Perspective

[StormyDay]

@LaurieB

I agree with everything that has previously been said, but I also want to offer a slightly different take on what happened.

Your “puppy filly” is–by virtue of her age–at the bottom of the pecking order of your field. So to attempt to give her treats while your other two horses/ponies are loose nearby, is asking for trouble. In this instance, I think it might be equally likely that your Appy meant to kick out at the almost-yearling to show her who’s boss, and you got caught in the crossfire.

That said, you mentioned that the Appy has been violent with you before so obviously that kind of behavior has happened under different circumstances as well. If I were you, I would let your husband handle his own horse. Better safe than sorry.

Edited to add: Your young filly may seem like a puppy now, but there will come a day when she will begin to challenge you too. Even a Golden Retriever needs to learn basic respect for its human companion.

This is very true. I’d be working on instilling manners in the filly ASAP. They are cute and tiny… until they are not. Sounds like this may have been what happened with this gelding. Even with goldens, we work on taking their food away from them at a young age to prevent food aggression, teach them not to jump, etc. The sweetest dogs still have teeth.

However, I’ll say I don’t think she got caught in the crossfire. Horses are much more aware of their surroundings and body than we sometimes give them credit for; every farrier will tell you that when they talk about why they have bruised toes! (My only caveat is horses with nuro issues). This gelding 100% knew he was going to hit her.

[PNWSunnyDay]

@StormyDay

I’d carry a long whip at all times around the horse and make him back off of me with it. I’d also separate him from the other horses if possible. That is so when you go into his pasture, you can keep your attention solely on him to watch for behavioral changes.

My first thought was to separate him and carry a whip to reinforce your space. He doesn’t get to come within striking distance of you. I had to do the same thing with a boarder’s horse during feeding time. The horse had been allowed to rear, strike out, bite, and kick at anyone for any reason because the young owner always made excuses for Dobbins.

[2DogsFarm]

This gelding has your Number & until you learn to control him, sending him to a trainer isn’t going to fix the problem.
If you can work with a trainer who can see what happens & teach you how to react, that could work.

Nevermind that your husband doesn’t see or believe the bad behavior with you & your daughter.
That is not the problem.

I agree with the poster who said separate this horse from the others to minimize your having to be in the same place.

Good Luck, I hope you can correct the problem.

[lenapesadie]

@JB

I will also offer up that if the gelding had manners instilled in him from the start, it wouldn’t have been an issue to have treats in the presence of loose horses.

I bring treats into the field on a fairly regular basis, some situations warrant more (ie needing to feed bute or or banamine twice a day, not just once, but also not bringing them in to eat more than once), and even when there were 4, they all know/knew it was unacceptable to even get happily-pushy to get their turn.

the problem was having “available” food in the presence of a loose horse with no ground manners.

I agree. I regularly interact with my guys loose in the pasture and dispense treats. If I’m treating the more submissive horse, the more dominant horse stays well away. He knows I’ll send him away if he tries any crowding. Established groundwork makes this a lot smoother of course, but basic “chase horse with whip” has thus far been effective for me when handling less educated horses (eta) in situations where I’m simply keeping myself safe and not training the horse per se. Then again, having enough experience to anticipate and react to problem behavior early enough to avoid a wreck is a critical key to success. Like, always having a weapon when sharing space with a horse with known aggression issues and sending / chasing off the horse with known aggression issues before he’s close enough to connect a kick. But perhaps this particular horse is one of those rare “ruined” horses and it’s not handler error….

[sascha]

@2DogsFarm

Nevermind that your husband doesn’t see or believe the bad behavior with you & your daughter.
That is not the problem.

Disagree wholeheartedly. That sort of dynamic in a relationship helps to make the bad relationship with the horse endure. If you hear often enough that your experiences don’t count and there is nothing wrong with what happens to you, you begin to believe these things at a deep level (even if you don’t believe them in your conscious, logical brain) and become inert - unable to make the changes necessary to change the relationship with the animal, let alone to fix the human dynamic.

It’s actually extremely important, sadly

[Bluey]

That horse is not suitable for that situation.
Your DH is who should be alarmed and seen to a quick resolution.
His his wife and kid, his horse, horse needs to go.
Get one that fits your place, one your family is safe around, that one is not.

You can’t train disposition on a horse, it is what it is.
A pushy horse can be taught to behave, but it will always be a pushy horse that will need pushy horse management to keep him from pushing.
Not everyone wants to be around horses that require strict management to be safe around.

First problem there is the DH not considering other’s safety first.

[JB]

@StormyDay

This gelding 100% knew he was going to hit her.

Or he didn’t care, because he just doesn’t respect her. The target may have been the filly, but without the training to learn that humans are never, EVER to be put in danger, she was just collateral damage. It IS worse if the OP was the target. But it’s also 100% unacceptable if she was just in the way.

