I think the “golden halo” that a PP mentioned really is still a big factor for the appeal of imported horses. I know my attitude about an imported German warmblood is that it was produced in an area that has been doing this successfully for hundreds of years. It was raised in a system that has been proven over hundreds of years to produce quality animals. I feel more confident that the odds are in my favor of finding a quality animal in Europe than here in the US. It’s nothing agains the breeders here, it has more to do with the geography of our country and the nature of our horse industry.
Heck, when I type “sporthorse breeder” into a search engine I can come up with anything from Iron Spring Farm to Backyard Joe and his draft mare that got knocked up by a QH/Missouri Fox Trotter stallion. It’s a lot harder to weed through the horses here and the convenience of having a whole bunch of horses at one auction that are the type you are looking for is a great appeal.
But realistically speaking, I’ll probably never be able to afford to import a horse so I’ll continue to buy domestically bred anyway (heck my horses so far have been track rejects so I’m not even supporting American sporthorse breeders anyway).
And I’d like to respectfully disagree that American breeders are “doing it for us”. You, the collective you, get some enjoyment and benefit out of breeding horses otherwise you wouldn’t do it. You’re doing it for you. I always hear how it’s darn near impossible to make a profit breeding horses, so you must enjoy it for personal reasons because if you’re not making money and you’re not appreciated by American buyers why on earth would you continue?
Sure, I do it for myself, but I can only keep so many. I LOVE working with the babies. BUT, the people who have bought my youngsters love them to death and love how well brought up and well behaved they are. I love hearing back from them about how they’re doing and how they’re progressing. Instead of a double edged sword, it’s a double sided blessing. Besides, when I was a kid it was almost impossible to find a good quality horse for dressage. Now there are many, many choices, for all kinds of riders, amateur or professional, big and small. Raising top quality foals gives me horses that are good enough for professionals and sane enough for amateurs. Cob sized to full sized.
Joanne, if you are interested in a Quaterback you had best go and look at it now. I had a filly foal this year, last month actually, who sold at 10 days leaving behind a list of unhappy people who didn’t get to buy her!! I am having the mare bred back again this week, which is something I don’t usually do–breed back with foal at side, that is. Incidentally the buyers only saw a photograph emailed to them and had to have her and the money is already in my bank.
[QUOTE=talloaks;3329161]
Joanne, if you are interested in a Quaterback you had best go and look at it now. I had a filly foal this year, last month actually, who sold at 10 days leaving behind a list of unhappy people who didn’t get to buy her!! I am having the mare bred back again this week, which is something I don’t usually do–breed back with foal at side, that is. Incidentally the buyers only saw a photograph emailed to them and had to have her and the money is already in my bank.[/QUOTE]
Talloaks - I had your QB in mind when I said some were on the way. Congratulations on your new filly. Did you post pics of her on the breeders forum?
[QUOTE=talloaks;3329161]
Joanne, if you are interested in a Quaterback you had best go and look at it now. I had a filly foal this year, last month actually, who sold at 10 days leaving behind a list of unhappy people who didn’t get to buy her!! I am having the mare bred back again this week, which is something I don’t usually do–breed back with foal at side, that is. Incidentally the buyers only saw a photograph emailed to them and had to have her and the money is already in my bank.[/QUOTE]
Talloaks, you were one of the ones I had in mind when I mentioned there were some QBs on the way in this area.
I am not surprised that one went fast; she is also out of a very nice mare that is a proven producer. The good foals tend to go quickly.
[QUOTE=nhwr;3328788]
If I wanted to buy a warmblood mare (prefer Hannoverian GOV or Trakehner would consider others if the bloodlines were right), 4 to 7 years old, over 16.1 hds with age appropriate training and I was willing to spend a couple of days in your area to look, how many horses could you show me that meet that criteria? What would the prices start at?
Not at DaD, time frame doesn’t work for me.[/QUOTE]
For dressage? Assuming yes, I would say at any one time I could probably put together a list of 5 or 6 – maybe a lot more, depending on how many the woman who starts my babies has in her barn to sell as well (she frequently has horses in to be trained and then sold, from very good breeders). I have other friends that have maybe 2 or 3 available at their farms at any given time. We are also are relatively near bigger farms, like Rolling Stone, Hilltop, and Highpoint Hanoverians, and if you are not opposed to driving a bit farther from VA after checking those two places out, Sporting Chance Farm as well.
