Personal Experience Buying @ Hanoverian Verband Auction in Germany

[DennisM]

NHWR wrote: “In any given week, where in the US can I go to see at least 30 warmblood mares between the ages of 4 and 7 with training appropriate to their age over 16.1 hds?”

This sort of question really frosts me. It takes very little effort to find 30 such mares. It took me exactly 15 minutes on the internet to come up with 30 such prospects in the Mid-Atlantic Region (the largest Hanoverian breeding area outside Germany), all within 3 hours of BWI Airport outside DC/Balt. For example, there are 8 listed on the Mid-Atlantic Hanoverian Breeders website, 3 on the High Point Hanoverians website, 2 on the Rolling Stone website, 5 on the Some Day Soon website, 1 on the Bae Prid website, 2 on the Goodness Ridge website, 1 on the Crosiadore website, 2 on the Kent Island Sporthorses website, 2 on the Hilltop website, 2 on the Autum Hill website, 1 on the Windswept website and 1 on the AHS website sales page.
I stopped looking after I got beyond 30. But I am CERTAIN that (as Mo Swanson from Rolling Stone farm and others already have said) many of the other breeders listed on the Mid-Atlantic Hanoverian Breeders website – http://www.mahanoverians.com/index.html have or know of mares that might be suitable. And, I only looked at Hanoverian links. There are LOTS of Oldenburg, Dutch, Holsteiner, and other warmblood breeders in this region.
I strongly suspect that California, NewEngland, the Southeast and perhaps other regions of the US would offer similarly good horse shopping opportunities.
Undertake the “bother” to spend a few moments checking out the wonderful mares that are available here in the US, many of which can be easily found just by using the internet!

[tri]

Well, see there you go. Yankee Lawyer said all one had to do is go to Hilltop and if you couldn’t find it, it basically doesn’t exist. But, I went to Hilltop and guess what? Not one horse going over 1st level is listed on their sales page, and only two going at 1st level at that. So, what in the world are you talking about YankeeLawyer?? And, another thing, not one price is listed. So the buyer has to call and ask about each and every one making it take even longer & harder to do the leg-work.

It sounds an awful lot of what the buyers are saying is that the way the americans have set up the system with all the fragmentation, lack of organization, etc makes it hard for them to acquire a U.S. product. Sounds a lot like what I’ve been saying over at the sporthorse forum for quite some time now.

U.S. breeders aren’t making it easy for themselves and then whine about how the marketplace doesn’t appreciate how screwed up they’ve made it.

[not_again]

From my own observations in several foreign countries, it is a informal national passtime to “stick it to the stupid Americans.” It is fine if a famous dealer fleeces a fellow countryman if a buyer from the USA gets really soaked in a transaction involving the same horse.
:eek:

[ahf]

You have to make the effort to actually click on the horses page Tri, but every single one of the Hilltop offerings has a price. Every single one.

It’s not on the over page, where a brief description of each horses exists, but it’s on their full page.

[swgarasu]

[QUOTE=tri;3334595]
Well, see there you go. Yankee Lawyer said all one had to do is go to Hilltop and if you couldn’t find it, it basically doesn’t exist. But, I went to Hilltop and guess what? Not one horse going over 1st level is listed on their sales page, and only two going at 1st level at that. So, what in the world are you talking about YankeeLawyer?? And, another thing, not one price is listed. So the buyer has to call and ask about each and every one making it take even longer & harder to do the leg-work.

It sounds an awful lot of what the buyers are saying is that the way the americans have set up the system with all the fragmentation, lack of organization, etc makes it hard for them to acquire a U.S. product. Sounds a lot like what I’ve been saying over at the sporthorse forum for quite some time now.

U.S. breeders aren’t making it easy for themselves and then whine about how the marketplace doesn’t appreciate how screwed up they’ve made it.[/QUOTE]

While I agree with your post in general- Hilltop does have some prices, you have to click on the horse to get a new page with the price.
I was surprised, I thought any horse they or their affiliates sell would have been in the upper 5 figures.

[ahf]

I was surprised, I thought any horse they or their affiliates sell would have been in the upper 5 figures.

Yes. I think you’ll find a very professional, businesslike crew there now. With 20/20 vision.

[tri]

Ah, I see the prices and the expanded descriptions.

So, we have, one horse showing 1st level, schooling 2nd for $50,000.

We have one horse schooling Training Level for $45,000

One ready to show at both Training & 1st level for $33,000

We have one small horse - 15.1 hands - that is doing some more advanced work.

And, that it. This is the great example of the farms that have all the riding horses here in the U.S. and the reason not to shop in Europe where you can ride a boatload of horses going 3rd, 4th, etc?? I like Hilltop and I am sure their horses are wonderful, their staff great, etc, but as an example of how to shop in the U.S., it isn’t looking all that great.

