Personal Experience Buying @ Hanoverian Verband Auction in Germany

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Dune;3322391]
I don’t think it’s a myth, period. The OP was sharing her experience, that’s super, how’s that a myth? I have a similar story. Your post here sums it up in a nutshell for me as far as what I have found shopping in the US. Breeders tend to be more toward the emotional. Rarely did I find a breeder here that could tell me what they honestly had. It’s not so much that I thought they were lying, it’s just that they were either too inexperienced or too infatuated by their own stock. Having someone develop that young horse was also a rarity, I mean geez, I want to have a little sit on your 4 year old and when it’s still sitting out in pasture that does me NO good…especially when you still want top dollar for it. When I went shopping in Germany, folks seemed to know what they had: This one is good for competition, this one is good for hobby horse, etc…and believe me, there were some lovely “hobby horses” there, here we call them something else entirely.:lol: Also, they were all started correctly, on the bit from the beginning and jumping around a bit and it was NO big deal, just expected. There is a good reason that these supposed “myths” are perpetuated, it’s because as a whole they are actually true. Now, having said all of that…their are some select breeders here in the US that know what they are doing. We are starting to breed some lovely horses, although I still have to smile a bit because even with these “homebreds”, guess where they (most) originate?? Imported stock.:winkgrin: [/QUOTE]

My reference to “myth” was to the proposition that you can’t find good horses here, and that it made more economic sense to buy abroad at this time. That is not just a myth, it is sheer BS.

As for the emotional aspect, as I said, you can explain to people 1000 ways to find something, and when the response is they want a bus tour to pick them up at their house or something, yes, it makes you want to bang your head against the wall.

Regarding knowing what you have, as a breeder, and being able to articulate that…I can only speak for myself, and am the first to point out the strengths AND weaknesses of anything I have for sale. I want my clients to be very happy with their horses. It is not a good deal, in my opinion, unless both parties are happy. It is one reason I am very reluctant to do in utero sales. I want the buyer to actually see the horse before buying so that they can make sure it is the one for them. I don’t need to sell anything on my farm. I never breed anything I wouldn’t be willing and able to keep forever. I do sell some because my goal is to get them into the hands of others who can enjoy them and bring them along. I have no incentive to try to convince someone to buy something that is not right for them.

And when I buy, I have two eyes. I don’t really care what someone is telling me about a horse. I can make up my own mind, and relatively fast. Canyou seriously not see the difference between a ‘hobby’ horse and a ‘competition’ horse? It happens that I deal with reputable breeders who do know what they are talking about and represent their horses fairly. But I have a good eye and really don’t need to be told.

Regarding not starting youngsters – the lack of good young horse trainers in this country IS a problem, but we are improving in that regard, and registries like the AHS are being very proactive about effectuating changes. I am blessed to have a very good one who starts mine, and there are others within a couple of hours’ of my farm as well.

Regarding imported stock being the foundation of some of the better programs you have seen – I never suggested that at one time we did not have the mare base here. To the contrary, a number of breeders have made a significant investment in mares in order to have mares that rival any of the better ones found in Germany. That is a problem, how? The point is, for those that are interested in those bloodlines, they are here.

To the extent that there is a problem finding horses here, I think that is not just the breeder’s issue, it is the buyer’s one as well. If people do not support the industry here, they may soon have no choice but to shop abroad for their good prospects. We are facing some serious economic challenges in this country, and if people still insist on buying abroad EVEN when it makes no financial sense to do so, and EVEN when in most cases, they could find a comparable horse here, there will come a time when your better, more ‘select’ breeders say scr*w it.

Regarding wanting ‘top’ dollar for an unbroken 4 year old, I do wonder what you mean by top dollar, because I see ones nicely started under saddle for essentially the same price as a top foal here, all the time.