In terms of pricing, it really is hard to say because that would depend on the relative qality of the horse, and to an extent, the seller’s circumstances. And there is a big difference b/w a 4 year old with solid basics appropriate for that age and a 7 year old – the latter, if nice, might easily warrant a really big pricetag, or have already demonstrated that it is topped out as a lower level horse. Plus, some riders want/need a really easy one, others might be fully capable of taking on horse that is more green or more of a challenge, that might have a lower price commensurate with that. Even among amateurs, there is a wide range of skill and experience levels.
Anyway, if you are considering a trip, I could make some phone calls to see what is available now.
Edited to add: note that my “5 or 6” is a very conservative estimate, because I would be just scouting out candidates as a favor; I have a busy schedule so unfortunately cannot devote all that much time to it. But literally, in under a couple of hours, I could probably identify that many. More time = more horses.
I agree with Mo and Yankee Lawyer there are a super number of exceptional and easily available horses here in US. There are trainers available for them also.
I own and breed a mare that is Sandro Hit, Diamond Hit, and Royal Hit’s oldest half sister. I believe she is the only mare from Loretta in this country. She is by the stallion Karon (not blood to scoff at either). The German Oldenburg Verband (and they were members of the same Stallion selection committee as select the stallions in Germany!) stated that her only colt to date was a stallion prospect and that he would definitely be selected for the Elite auction in Germany. In Germany this colt would have been purchased as a foal and gone to a professional stallion rearing station. Her daughters are all premiums one of which is well trained to second level.
I have a GP mare that was FN ranked 10th in the GP Special in Europe before her import into the US. She has very rare bloodlines esp when you consider all of the ‘R’, ‘S’ and ‘D’ mares and stallions out there. She has produced 4 simply amazing foals via embryo transfer. Top trainers in Germany told me (after I purchased her) that she was a phenomenal mare even though she was not well ridden and trained in at all (even though she was in Germany!). When her colt is 2 and a half I have a top trainer in Germany wants to see him if he is still available. He said when he would go to the shows and found out the Dam was there he would just go home. The mare was just that brilliant.
When her daughter was inspected she was awarded the top Hanoverian Filly at the very competitive High Point Hanoverian Inspection. it was said when one of her other daughters when presented to the Oldenburg Verband for her inspection that “this is the foal of a lifetime for any breeder in any country” Any of her foals are top prospects in any country.
If I sold they foals for what someone in the US would be willing to pay for them as ‘Born in the USA’ I would not be able to go to Europe and replace them with the same quality for anywhere near the same price.
My young stallion prospect was the highest scoring under saddle horse at Dressage at Devon last year. This meant he scored higher than many very Expensive Imported German horses. He was bred here in VA and trained in MD.
So the horses are here and the training is available.
I have a lovely facility that I have offered to others to use to showcase their sale horses. Feel free to contact me to set something up. I alway offer interested buyers the options of a drive around to see what others have for sale in the area. This is within a 3 hour drive time. I have always offered this at no charge even with the price of gas the way it is.
The bottom line is we do have the horses and the trainers. We just have a huge country when compared to Germany and they emphasis in this country is NOT what it is in Europe. Horses in Europe are a really big business. Here they are for most people a hobby. In Europe it is easy to see an average horse and because of the money and organization behind it in auction atmosphere and top brilliant riding it looks like a super star there. Whereas the American breeder does not have these options. When we have auctions here everyone thinks they are not breeders selling top quality offspring and an opportunity to get a top horse. They are viewed as a dumping ground for unwanted or reject horses. I am as guilty as the next person. Unless I am going to a Fasig-Tipton auction I expect to see bargains.
The TB industry has managed to have top auctions in this country so I do not see why the sporthorse’s couldn’t other than the money is just not in it for the auction company or for the breeders. The racing people expect to go to the 2 yr old in training sale and get the top prospects and they pay top dollar.
