit in a hole, stop digging!
Now I also would hire Yankee Lawyer in addition to my German lawyer next time to make sure I had a binding contract that if for any reason my purchase ended up lame or not suitable the AGENT would take it back and refund my money. Again Hindsight.
If something is wrong with the horse and you can prove, that is was wrong before you bought it and not disclosed, the seller would have to take it back, not the agent. Also, for sure not if it is “not suitable”, as that is a very far stretch. Which agent in his/her right mind would take on the responsibility of replacing or exchanging the horse for a client? A fair agent makes a good commission, let it be 10% or even 20%, never ever 100%, so no way the agent has the liability if something goes wrong. WAKE UP – take responsibility and stop pointing on others with your fingers!
I should have been able to trust these two people, they were hired by me to watch out for my interest in my absence. When they defrauded me the German legal system should have been a recourse. It is not a viable recourse for most American’s! Period!!
We can’t know as we don’t know “their side of the story” if they did watch out for your interest or not. The German legal system treats everybody the same, no difference if you are German or American – if you have legal recourse, you definitely have it and as you seem to not have it, something is not correct in your statements, no matter how you put it.
I can tell you right now that if I had sent my current trainer (with my money in hand) to find me a GP mare, as my agent he would have come back to me with a fabulous, sound horse that I could ride and enjoy. I would never have met him if I had not purchased this mare though.
Ok, so if YOUR current TRAINER would act as an agent, would you expect HIM/HER to exchange the horse for another one if it does not “suit” you after you have it under your butt or in your barn for what ever reason? Or would you try recourse against the seller of the horse?
Oh and sure, I understand, as it would be your trainer/agent, the horse WILL arrive healthy and sound, it could not by any chance get hurt during transport or after it was purchased. You will not need an insurance I’d guess, as long as your trainer/agent hand picks your horse. Geez - wake up! They are horses, in general, they can be healthy the one day and sick or dead the next!
That is what I paid Gerhard Thele to do. He did not do it. I found out the hard way that both he and Dr. Peter Cronau were con men and crooks.
You call Dr. Peter Cronau a con man and crook? WOW – I hope he’ll read it. He is a highly recommended and respectable veterinarian, in Europe as well as in the US! You are going way to far………
You know, the whole issue really isn’t that complicated. Someone bought a horse who was vet checked pretty much perfect by assummed competant vets. The sellers made an attempt to screw buyer over and were dishonest, selling a horse that was not sound for riding. They managed to do so quite well.
Buyer is in the right, they are in the wrong…that much I think we all know. It is not legal or ethical to sell a horse like that, I think we all know this as well!. Buyer is now screwed even further because it is infinately more difficult to take legal action for the WRONGDOING of the sellers because they are located halfway across the world.
Moral of the story?: When you buy overseas, it makes it hard to take legal action if you are screwed over.
I have a question. I thought sellers in Germany had to give a warranty on a horse for a certain period, and take the horse back if they were not staying sound. Is that correct, and does it only apply to German buyers?
Bellfleur, I may have missed this but did you have a verbal discussion with the vet, in addition to the report? or emails? Or whas the communication all thru Gerhard Thele?
[QUOTE=Donella;3399090]
Someone bought a horse who was vet checked pretty much perfect by assummed competant vets.[/QUOTE]
Is it pertinent that Dr. Peter F. Cronau was the team vet for the German, Austrian and Italian olympic teams, and diagnosed the tendon issue that kept Brentina from defending at the World Cup?
Is it ok to mention this? Debbie MacDonald and Klaus Balkenhol apparently assumed he was competent at that time, and not a con man or a crook.
I do have sympathy but it’s hard to just accept that an internationally acclaimed vet is a con man. If nothing else, we can be puzzled by the apparent contradiction.
You know Donella, you are right. This issue isn’t that complicated.
Someone decided to buy a horse with problems that were disclosed in a vet check. Maybe they were focused on other things and they didn’t fully comprehend the problems as disclosed or maybe they did and didn’t care. But the problems were noted and the buyer proceeded.
16 years ago I bought a horse in the US (another state) that was completely (and unethically) misrepresented. The amount of $ was substantial to me. Because laws vary from state to state in the US, it was difficult to pursue any legal recourse. I chose not to chase it.
Does this mean I should not buy horses in the US?
No matter the circumstances, it is ultimately incumbent on the buyer to understand and represent their own interests. Caveat emptor :yes:
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