And, nice way to dodge the actual response I wrote to your post to begin with, which directly addressed the points you previously made.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Dune;3322391]
Your post here sums it up in a nutshell for me as far as what I have found shopping in the US. Breeders tend to be more toward the emotional. Rarely did I find a breeder here that could tell me what they honestly had. It’s not so much that I thought they were lying, it’s just that they were either too inexperienced or too infatuated by their own stock. :[/QUOTE]

In addition, I think the above is a gross mischaracterization of my post. It is a FACT that breeders like myself have invested a significant amount in their breeding programs, and invest exorbitant amounts of time and energy getting these foals in the ground. It is a FACT that people still refuse to do the most basic of legwork to shop here, despite the existence of some very excellent horses, yet will go to all kinds of efforts to buy abroad and will pay MORE for those horses. And as for your allegations of barn-blindness, note that in my post I distinguished between exceptional offspring and the ‘also-rans’ :

‘getting a healthy foal on the ground can be a challenge. So when you manage to produce a dream horse, and have put all your blood, sweat, and tears into it, to hear people indicate that basically they could not possibly be bothered to do the most basic research when shopping for horses is exasperating.’

Dune, if you want to shop in Germany, go right ahead. If anyone here is interested in shopping for nice horses in the VA area and is stumped, feel free to shoot me an email and I would be happy to do what I can to put you in contact with the right people.

[Donella]

Also, you have to understand that breeders put their heart and soul into producing these horses. Many, many hours of research, planning, and coordinating occurs even before the mare is bred, and the financial investment is not insignificant. Just getting a healthy foal on the ground can be a challenge. So when you manage to produce a dream horse, and have put all your blood, sweat, and tears into it, to hear people indicate that basically they could not possibly be bothered to do the most basic research when shopping for horses is exasperating. Honestly, it makes me never want to sell any of mine – which is really sad, in my opinion, because part of my goal has always been to produce top horses and get them into the hands of people who can take them all the way, or who, at the very least, will adore that horse and view him as their own dream horse

AMEN!

[Tiki]

I also have a very good eye for a horse and spend hours deciding on a stallion. It not only has to be a good stallion, but it has to be a good match for my mare. I have had a very high percentage of Premium Foals, including the Colt Champion, Site Champion, highest scoring colt in the country, and a Reserve Champion filly. That colt placed well at Devon. The top 4 colts were all within 0.4 points of each other. Any one of them could have won on that day. I’ve also had some that would make very nice horses up to somewhere around 2nd to 4th level, depending on the rider and trainer. I am absolutely as honest as I can be about my horses - it’s my reputation as a breeder and seller on the line - and I try to help the buyer make the best match possible. People who have bought my horses say they will never give them up.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Tiki;3323032]
People who have bought my horses say they will never give them up.[/QUOTE]

And that, to me, is what it is all about.

[nhwr]

Maybe it is a language thing because my German isn’t that great. But the unabashed emotionalism of US breeders often puts me off. I breed too. I put my heart and soul into it. It is expected that as a serious breeder, breeding selections are contemplated extensively and the resulting foal will be handled professionally. I have a decent eye. If I travel somewhere in the USA to see a few horses, I don’t want to be told I am an idiot if I can’t see the quality. I usually know what I want but if I care to expand my criteria, it helps to be someplace where I can see hundreds of candidates within a day’s driving distance.

When the exchange rate is better, I appreciate that I can deal with breeders who don’t take it personally if their offerings don’t happen dovetail with my plans.

And BTW, it always peeves me that US breeders assume that the cost of importation and quarantine somehow adds value to their stock - for me, it doesn’t.

[Dune]

@nhwr;3323446

Maybe it is a language thing because my German isn’t that great. But the unabashed emotionalism of US breeders often puts me off. I breed too. I put my heart and soul into it. It is expected that as a serious breeder, breeding selections are contemplated extensively and the resulting foal will be handled professionally. I have a decent eye. If I travel somewhere in the USA to see a few horses, I don’t want to be told I am an idiot if I can’t see the quality. I usually know what I want but if I care to expand my criteria, it helps to be someplace where I can see hundreds of candidates within a day’s driving distance.

When the exchange rate is better, I appreciate that I can deal with breeders who don’t take it personally if their offerings don’t happen dovetail with my plans.

And BTW, it always peeves me that US breeders assume that the cost of importation and quarantine somehow adds value to their stock - for me, it doesn’t.