Another thing that this discussion has not brought to light are the lame and otherwise unusable horses that the Europeans sell to American’s through a variety of venues and the risks involved. Your access to legal recourse is severely hampered by purchasing in Europe. If you pay good money for a horse in Euro’s and you are completely defrauded do not expect to be able to do much about getting your funds back. This never seems to get talked about when people rave about of ‘my latest was imported’.
So, I don’t doubt that there are nice horses here, but can someone tell me the most efficient way to find them that doesn’t involve paying someone to do it for me, or knowing someone who knows someone who knows someone…? Where do I go, with minimal investment of time and money, to see what is available so I can get a handle on the market and chart a course of action?
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I routinely check warmbloods-for-sale.com and the horsesdaily horse listings, and neither resource shows evidence that lots of nice horses are thick on the ground here! And, most of the “well marketed” horses on these sites seem to be coming from abroad, either directly or after someone else imports them.
As an adult amateur, I really am not interested in buying a horse sight unseen (I’ve done it, it didn’t work, and I won’t try it again), and I don’t really give a rat’s rear end whether a horse is “imported.” At the end of the day, it’s still “a horse.” So, I would LOVE nothing more than to find my future partner right here in the old US of A where I can meet him and try him without trying to deal with the logistics of going abroad first, but I just don’t know how.
BTW, I do have contacts and such so I don’t really have no way forward, but wanted to make the point that we don’t make it easy for buyers in this country to shop at home. I would be willing to be good money that many buyers end up with imports not because they DON’T want an American bred, but because it almost seems “easier” (and possibly even cheaper) to import!
I don’t think anyone would disagreee with that statement, but that is different than arguing, as some have, that a horse bought in Europe will cost the same or less than an equivalent one purchased in the US, or that there are simply no horses here worth seriously considering.
Also, Bellfleur’s comment with regard to potential fraud issues should serve as a warning to anyone buying abroad. If you do, do your homework. Get radiographs done and make sure they actually belong to the horse you are considering, and have a second vet review them here in the US before buying (you can have digital radiograph images emailed for review here).
I don’t recall anyone saying that there are NO good horses here in the US to purchase, there are but they are few and far between. This is unless you go somewhere like a Hilltop Farm or the equivalent and then you are going to pay just like anywhere else. I still believe that you can get the same horse for the same $$ or less in Europe (although less often now than in the past, that will work in US breeders’ favor) and you will usually get one that is better started or further along. If this is not the case, then why are sales barns still importing horses for resale?? It’s not rocket science, folks, and just because US breeders wish it weren’t true doesn’t mean that it isn’t. Sorry. Having said that you may also get lucky here and find a great deal, especially now that the economy is taking a bit of a downturn, at least that’s what I would expect if Americans decide to be as practical, no-nonsense about selling their horses as most Europeans tend to be. Also, the comment about fraud issues…well let’s just say that your fellow countryman right here in the good 'ol US of A is willing to fleece your pockets as well. And you want to talk about getting restitution…it can be just as difficult to do so in your own state, let alone cross-country if you have to take it up in their state court. Go in with open eyes people, no matter where you decide to buy.:yes:
Actually, you might have a look at the offerings posted at present on the Hilltop website. I really would like to see how you could begin to import horses equivalent to what they have available at the same or lower price. Their website is hilltopfarminc.com Check it out. They tend to be reasonably priced, in general.
Truly, I get that no matter what I say, some people will still insist on shopping in Europe. That is fine. It is fun! The people are cool! The beer is not bad! But, most of my posts were responding to people who indicated they weren’t familiar with some of the options available, including the names of specific farms. If I suggest a small farm, someone will say the facility is not fancy enough, or that breeder doesn’t show enough, or whatever. If I suggest a big farm with world class facilities, people protest that the horses are too expensive (though as I said, that is not always the case).
All I know is that I have never had a problem here or abroad finding exactly what I want. Whatever my methods, they have worked for me. To the extent I can help someone else find a really nice horse, I am happy to do, whether it is one of mine or someone else’s.
If this is not the case, then why are sales barns still importing horses for resale?? It’s not rocket science, folks, and just because US breeders wish it weren’t true doesn’t mean that it isn’t. Sorry.
