Personal Experience Buying @ Hanoverian Verband Auction in Germany

[Tiki]

Regardless, that is the standard format for any medical report; initial observations to more detailed findings. It doesn’t matter when or where the report is written, that is how they are usually done.

Well, except that the initial observations said ‘Sound of limb’. The rest sounds like a few little things were found that did not affect the sound of limb part. Lots of horses don’t pass flexion tests - depending on how the vet does them, but are still sound. Some trot off ‘lame’ for a few steps, but aren’t lame. Some pass the flexions and are dead lame. This horse was noted to be sound of limb. Repeatedly! after phone calls and emails questioning the ‘qualifications’ in the initial report. Good Lord people give it a rest ! ! ! !! !

[Bellfleur]

We are not talking about one small issue that is keeping this mare from being a performance horse. She has issues in all 4 legs and her back.

Believe me or don’t I am really tired of describing this for everyone. I do not care what anyones argument is, I was sold a bill of goods. The vetting in any country should have caught this. There are two members of our currently Olympic team that know what happened and another professional top rider that went to the qualifiers in CA. They all think I was shafted and that yes there were things I should have known BEFORE looking in Germany for a trained horse.

I am only sharing what happened and what I have learned and that other people should take that experience and put it to good use.

They have told me flat out that this does happen and that I got taken and that there had to be more than just the agent that knew about the issues with this mare.

I imported her Jan 30th 2005. I notified the agent and he claims the seller while the mare was still in quarantine that she was lame. I asked what could possibly be wrong. Did she need some sort of maintenance that I did not know about? I spent over 16K attempting to get her sound including having everything re-X-rayed and all four legs ultra sounded.

A top professional only knew one lawyer in Germany to handle this type of thing and I hired him after nothing could get resolved via phone without a lawyer. Gerhard Thele came back to me and said quote “the <seller> says you must ride this mare one and a half to two hours a day and she will be sound again” This mare was stumbling so badly that I could not safely ride her at more than a walk.

Finally she bolted so badly with me when I went to get on her for the 20 minute walks the vet had prescribed in FL that I was told to never try and get on her again!!! She stood there snapping her hind legs up so far under her belly and then stood in her stall shaking and trying to bite at her back she was in so much pain (until the vet got there). She was wearing a saddle custom fitted for her with all the appropriate pads. She was given a huge amount of pain killer as he could not even run his hand over her back in the loin area. Not under the saddle area! This from a mare that had only been ridden at the walk on a long rein for between 10 and 20 minutes a day. He came back the next day and she still have severe muscle spasms in her loin area. He informed me that it was a long term problem that had been caused by her being ridden with huge amounts of pain in her front feet and legs.

I hired and paid the lawyer in April of 2006.

How would they know that she had any soundness issues to be ridden over the top of to say that if they did not think she had a problem???

I stand by my statement. There is not a vet in the US that would have told me it was ok to buy this mare and that she had any chance of being sound at any time. Nor should anyone have expected anyone to make a reasonable deduction about the status of that vet report. Some people here are reading sound and some are reading RUN RUN RUN !

So believe whatever suits you. I know what happened was horrible AND that I was told I was buying a sound riding horse. To the point that I was told I had no reason to back out of the sale.

I for one am very tired of listening to what I should have known and done. I am sure there are a lot more experienced people that would not have gotten caught in this trap. I get that part!!! This is for the people that don’t have the experience or knowledge.

BTW After the sale Dr. Cronau would not return my calls!! I spoke to the clinic and suddenly they did not speak English. Which when trying to deal with this in any way it seemed suddenly the popular answer of choice.
Well, we don’t understand you. We understood you well enough to take your money but for the rest of it sorry no comprende!! Or whatever the h_ll the German word for that is.

I will not be posting on this any longer or even looking at this further. I thank the people who did understand how badly I was abused and offered words of comfort and encouragement. The ones who did not understand and have angry arguements about how I misunderstood the situation are simply wrong.

I know it, my friends know it and the professionals in our sport know it. Since they were on site in FL and went through most of it with me I am pretty confident it is them I should listen to.

I hope those who wanted to, took something of the learning experience away from this, as that was all that was intended. It was not so I could have a bunch of people that were not there, that had no clue what was said or done tell me I was an angry, lying person with some fictional, bizarre reason for being upset about what happened to me.