Thank you!!! This has been my experience, let’s not forget to add the cost of frozen semen too, that in and of itself makes the foal worth more…no matter what! :eek::rolleyes:

[Dune]

@YankeeLawyer;3322464

My reference to “myth” was to the proposition that you can’t find good horses here, and that it made more economic sense to buy abroad at this time. That is not just a myth, it is sheer BS.

Obviously not entirely true, or else NO ONE would be buying horses abroad now.

As for the emotional aspect, as I said, you can explain to people 1000 ways to find something, and when the response is they want a bus tour to pick them up at their house or something, yes, it makes you want to bang your head against the wall.

Not sure where the tour bus came in. No one I know, myself included, has ever been on a tour bus in Europe. Now maybe if you could schedule a cross-country tour bus to show us all these wonderful horses you’re talking about, then maybe I’ll hop on…of course I want you to foot the gas bill too. :lol:

Regarding knowing what you have, as a breeder, and being able to articulate that…I can only speak for myself, and am the first to point out the strengths AND weaknesses of anything I have for sale. I want my clients to be very happy with their horses. It is not a good deal, in my opinion, unless both parties are happy. It is one reason I am very reluctant to do in utero sales. I want the buyer to actually see the horse before buying so that they can make sure it is the one for them. I don’t need to sell anything on my farm. I never breed anything I wouldn’t be willing and able to keep forever. I do sell some because my goal is to get them into the hands of others who can enjoy them and bring them along. I have no incentive to try to convince someone to buy something that is not right for them.

Again, that sounds too familiar, like the emotional aspect that gets in the way here. You really want to hang onto everything you breed? You must not breed very many. You really want people to buy your horses based on what they look like as a foal, rather than picking bloodlines, nicks, and performance records? You are right that it is wise to make good matches, and not force sales, that is a good start…

And when I buy, I have two eyes. I don’t really care what someone is telling me about a horse. I can make up my own mind, and relatively fast. Canyou seriously not see the difference between a ‘hobby’ horse and a ‘competition’ horse? It happens that I deal with reputable breeders who do know what they are talking about and represent their horses fairly. But I have a good eye and really don’t need to be told.

Not sure why you’re questioning my eye, and yes I have two as well. I don’t have a problem telling the difference but I think it’s nice when breeders tell me ahead of time what I can expect so that I don’t have to waste my time. :yes:

Regarding not starting youngsters – the lack of good young horse trainers in this country IS a problem, but we are improving in that regard, and registries like the AHS are being very proactive about effectuating changes. I am blessed to have a very good one who starts mine, and there are others within a couple of hours’ of my farm as well.

Once again, good for you, but it’s not the case around the country. And BTW, if things are so hunky dory around your neck of the woods, why are you so engrossed in this thread?? We’re obviously not talking about you and you don’t have any horses for sale because they’ve all sold to great homes, right?

Regarding imported stock being the foundation of some of the better programs you have seen – I never suggested that at one time we did not have the mare base here. To the contrary, a number of breeders have made a significant investment in mares in order to have mares that rival any of the better ones found in Germany. That is a problem, how? The point is, for those that are interested in those bloodlines, they are here.

Yes, they are here and they are still coming, that’s my point. Via mares, young stock, stallions and frozen semen. We are not self-sufficient here. Just how many sporthorse/WB types go back over to Europe? It makes the “news” when/if it happens, that’s how often!

To the extent that there is a problem finding horses here, I think that is not just the breeder’s issue, it is the buyer’s one as well. If people do not support the industry here, they may soon have no choice but to shop abroad for their good prospects. We are facing some serious economic challenges in this country, and if people still insist on buying abroad EVEN when it makes no financial sense to do so, and EVEN when in most cases, they could find a comparable horse here, there will come a time when your better, more ‘select’ breeders say scr*w it.

Please, smart people are going to do what’s best for them and their pocketbook. When it finally comes to the point that it’s not economically feasible OR that we really do have the horses here, they will buy here more often…simple as that. It will also weed out the breeder that thought they were producing good stock…and it should!

Regarding wanting ‘top’ dollar for an unbroken 4 year old, I do wonder what you mean by top dollar, because I see ones nicely started under saddle for essentially the same price as a top foal here, all the time.

Well, then maybe your foals are priced too high. Look, you’re just going to have to take my word for it, just the same as I’m expected to take your word for it.