Please, you guys, you HAVE to see that.

[YankeeLawyer]

@tri;3334595

Well, see there you go. Yankee Lawyer said all one had to do is go to Hilltop and if you couldn’t find it, it basically doesn’t exist. But, I went to Hilltop and guess what? Not one horse going over 1st level is listed on their sales page, and only two going at 1st level at that. So, what in the world are you talking about YankeeLawyer?? And, another thing, not one price is listed. So the buyer has to call and ask about each and every one making it take even longer & harder to do the leg-work.

Good God, Tri, if you can’t navigate a website I seriously can’t help you. For one thing, people posting here are all over the map in terms of what they are looking for. Some might want mares, some want geldings, some want well-started, some want younger/unstarted, some might want top broodmares for all I know. My specific reference to Hilltop was in response to this statement:

This is unless you go somewhere like a Hilltop Farm or the equivalent and then you are going to pay just like anywhere else. I still believe that you can get the same horse for the same $$ or less in Europe (although less often now than in the past, that will work in US breeders’ favor) and you will usually get one that is better started or further along.

Hilltop happens to be just ONE farm, located near a number of OTHER nice farms, that has a number of horses of varying ages and training levels available. I never in a million years suggested that
“all one had to do is go to Hilltop and if you couldn’t find it, it basically doesn’t exist.” You are just making that up.

Also, you are incorrect that they have nothing available on their website that is trained to First Level or above. You are also incorrect that they do not list prices. I did not look at every single horse listed, but I did look at a number of them and every single one I saw lists the price and has a fairly comprehensive description of the horse and a link to a video clip. You might notice that each horse’s name on their sales list is hyperlinked. Click on the horse’s name and you will see the horse’s individual page.

Please do not take one statement I make out of context and twist it. I really cannot stand that. I also fail to see how you, supposedly a proponent of supporting US breeders and a perpetual advocate of creating better networks here, have any interest in attacking me for my efforts to make people aware of options that are available to them. Honestly, I really don’t care where people shop. I think it is unfortunate that some people may be overlooking some good horses – possibly right near them – and to the extent I can help someone identify one that is a good match, I am happy to do so. I do so because I am nice, and it makes me happy when I can help someone. I am not an agent and don’t get paid for my efforts in that regard, so I apologize if my suggestions did not suit your particular needs or interests – none of which you even bothered to articulate, of course, except to chastise me for not posting a link to a farm with a list you liked. I also have recommended a number of other farms on this thread and others. Dennis M has made recommendations. Mo Swanson has made recommendations. Bellfleur has made some, among others. These are incredibly knowledgeable people, offering to help for no charge for those who are looking for horses. Why be combattive? I don’t get it.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=tri;3334856]
Ah, I see the prices and the expanded descriptions.

So, we have, one horse showing 1st level, schooling 2nd for $50,000.

We have one horse schooling Training Level for $45,000

One ready to show at both Training & 1st level for $33,000

We have one small horse - 15.1 hands - that is doing some more advanced work.

And, that it. This is the great example of the farms that have all the riding horses here in the U.S. and the reason not to shop in Europe where you can ride a boatload of horses going 3rd, 4th, etc?? I like Hilltop and I am sure their horses are wonderful, their staff great, etc, but as an example of how to shop in the U.S., it isn’t looking all that great.

Please, you guys, you HAVE to see that. [/QUOTE]

I would like to point out one more thing. Unless you are shopping at the auction in Europe, or at a dealer’s sales barn (which I would not do), typically, any given well-regarded breeder there might only have a few horses that are candidates for any one buyer. A good friend of mine is a very highly regarded breeder there - -has bred Olympic horses, including one that competed in Athens and is competing in Hong Kong – and he has approximately 9 foals a year. By the time his horses are 3, he may have only 2 or so available, if that. So, if you go shopping in Germany, it is not as though there is just one farm with 30 Elite mares competing the equivalent of First or Above standing around for you to try. You still would have to travel around and see horses, and someone – you or an agent – is going to have to do a fair amount of legwork to put a list of viable candidates together for the client.

And as others pointed out, regardless of how many horses are available at the Auctions, the only pertinent issue is how many would potentially suit the client – generally, a MUCH smaller number, and probably well under 10, not even taking into account budget. And, it is typically not the US buyers who would be lining up for the ones that have Class II or worse findings on their radiographs (which, to the Auctions’ credit, is disclosed), and those are generally the ones that are going for the lower prices.