Frightened horses who spook into humans, are not truly well-trained in personal space boundaries (with few exceptions). My 17h WB spooked my way a few times but you could tell he was doing everything in his power to not run into me, and only once did he fail because I was just too close

[beowulf]

@StormyDay

Horses are much more aware of their surroundings and body than we sometimes give them credit for; every farrier will tell you that when they talk about why they have bruised toes!

I agree. I had a lease horse that was leased to me with the caveat she could be girthy. First time tacking her up I was watching her and buckling everything up very slowly, that mare picked up her front foot and slammed it down on my toe. It was totally on purpose! I learned to girth her the way you hug someone you don’t want to touch. I ended up concluding the lease early; I didn’t think she was 100% sound (which may have been why she was girthy!) but she tried every time to flatten a toe or two when the saddle came out.

[sascha]

@Bluey

A pushy horse can be taught to behave, but it will always be a pushy horse that will need pushy horse management to keep him from pushing.

Yup! And even when you might lull yourself into believing you’ve had a full turn around, nope! Case in point, I trust my mare with just about anyone. However, beginning of COVID I was away from her for about 6 weeks and she was left in the hands of totally (ok, more or less) capable hands. When I was able to go back she had had a pretty much full reversion to her pushy ways and needed a couple of weeks of manners boot camp to get her back to being good. Even then, it was months before I trusted her with a child again. Months to fix what a few weeks wrecked. No blame being put on anyone - she is who she is and without a very, very strict box of regulations around her, she goes back to that feral, “alpha” BS, no manners piece of work she used to be.

[Angela_Freda]

Personally, I’d also want some blood work and exam done, in case there’s a medical explanation.

[B_and_B]

Lots of good responses already. But I’ll add my perspective as I have a horse that is not malicious, but is dangerous without correct handling.
First: if you are the regular daily caretaker for the horses, it does not matter what your husband thinks. You need to make sure that the horses behave around you. I don’t think the Appy is malicious. I think he completely totally does not respect people on the ground and is the dominant horse in the herd. The situation has gotten bad enough that ‘fixing’ is going to be difficult. To keep yourself safe, no treats for any horse when he is loose. If he is loose, you are carrying a lunge whip. If he charges the fence line, you have an excellent opportunity to teach him to back off safely. NO treats for anyone unless they are tied. NO scratches in the field. In your case, the Appy should get tied up or locked in his stall first before you do anything. If you can feed him tied even better. I’d also recommend removing all the feed buckets before letting him loose again.
I have a herd of three as well: one elderly, extremely submissive pony mare; one full grown Big Shire gelding who is extremely anxious, pushy about food, and a known kicker of people (if he wasn’t so good in harness…) he is a confirmed dangerous horse; one two year old Shire gelding who is a big two year old with all that means. The boys are balanced for dominance and constantly shoving on each other.
I separate the pony at feeding time, the other two get fed together. I have taught the boys with a lunge whip for the ‘reach out and touch’ that they go to their respective food dishes and they stand there and wait. Pushing at the fence line? Told ‘go to your dish’ and I move them. Rump turned towards me? I request they move (make darn sure you do that out of kicking range!) Ears back? A sharp no. A grumpy look while eating? I stand closer but not threatening. I have it to the point now where I come out to feed and the boys are pushing on each other for dominance, I tell them ‘enough’ and they stop.
I’m spreading hay? I carry the lunge whip and they are told to back off, they can follow but they cannot grab hay from me. However, I try not to put myself into a position that they are going to question my dominant position.
I’m opening a gate? They have to wait and walk through it.
They stand for me to halter them, they only move when I ask them to.
It is a daily, always, always on bit of training. It took several truly ugly lessons. I always make sure that if the question of who is in charge comes up, I can answer it with ‘I am’ and back that up. I don’t put myself in positions that the challenge is one I am going to lose.

Edit: I should add lest people think I have two horses who despise each other!, the two boys love each other, they have the makings for an awesome team. But, their constant game of who is boss cannot and must not include me.

[Bebe_Falcon1]

@Cameraine

I’m leaving and my puppy filly comes up to me and I’m rubbing her all over her head and dig in my pocket for a treat to give her. The Appaloosa gelding pushes his way in to my space. I wave my hand at him to get him to back off and the bastard whips around, and double barrel kicks me in the side. Thankfully he was close enough to me that I didn’t get too badly hurt but the ass hole could have broken my arm and my ribs.

This seems like a complete - and incredibly dangerous - over-reaction, on the part of your gelding, in response to simply being waved off. I’m not a proponent of violence towards animals when it comes to training, but I agree with others here that your gelding should have been very briefly scared for his life after pulling that stunt.

What are your options at this point, beyond carrying a dressage/lunge whip on your person whenever there’s a chance you’ll be interacting with him? You mentioned sending him off to a trainer, when is that expected to occur?

[eightpondfarm]

@beowulf

You threatened him, and he returned fire. In my eyes kicking out at a human is a total act of warfare and that horse needs to be in total fear of his life for the next fifteen seconds.