This mare and I have come through all of this and I will make more money. probably a lot more yet again. I seem at least to be good at that AND without screwing someone else over to get it I might add.

She has a good home and I still love her dearly even though I only got to ride her GP movements once. She is brilliant with a heart that would put us all to shame. She is beyond compare and maybe that is why this horrid thing happened, so she would be here in a situation where she was never “ridden though that again”

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;3400837]
In the US, they do ask what the horse has been doing & intended use. Showing at Grand Prix would have given a clue to the price tag. We are not talking about a BLM vet out west in the US.[/QUOTE]

The mare was well-ranked; quite probably the vet had heard of her. The mare’s name actually appears in a book sitting on my coffee table.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Tiki;3400853]
Well, except that the initial observations said ‘Sound of limb’. The rest sounds like a few little things were found that did not affect the sound of limb part. Lots of horses don’t pass flexion tests - depending on how the vet does them, but are still sound. Some trot off ‘lame’ for a few steps, but aren’t lame. Some pass the flexions and are dead lame. This horse was noted to be sound of limb. Repeatedly! after phone calls and emails questioning the ‘qualifications’ in the initial report. Good Lord people give it a rest ! ! ! !! ![/QUOTE]

I think part of the problem is that the posters have a fundamental disagreement with how to interpret the results of flexions. I have seen situations as you describe, so to me flexions have limited use in terms of evaluating soundness (they are also very much dependent on HOW they are done/by whom – but presumably in this case the vet knew what he was doing). If a horse has positive flexions, that to me is a signal to do more testing. But I would not rule out a horse based on flexion results alone.

[talloaks]

Now did I read correctly somewhere that Bellfleur rode this mare 2 months before deciding to purchase her and have the PPE done?? If so, why wait the 2 months?? How did the horse go on the original ride? I am supposing Bellfleur only rode the horse the one time.

[YankeeLawyer]

@Bellfleur;3400882

BTW After the sale Dr. Cronau would not return my calls!! I spoke to the clinic and suddenly they did not speak English. Which when trying to deal with this in any way it seemed suddenly the popular answer of choice.
Well, we don’t understand you. We understood you well enough to take your money but for the rest of it sorry no comprende!! Or whatever the h_ll the German word for that is.

Actually, one fact that struck me as a little off about the story is the seller’s claim she does not speak any English (or the agent’s claim that the seller speaks no English). Obviously, it’s possible, but I lived in Europe for nine years and I have to say most Europeans speak at least some English, if not beautifully fluent English. Not that they are under any obligation to speak English to us when we are in their countries, but I have rarely encountered a language problem over there (and my German is not good; I am bilingual French/English only).

[nhwr]

The vet report says what is says. To me, it says plainly the horse has some issues. It is impossible to know how serious they might have been without more info. We don’t know what the vet recommended at that point. The report only says what the vet’s findings were. Hindsight from my armchair qb position says I probably would not have abandoned the sale at this point if I was really interested in the horse. But my questions would have been specific. Like; are there any tests that can determine whether this is normal wear and tear or something that is more serious. IS there any way to know the progress of the condition? I would have discussed the situation with my US vet for clarification, more information and suggestions. So what did the US vet have to say? It is simply ridiculous to infer anything about standards between the US and Europe based on limited information about 2 isolated cases.

It sounds to me like Bellfleur was at a particularly vulnerable place in her life and she really wanted the horse. And who could blame her for that? I certainly don’t. Heck I won’t go grocery shopping when I am PMS-ing. But this tale reads like how not to purchase an expensive horse, in the US or Europe. I am not unsympathetic to Bellfleur’s plight. I am also not sure that she was screwed by the vet in Europe. It is implausible to me that a vet with a good reputation and a successful practice would engage in something as nefarious as what is being alleged here. It just doesn’t add up. Successful transactions are facilitated by rational, honest and knowledgeable parties in the transaction. Vets can help but they are only involved as consultants. Ultimately, it is up the the buyer and the seller to agree or disagree.

Thanks for sharing what has to have been a very painful experience, Bellfleur.