I will tell you why one high profile barn is continuing to do so. They charge the US customer 2 to 3 times what the horse cost in Germany, including import. How do I know? Because they have asked, on a number of occasions, German breeder friends of mine to take pricing off their websites so the US customer will not be able to find out how much the horse truly costs – btw, the person I am thinking of acts as agent to the US buyer on the sale, and has not, in most cases, bought these horses for resale. And this Agent tried to do that with a horse that I bought – directly from the breeder, at the real price, after the breeder refused to do business with Agent.
Having said that you may also get lucky here and find a great deal, especially now that the economy is taking a bit of a downturn, at least that’s what I would expect if Americans decide to be as practical, no-nonsense about selling their horses as most Europeans tend to be.
Europeans do not give away their good horses, period, so I am not sure why it appears that many posts suggest that US breeders should be giving horses away, or selling at a loss.
I have no doubt that the economy and other factors will impact prices to some extent. And some may choose not to sell their better offspring until the timing is such that it makes sense to do so.
Also, the comment about fraud issues…well let’s just say that your fellow countryman right here in the good 'ol US of A is willing to fleece your pockets as well. And you want to talk about getting restitution…it can be just as difficult to do so in your own state, let alone cross-country if you have to take it up in their state court. Go in with open eyes people, no matter where you decide to buy.:yes:
Absolutely, people SHOULD always be cautious, here or abroad. You are incorrect regarding the availability of remedies, though. In Europe, you would have, as a practical matter, virtually no recourse. I have witnessed some very ugly situations involving fraud in the horse import context, people being literally fleeced of hundreds of thousands of dollars, and could do nothing.
That said, I do personally find that the auctions hosted by registries like the Hanoverian Verband are trustworthy, and they do have a good auction vet. But if you are considering buying outside that context, know who you are dealing with and do your homework. My point about the radiographs was intended to be helpful. A lot of people are not aware that you can send radiographs via email and have them reviewed by your vet at home – while you are still in Germany, if you prefer. Vets here DO do PPEs differently, and may very well have a different take on the images, good or bad.
I asked a question earlier which has not been answered, so I will ask it another way.
In any given week, where in the US can I go to see at least 30 warmblood mares between the ages of 4 and 7 with training appropriate to their age over 16.1 hds?
[QUOTE=nhwr;3331431]
I asked a question earlier which has not been answered, so I will ask it another way.
In any given week, where in the US can I go to see at least 30 warmblood mares between the ages of 4 and 7 with training appropriate to their age over 16.1 hds?[/QUOTE]
I would like the same answered, only I would like to look at geldings, 15.3-16.1.
you asked: If I wanted to buy a warmblood mare (prefer Hannoverian GOV or Trakehner would consider others if the bloodlines were right), 4 to 7 years old, over 16.1 hds with age appropriate training and I was willing to spend a couple of days in your area to look, how many horses could you show me that meet that criteria? What would the prices start at?
I’m not a US breeder but count many US breeders among my friends. In this area (Southern California), I am certain I can get a 2 day trip together that will show you at least 7-10 mares of your specifications (granted you are willing to look into all warmbloods and are not only looking for one breed) and prices would start at various levels because some mares are under saddle and proven in competition and others are “only started”, but well started. So anything is possible, but your lowest end would most likely be around 25K USD.
I can also tell you with certainty that at the exact same time interval (2 days) on the ground in Germany, again among breeder friends etc, I can show you 25-30 mares - that will start at around 12.5K Euros with an open end. Add conversion and import, you will spent the same amout for the horse and have additional travel expensis. That is hands down, honest.
I have bought horses both privately and at the auctions in Germany as well as horses in the US. So, each to their own (which is what every one has said, but this discussion always comes through)
The article was fun and well written, and brought back fondly memories!
I CAN tell you, that the Germans dont give their good horses away! and why should they?
To anwser the question about finding 20-30 horses here, well, that may ofcourse be difficult! however, I have gone shopping a lot at the auctions, and by the first day, even with “lax” requirements, only 5-6 remains! either due to x-rays, ridability etc. If you do screening well in advance, you can find that here too I would venture! and out of what is left, most will be more expensive than similar quality here. I promise you unless money is no object, and then it will be no object travelling around?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nhwr
I asked a question earlier which has not been answered, so I will ask it another way.