And, nice way to dodge the actual response I wrote to your post to begin with, which directly addressed the points you previously made.

Didn’t dodge anything actually. I think you’re reacting quite emotionally to this thread, proving one of my points just perfectly, thank you. I think that you were dodging a bit yourself there, actually. In my post I was clear that I was speaking about certain breeders and you are obviously convinced you are not that “type of breeder” so I’m really not sure why you feel like you have a dog in this fight, ah um, discussion.:no:

l

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=nhwr;3323446]
Maybe it is a language thing because my German isn’t that great. But the unabashed emotionalism of US breeders often puts me off. I breed too. I put my heart and soul into it. It is expected that as a serious breeder, breeding selections are contemplated extensively and the resulting foal will be handled professionally. I have a decent eye. If I travel somewhere in the USA to see a few horses, I don’t want to be told I am an idiot if I can’t see the quality. I usually know what I want but if I care to expand my criteria, it helps to be someplace where I can see hundreds of candidates within a day’s driving distance.

When the exchange rate is better, I appreciate that I can deal with breeders who don’t take it personally if their offerings don’t happen dovetail with my plans.

And BTW, it always peeves me that US breeders assume that the cost of importation and quarantine somehow adds value to their stock - for me, it doesn’t.[/QUOTE]

I would never refer to or think of a client as an idiot; to the extent your post is directed at me you are way off base.

My post, to which Dune apparently takes exception, was directly in response to numerous suggestions that the OP’s article be published in a widely-circulated US magazine. My point, at bottom, was that it would be nice if some of the US magazines actually published something about the horses being produced here.

I am a white collar criminal defense attorney. I really am rarely accused of tending towards the emotional or hysterical, because quite simply, I am not, nor could I be given that I specialize in crisis management. I am rightly described as passionate about most things I pursue, and that includes law and my farm business. If that puts you off, then go somewhere else to shop. I accept that one can’t be popular with everyone, but in my experience I do get along with most people well.

Your comment regarding US breeders thinking the costs of importation, etc. increases the value of their stock puzzles me. I am not sure what you mean by that. My point was that a horse that costs 40K Euros, including importation, is not a 40K Euro horse, because the cost of importation has nothing whatsoever to do with the value of the horse. And while I will pay a premium for quality, I will not pay what amounts to a stupid tax as a result of a weak currency and high transport costs.

[YankeeLawyer]

Not sure where the tour bus came in. No one I know, myself included, has ever been on a tour bus in Europe. Now maybe if you could schedule a cross-country tour bus to show us all these wonderful horses you’re talking about, then maybe I’ll hop on…of course I want you to foot the gas bill too.

Someone mentioned that US breeders should organize a tour group – I believe to DAD, to do a shopping trip.

Anyway, I am going back to the Sporthorse Breeders Forum now. Apologies if I offended anyone by trying to bring to their attention options that are available here.

[nhwr]

Calm down, counselor. This is discussion, not cross examination. No one accused you of hysteria. I am not a particularly sensitive individual. Still I don’t try to go out of my way to offend people. Yet often when I look at horses in the US, breeders are upset if I don’t buy their horses. I live in California. If I wanted to buy a horse from a breeder, my opportunities are limited unless I buy a plane ticket. If I am going to buy just one plane ticket, I want to go where I can see the most horses in the shortest amount of time. In my experience, that is a red eye flight to Germany. I can go there to see a couple of hundred horses in a few days. Since my time is money, that is meaningful.

Can I tell you the number of times in the US I have been shown a horse that “isn’t really for sale”? What is that about? The European breeders I know only have a few horses that aren’t for sale, their retired foundation broodmares.

My comment about importation flows from often being told by US breeders that if I were to import a horse “of this quality”, it would be much more expensive. It just ain’t so. I have friends and family in Europe who will put a horse up there indefinitely. In fact, the last horse I bought in Germany, I sold to my dutch friends who were boarding her before I could get her on a flight to the US. Discussing import costs relative to sales price is an automatic turn-off to me.