[Kareen]

Great article! It was great fun to read from the other side of things especially as I have a special appreciation for the ‘tourist-shopper’ perspective ever since I’ve started to shop for Welsh in Wales LOL. Up until last year I only knew the selling perspective on the German end. Now I understand my clients much better after I’ve literally been in their shoes for a while. Obviously Wales isn’t Germany and the US is a different world altogether but the experience must be very similar.
Thank you for posting it
Re. publishing it I don’t think US-breeders should try to hide away from competition anywhere. Buyers who want to travel to Europe or shop European will continue to do so whether there are articles written about it or not.
For that very reason nobody here panics about the weak USD although I personally wish it will go back up after the elections mainly because many of our boarding clients are from N.A. and they are paying so much these days I have even considerd claiming some sort of amnesty and reduce board rates so they match the exchange rate from two years ago. But then we here are struck by it as well as all cost have gone up the ceiling especially for gas which just is a big chunk if you are in agriculture and horse-breeding and showing.

What I would suggest would be to write an article on how to shop for horses in the US and try to get it up in the same issue for comparison. Much like everything else shopping in Europe vs. at home has their up and down side and instead of trying to prevent the up sides of shopping in Europe from becoming more widely known why don’t you try to emphasize the up sides of buying domestic instead and make those known as well?
I’d start out with portrays of domestically bred horses and then go on about the marketing efforts already in place. Why not include Jörg Wegener with an interview on his experiences? Can only be helpful and he is a talkative, friendly guy. I too have doubts whether a true auction model will ever fly in North America. I feel there’s too much of a stigma with them that only undesired ones go to a sale.
I do think a training centre is the way to go maybe something close to one of the major airports so buyers can easily come and get to it without taking too much time off at work (remember we have way more time off here in Europe so an extended weekend is something more easily achieved than in N.A.).

[swgarasu]

YankeeLawyer - I think people do appreciate you offering/helping to find horses. If we all knew lots of people like you shopping would be much easier, but most people don’t have resources like you. Shopping may seem simple to you because you already know where to look.
People are complaining about shopping here mainly because they don’t know where to look. At a big auction with all the horses gathered there, they don’t have to have contacts or do a lot of research in order to simply find a lot of prospects. There are a lot of people saying that they don’t want to have to do so much research, and I agree with that. I think finding a horse has gotten much easier with the internet, but it could be better still. Breeders say they put so much into breeding horses- I believe that, but I believe a bit more needs to go into SELLING. It doesn’t have to be costly, but it probably requires cooperation, communication, and organization.

[tri]

See, again, there you go. Yankee Lawyer, your marketplace is talking to you and, how do you react? With sarcasm and very much the “holier than thou” attitude. It isn’t serving you well.

Your comment of “if you can’t navigate a website” doesn’t fly especially since many buyers apparently can’t even find these friggin websites much less sift through upteen million euro offshoot wb registries in various states of disorganization. Aren’t the american BWP breeders still waiting for papers from foals inspected LAST YEAR as well as any older riding horses performance designations - too bad for any that are sold in the U.S. as the new buyers have no idea when they would get those papers for that U.S. bred horse - much less try and verify them, etc. That doesn’t happen in europe.

What I’m saying is FIX IT. Realize that there is a problem and lets get the U.S. sporthorse industry on a track where we can be competitive, organized, well-funded with cooperation & communication and the funds to do it.

Otherwise, reap what you sow.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Kareen;3335063]
Much like everything else shopping in Europe vs. at home has their up and down side and instead of trying to prevent the up sides of shopping in Europe from becoming more widely known why don’t you try to emphasize the up sides of buying domestic instead and make those known as well?
.[/QUOTE]

Kareen, I love your posts generally, so please don’t take this the wrong way, but I really don’t think that anyone here was attempting to “hide the ball” so to speak, or hide from the competition. I did say it would be nice if US publications actually published something to promote US breeding (in response to suggestions that the OP’s artticle be published in our widely circulated magazines), but most of the posts simply point out that there are also options available here for at least some of the buyers, and attempted to correct some misinformation/misperceptions about the US market. I guess I was trying to emphasize the opportunities available here and the upsides of buying domestic.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=tri;3335286]
See, again, there you go. Yankee Lawyer, your marketplace is talking to you and, how do you react? With sarcasm and very much the “holier than thou” attitude. It isn’t serving you well…[/QUOTE]

Tri,

You personally attacked me, misquoted me, mischaracterized the Hilltop website to suit your purpose and had your facts wrong, and you now are accusing me of being holier than thou because I took exception to that? By the way, I was not being sarcastic. I meant it when I said I cannot help you if you cannot navigate a website.

You are being extremely unfair to me and others. While you sit there and criticize, I and others are helping people to find horses and stuff. I have offered my time, and access to my contacts, for free. So don’t sit there and command me to “FIX IT.”

[tri]

Wow, YL, you are way out of line. Where did I personally attack you? You brought up Hilltop as an example of finding multiple horses similar in manner of going to europe where buyers can see multiple horses. I called you on it. Maybe you should have checked the website before you used them as an example.