In any given week, where in the US can I go to see at least 30 warmblood mares between the ages of 4 and 7 with training appropriate to their age over 16.1 hds?
I would like the same answered, only I would like to look at geldings, 15.3-16.1.
May I make a few suggestions? This board has contact information in the signature line or in the contact info section. Most of the breed groups have a links section on their website. You can even call or email me or some of the other posters. The Mid Atlantic Hanoverian Breeders Club is a super group of breeders that all seem to try and help each other. I can contact a long list of members to see what they have in the Mid Atlantic states. You can start at my farm and look at three (two mares and a gelding), then drive to other farms I have contacted from there. I have many friends that are trainers that I can contact. I have friends that breed Oldenburg and Dutch horses that I can contact. They are all within driving distance from my farm. In my opinion, the biggest fault I can find with most of the people I would call for you is that they are too modest and honest about what they have for sale. If you insist on going to Germany or Holland, Linda Woltz, a few others and I can probably (and may I say, reluctantly, since we are all American breeders) put you in touch with people there that we have found to be honest and knowledgeable. Those European contacts will have to do a fair amount of searching, too. As Linda said, you can narrow down the choices pretty quickly there, too. Trust me, pickings are not slim here in the good 'ol USA for a good horse honestly represented and well started. I think if you really want a top horse for competitive sport, you’ll find that breeders both here and in Europe are not likely to give their super horses away, unless they are desperate. BTW, those bargain horses never show up when you are looking and have cash in hand. The bargains come your way when you are the most broke and least in need of yet another horse to feed. In general, you get what you pay for, both here and in Europe. You can compromise on the initial training or raw talent and pay less, or you can pay medium bucks for a solid start on good quality or you can pay big bucks for both high quality training and super potential. I am talking about mostly dressage horses here- the hunter market is its own seperate price structure, and I have yet to figure it out, personally. BTW, as a seller, it helps to have a buyer honestly represent their riding skills to me. I can’t tell you how many times a buyer on the phone was looking for a top quality horse, but when they rode my prospect with the big gaits they were double bouncing at the posting trot. I will try to make a good match for the buyer. It is good for my business, afterall. But it really helps if the buyer is honestly representing themselves, too. Selling foals is different. Then I am selling a dream…
I can tell everyone here that dealing with the German legal system when you are an American is a horrible and worthless endeavor, even when you have the best known and most competent of German lawyers. I have personal firsthand experience. You had better have a bucket load of money to throw at the problem and then do not expect to get any of your investment back. UNLESS of course you can prove (while dealing with a foreign language and the attitude of well I am not going to go against another German) the seller INTENDED to sell you a horse they knew was lame. NOT this horse arrived lame and they definitely were pre-existing conditions so yes you get your money back.
I had an FEI vet in Germany and x-rays that were mailed for the pre-purchase. The vet report stated on the first line “The horse is sound in eyes, wind and limbs.” Looks like the pre-purchase vet said she was sound yes??
The problem was the horse had so many soft tissue injuries she was un-ridable (and the sellers advise when notified within 2 days of her arrival was “You must ride this mare one and a half to two hours per day and she will be sound again!” Well, how did they know that if she had not been lame ever?
The mare arrived in quarantine completely lame and has been ever since. Period. I had multiple American FEI vets say they were pre-existing conditions. All of these men were very highly respected. Even the quarantine station stated that she was lame when she arrived and that they were not new injuries. It is definitely Buyer Beware in Germany.
Yes it is possible and it does happen that many people do get lovely international quality horses from Europe. However you should be aware when shopping in Europe that your recourse is very limited and difficult at very best.
I am not saying there are not crooks here in the US as well here however we do have better recourse to legal remedy.
[QUOTE=MoSwanson;3332630]
Quote:
BTW, those bargain horses never show up when you are looking and have cash in hand. The bargains come your way when you are the most broke and least in need of yet another horse to feed. …[/QUOTE]