The exchange rate makes doing business in the EU tough right now. Just another reason I am looking forward to January 20, 2009 :lol:

[YankeeLawyer]

@nhwr;3323568

Can I tell you the number of times in the US I have been shown a horse that “isn’t really for sale”? What is that about? The European breeders I know only have a few horses that aren’t for sale, their retired foundation broodmares.

That is bizarre re the US breeders. Anything I show to a prospective buyer is for sale. There are 4 horses on my farm that are not for sale at any price: 3 mares and one gelding. The offspring of these mares are always for sale, at some price. I have found one thing, though – it is easier to sell ones that are ‘not for sale’ – so maybe those breeders were playing games with you. When you say it’s not for sale, some people seem to feel compelled to have that horse. I have been approached recently by someone interested in one of my mares, and though I thanked her profusely for the nice compliments on her and her interest in her, she seems to not take no for an answer and called my friends and made them call me to try to talk me into it. I swear half of this person’s strong interest in my horse is based on the fact I have said she is unavailable. It is a really nice mare; I love her to bits, but truly, for what she is offering, I am sure she has plenty of nice options, and she doesn’t have to have the one that babysits me!! Nevermind that the mare is in foal, and the woman wants her as a competition horse. She said she’ll take her and the baby!!

[MelantheLLC]

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3322464]
My reference to “myth” was to the proposition that you can’t find good horses here, and that it made more economic sense to buy abroad at this time. That is not just a myth, it is sheer BS.[/QUOTE]

Yankee, I highly respect your posts and usually find them informative and reasoned. But I just have to say that as a buyer in the market for the past 6 months, the above quote is not accurate.

Maybe if you are only focusing on young horses, it has some validity, but concerning well put-together, good moving horses of 7-12 years with solid dressage training, it is not BS at all. Even now, with the exchange rate and shipping.

That is my current experience. It has nothing to do with cache or laziness or anything but the fact that I can find a selection of horses with the attributes I’m looking for in Europe at prices that are low enough to make them a better buy than equivalent horses on the market here.

I’ve come across one in the US in my price range that I really liked, and the seller pulled it from sale on the day of the pre-purchase.

I’m old enough that I don’t want to spend a year looking for a horse. I can find what I want faster in Europe, with a wider selection and for a price that is very competitive. It’s unfortunate, because I don’t particularly want to and I didn’t start looking with that in mind. But that’s the reality I’ve discovered.

[YankeeLawyer]

My focus is primarily youngsters; that is true.

[page3girl]

Trip Pricing and Finding Horses in USA?

I don’t know how to pose this question with absolute tact, but I’d be curious to know approximately what such an endeavor actually ended up costing (at least given the current exchange rate at the time).

I have been keeping an eye out on the web for the last 18 months starting the process of looking for a young horse, and I have to say, I haven’t found a huge amount that looks really exciting – at least on the sites that I’m using. Many of the horses don’t do much for me, and frequently those who do seem, well, overpriced compared to similar horses listed on sites by folks who exclusively import. The balance has changed of late with the appalling dollar, but I can visit sites of imports and feel that easily 50% of the horses published are interesting while horse after horse that I see for sale “locally” doesn’t appeal.

So, in addition to the cost question, I would like to know where does one go in this country (with web sites as a starting point) to see lots of great horses? In addition to some individual business sites, I’ve been following warmbloods-for-sale.com and the horse market on horsesdaily.com (with most of the individual sites I’ve discovered linked from sales ads in these places), but would love to know, are there other great resources that I’m missing? Because as a buyer who isn’t “plugged in” to the market, it’s easy to conclude that there’s a seemingly endless supply of nice, reasonably prices horses coming out of Europe – each nicer than the one before it – while finding comparable horses in this country is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

[YankeeLawyer]

Another website resource is ewarmbloods.net - on the right, click on ‘Forums,’ and you will see among the forums listed a horses for sale one. There are also links to some individual breeders, and often they have pics of prospects. If you give me an idea of what you are looking for and maybe some examples of what you do like and what peaks your interest, I may be able to point you in the direction of some people within driving distance of Middleburg. I know of one barn, in Bluemont, for example that has a very, very good selection of well-bred horses and they do almost no advertising. I have ridden several of their horses and they are among the most nicely started I have ever sat on. The place could rival Hilltop for how beautiful the facility is, as well. That is just one example. I have others, too. Send me a pm if you like. And to be clear, I have no financial stake in this; I am a lawyer, not a broker ; ). But I’d be happy to help if I can.