But, in no way did I ever personally attack you (as you did me) but I guess I could retort back that “ya know, if you don’t know how to check a website…”

My comment on there not being prices was a side-note. The jist of what I posted was that there were NOT the multitudes of riding horses for sale as you alluded. That is not misrepresenting anything. It is a fact. Get over it.

And, don’t ever ever say that “while I sit here” talk about a personal attack and a mischaracterization - you are being the queen of that. I find horses for people all the time and, guess what? I don’t charge for it. I do it because I have those kinds of contacts and my trainer friends say they don’t have the time to weed through the mostly crappy websites that U.S. breeders tend to have, and try and figure out if the U.S. breeder has a rat’s clue to what the horse is capable of.

And, I will command you to “fix it” as well as all the other U.S. breeders that have let our sporthorse industry go down the crapper with confusion, disorganization, and what funds the breeders do have being funneled to europe - so what’s the difference, please tell me YL, what is the difference between you as a U.S. breeder sending your dollars to europe supporting foreign registries or the buyer going and just giving their dollars directly?? Seems like it is just cutting out the middle man to me.

[not_again]

Far from going into oblivion, the market for US bred and labeled horses has never been better for us. Quality is never out of fashion, I would surmise. There is plenty of room for everyone in the horse business.
Repeat customers. however, will base their return to a seller for a second, third or fourth purchase on the accurate representation of the first product and the first buying experience. That is true on both sides of the ocean.

[Mozart]

Just my observation

It is my impression that most N.American breeders like to have their young stock sold before they are started. When I look at websites I see mostly weanlings, yearlings and two year olds. The started horses seem to be more like the “left overs”. Not to say they are bad quality, just that they are what the breeders happen to have left and now the horse is three and, well, I guess we better get this fellow started.

I think there are definitely deals to be found in that category, breeders have no use for going young horses (unless they plan to keep them as breeding stock for the future).

However, to see a whole bunch of young, going horses within a few hourse drive…I think it requires quite a bit of planning and prep and knowing where to look. Which is why I really think N.America should pursue the sport horse auction route. Pre-screened, available for try out.

Make it a “go to” event. Trade fair, big name guest riders. The works.

[DownYonder]

My God, Kathy (Tri) - you certainly have your panties in a wad today, don’t you?

Why would anyone expect BREEDERS to have a slew of under saddle horses waiting around for buyers? BREEDERS, by their very definition, breed foals. Most of them try to sell those foals long before they get to riding age. It is unrealistic for anyone to expect to see a large group of young horses under saddle at any place other than one of the big breeding/training establishments, such as Hilltop, Iron Spring, etc. And - as already stated - even THOSE places don’t have tons of them.

You like to blame all problems on those nasty Euro registries, but even if every WB breeder in North America was using AWR, I would wager that they STILL wouldn’t have a bunch of under saddle horses hanging around their farms waiting for buyers. BREEDERS who can’t sell their foals eventually run out of room - therefore most of them try very hard to sell most of their foals before they get to riding age.

I agree that shopping for good riding horses in this country isn’t easy. I am not sure how your pipe dream of every WB foal being registered with AWR would make it any easier. Besides, isn’t AWR actually owned by a German?

[ahf]

This thread, and the spin-off threads have been helpful I think. It’s certainly given me some ideas on how to market, and some ideas of programs to help my fellow breeders market. That should keep me busy over the next year as some of these ideas are fleshed out.

I PM’d nhwr with a question or two as to what she’s like to see or might think helpful… and have not heard back. Hopefully, she’s out enjoying her own horses and hasn’t had time to reply, and the two posts she made weren’t made just to inflame. THat’s what I want to think, anyway. I know how incredibly busy we all get during show/growing/breeding season.

I’m not “funnelling to” or “funding” any european organization. $15 of what I pay to the AHS annually goes to Germany. The rest goes to support four salaries in KY, office space in KY, and US Hanoverian programs and advertising in US equestrian mags. As a matter of fact, it’s been 4 years since I used a stallion that wasn’t american based. The VhW is not getting rich on $15.

[ahf]

There may be some folks that plan on selling stock that is young and not under saddle. I’m not one of them. They are marketed as foals, then they are pulled until they are backed. The young stock I have for sale is not leftover, though Mozart, please know I did NOT take any offense at the remark at all. I’m just not situated in a population center, and am not a “destination”. And I have a young program, that experienced great setbacks the first four years.

This may change as my program matures, and the youngsters I have get sold and get further along in their under saddle careers. There is also what I have come to term “the honesty penalty”. It costs you about 6-8 years, until people learn that if you say the horse is purple, it’s purple.

I think there are things that I can do better. Anyone that doesn’t constantly re-evaluate their business plan, and their marketing plan is due for a fall. I can always do something better, I can always learn.

I’m glad the thread got started. Tremendous food for thought.