[talloaks]

From what I gather from Bellfleur’s experience she probably thought this was “a deal that sounds too good to be true” and had to have that mare!! Those of us who have been around long enough know there is “no deal that is too good to be true”!! Some times life’s learning experiences are full of hard knocks. I’m sure Bellfleur will make the best of her situation and learn from it all. I wish her the best.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=talloaks;3401134]
From what I gather from Bellfleur’s experience she probably thought this was “a deal that sounds too good to be true” and had to have that mare!! Those of us who have been around long enough know there is “no deal that is too good to be true”!! Some times life’s learning experiences are full of hard knocks. I’m sure Bellfleur will make the best of her situation and learn from it all. I wish her the best.[/QUOTE]

Don’t forget that Bellfleur was not aware that the mare had success in international competition before she bought her. I can say that just about anyone would have leapt at the chance to have her; she is a stunning mare and I have seen unbelievable video footage of her taken before she was sold. GORGEOUS.

[DownYonder]

There are so many “should of, would of, could of’s” with Bellfleur’s story. Yes, she probably should have used more caution. Yes, we – in our infinite wisdom – would do things differently. Yes, things could have turned out differently if only Bellfleur had used more caution.

However, what is done is done, And the bottom line is that her AGENT knew she wanted the mare as a schoolmaster and competition mare and he undoubtedly also knew the mare had some serious, chronic issues, yet he told her the mare was sound. So either he willfully misled Bellfleur – his CLIENT, for God’s sake - or he was guilty of dereliction of duty to his client. Either way, he screwed up BIG TIME. And it sounds as though he also told Bellfleur she had up to two years to return the horse or pursue legal action if the horse wasn’t as represented, when in fact, she only had 6 months – some of which was frittered away by a German attorney sitting on the case and doing nothing to help Bellfleur.

I am so sorry Bellfleur went through this, but I am very glad she was willing to post her story here. I think everyone who has read this thread will now approach buying in Europe with an extra measure of caution. As Bellfleur’s story points out, it is very, very difficult to pursue a legal case in Germany when you have to rely on German vets, German attorneys, German translators, etc., etc. (Same would go for the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, France, etc., etc.)

Again, this is not to say that no one should ever shop in Europe. Just go in with your eyes wide open, and if anything looks amiss, there may very well be a good reason. And again - I recommend that people go through the Verband offices. As I have said before, they know who can be trusted and who can’t be.

[Joanne]

The agent has been named in this thread and the vet who performed the PPE. What is the name of your mare, so that we can appreciate her accomplishments also?

[Tiki]

What would that have to do with any of this???

[Joanne]

It has nothing to do with the intent of the OP. (edited to correct the reversal of letters)

[slc2]

The intent of the PO? All I know of PO is Purchase Order. Sorry. Studying supply chains.

That, to be perfectly honest, is one factoid we don’t need to have. It suggests that Joanne doesn’t quite believe the statement that the mare was shown successfully.

Unfortunately, the one thing this story isn’t, is unbelievable. It is very believable. That’s the saddest part of all.

The whole thing is miserably sad, the worst of all is the description of the poor mare being in so much pain. All facts aside and all discussion of ‘could have’s’ and ‘would have’s’, which due to my profession are usually the first things i think of, that’s really the bottom line with this particular situation. And it is, quite clearly, infuriating and very sad.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=slc2;3403616]

The whole thing is miserably sad, the worst of all is the description of the poor mare being in so much pain. All facts aside and all discussion of ‘could have’s’ and ‘would have’s’, which due to my profession are usually the first things i think of, that’s really the bottom line with this particular situation. And it is, quite clearly, infuriating and very sad.[/QUOTE]

I agree, but she is in a good home now and is well-loved.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Joanne;3402082]
The agent has been named in this thread and the vet who performed the PPE. What is the name of your mare, so that we can appreciate her accomplishments also?[/QUOTE]

I can assure you that the agent and vet know exactly which mare this is.

[Joanne]

[QUOTE=slc2;3403616]
. It suggests that Joanne doesn’t quite believe the statement that the mare was shown successfully.[/QUOTE] That was not my intent at all.

[slc2]

Then what good does it do to know the horse’s name?

[talloaks]

I’d like to see a photo of the mare posted here.

[Joanne]

She sounds like a fabulous mare. Why not be proud of her and share?