ps another good resource in your area is the Mid-Atlantic Hanoverian Breeders Directory, available on the MAHB website.

pps Your post also highlights the importance of keeping websites up-to-date and actually providing good quality videos and photographs - and I would agree that that is an area that can really use some improvement generally, here. Mine sell by word of mouth so I don’t even have a website yet (bad girl, I know) – but given that most people do use the internet as a starting point, we are shooting ourselves in the feet if we don’t showcase what is available, to the extent it is available, properly. When I am shopping, I definitely do a first cut in part based on videos, etc. So if I don’t have one of yours, unless I happen to randomly know of a particular horse through friends or the like, I may very well miss it.

[page3girl]

A Buyer’s Perspective

Thanks, YankeeLawyer, for your offer of help. I will definitely follow up with you separately.

For those of you who sell horses, here’s one buyer’s perspective. Take it for what it is worth Ironically, I’ve decided that my approach to buying horses and houses isn’t all that dissimilar!

As an “about-to-be-buyer” (meaning I haven’t been ready to write a check until I I sell a horse I’ve been bringing along) I’ve been trying to educate myself on the current market while making a few moves toward a couple horses that looked like such finds, I had to act immediately! (I missed out each time since many others wanted to snap up these gems also).

The web is, by far, the most convenient way to shop. When I look at an ad for a horse, I expect to see pictures, a full description of its current abilities and – most importantly – appropriate videos. I don’t care how lovely a horse sounds in text, if the ad doesn’t have pictures and video, I’m reluctant to follow up. In this day and age, I start to wonder: what’s wrong with the horse? It’s so easy for anyone to make decent videos and post them to youtube, why would any reputable seller neglect to do so with a nice prospect? And for those who send videos on request, I would ask why you do this (unless we’re talking about such an expensive beast that you’re pre-screening buyers)? I don’t want to have to ask for a video and establish some kind of relationship – particularly if I don’t like the horse – and I definitely do not want to have to pay to ship a DVD or video back to you!

Videos should ideally include some conformation shots, and appropriately showcase whatever level the horse is supposed to be going at. If a horse is supposed to be going 3rd level, let me see clear evidence of that in the video (I don’t know how many videos I see that show snippets of WTC, and that’s it). Competition videos that include a complete test are really nice, particularly if you’re willing to share the test details. Ideally, I’d like to see a whole ride from the warm-up walk on. If a video looks heavily edited, to leave out transitions for example, I again assume there is a problem. On my wishlist is also seeing the horse on the longe or at liberty in an indoor.

I should mention that I have an excellent trainer who would happily facilitate my search if I was ready to buy tomorrow, but I think it’s better for everyone if I have a clear picture of what I want and what it’s likely to cost before starting to make contact with sellers and scheduling trips to see horses. I have a demanding job, so time is short. I don’t want to waste my time or yours. Again, I have used the same approach with homebuying. I do all my research online, and when I’m ready to pounce, I get an agent involved. If homes don’t have multiple photos and tours online, I start to wonder what the seller is hiding!

So, bottom line, the more you shown online about your horses, the more likely you are to grab my head, my heart – and then my money!!

[YankeeLawyer]

Page 3 – that is very helpful feedback.

[Donella]

I agree, and that makes sense. A good reminder to get some videos up:D

[speedhrse3]

imported horses in general

You have to remember that the Germans have many hundreds of years of breeding expertise. They also breed 1000’s of mares each year. Breeders here might breed 5 mares, maybe more ,but in general there arent 20 or 30 babies at each farm you may visit. Over there you can go and find any bloodline you might want. You can visit auctions and find hundreds to see. Breeders here are in their infancy, comparitively. One of my friends imports hanoverians and finds many nice ones for our market. My trainer goes 4 or 5 times a year for Equitation horses and Hunters. Hers mostly cost over 65k-80k landed.They all sell quickly, for 125-150k, as she brings nice ones back. The days of finding bargains arent over but the germans and french have figured out that we will pay for nice horses.