Yasss!!! Personally, i can’t help myself for going-off batcrap nuts on a horse that has intentionally come at me, (and in all my days it’s only been two or three)… For me it’s a primal instinct thing. Any animal around here…ram,bull,rooster… fresh mustang all of them…know that i’m an animal too. About that they are 100%. It’s not that i am all ‘rules’, i am a very empathetic R+ trainer.

I suppose if a person is not naturally reactive, it would be hard to teach. But i’d think at some point self-preservation might kick-in? Or at least mama-bear if your child was around…?

[B_and_B]

@Bebe_Falcon1 I agree with you. It was also exactly this sort of incident that really was the final ‘nail in the coffin’ with me and my big guy. About a week after I got the young gelding I went out in the field to put a halter on him. Big guy came over and wanted to be part of the action. I told him to back off…big guy (who weighs in at over 2000lbs…) nailed me in the thigh, mercifully just below my hip. It still hurts well over a year later and is still discolored. That was the third time he had kicked me though the first time he had truly connected, and numerous times for previous people. (there is a back story on why I put up with him, not relevant)
It has been zero tolerance since then. And the remarkable thing? The horses seem calmer, more willing to work, and frankly happier. However, I’m under no illusions: like others have mentioned, this sort of horse requires a life long commitment to being respected first and a friend second. The appy sounds like this sort of horse.

[Posting_Trot]

I’d agree with a lot of what other posters have said: the Appy has no (or not enough) respect for you and that needs to change.

Personally, I don’t think that sending the horse to a trainer will do much for this situation unless you’re willing to go to the trainer often enough and get trained yourself on how to deal with the horse to make his newly learned respect truly stick.

The horse, and every other horse in your pasture too, has to learn that when you are around, the horse has to be aware of where you are at all times and has to do his utmost to avoid harming you, even accidentally or incidentally.

The horse’s attitude towards you might improve with some significant and focused groundwork with him. Simple things, really, like leading properly, matching your steps, stopping when you stop, learning to stand on command while you walk away. But all of these simple things should be done with purpose and with him 100% focused on you. He doesn’t get to barge into your space (even just the slightest bit, even just with a shoulder); you back him off and when he does back up, let up the pressure and praise him. He has to learn to read you, whenever you’re around and take care of you. (I don’t mean this in a sappy way, just that he has to recognize that you are not another horse and he needs to be mindful).

If he does come at you with intent, or if he does just keep barging into you, make yourself big and, as others have said, give him the worst 15 seconds of his life. Be careful with this, though: if he is truly an aggressive horse (as opposed to an opportunistic one), escalating the situation by going after him could provoke him to do worse. You’ve got to be able to read the horse.

If he is aggressive then he should go to the trainer and not come back.

Good luck.

[NancyM]

One thing to add here… “treats” are a powerful motivator and tool. They need to be used wisely by the human, and not on a whim. Just walking out into a field and passing out treats for no reason other than “fun for the human”, can easily turn the human into a “treat dispensing machine” in the horse’s opinion. The horse demands a treat, and gets it- this gives the horse “power” in the horse’s mind, he’s calling the shots and you are complying. If you use a treat as “payment and appreciation for a job well done”, the horse can understand that. But if you hand out treats when the horse demands the treat and he has done nothing to earn the treat (other than being cute, and you love him), the horse feels the power of being in control of the situation, and will demand the treat, and get pissed off, at you, at another horse, if he doesn’t get what he wants, when he wants it. And the temper flares. The human has set up this situation, because they want to hand out treats willy-nilly. Don’t do that.

Use the treat as a part of your training. Go out to catch the horse and halter him. Bring the horse out of the field/herd. THEN give the treat, once away from the others, as “payment” for being haltered, and coming with you, so that he will want to do that again next time. No other horses are involved, it’s a “one on one” situation.

Walking out into a herd of horses with a sack full of treats requires that you control each and every horse in that herd, merely by your presence, and a “look” from you. You must dominate each and every horse, have worked with each and every horse extensively, and established a very strong relationship with each of them, including the herd leader who normally bosses everyone else around. Not everyone has that relationship with every horse in a herd of horses- some people do. But not in this case, apparently.

[Red_Barn]

@luvmyhackney

Would be worth you taking ground lessons with this horse to learn how to handle him.

Yep.

And, as you work with this miscreant, OP, your husband should be thanking you profusely for making his rogue into a solid citizen.

A horse that only behaves well for one person isn’t a safe horse, and these are the animals that often come to a bad end. Conversely, a human who lets herself be intimidated by one horse gradually loses confidence with horses in general, and that makes her a liability too.

You’ll be doing yourself and Mr Evil a big favor if you take the time to overcome this problem.

[Spudsmyguy]

@JB

Or he didn’t care, because he just doesn’t respect her. The target may have been the filly, but without the training to learn that humans are never, EVER to be put in danger, she was just collateral damage. It IS worse if the OP was the target. But it’s also 100% unacceptable if she was just in the way.

We had a horse that had been spoiled by his previous owner and had zero respect for humans. If he didn’t want to do something or was done with being cooperative he would fight. He dumped my husband on a trail ride along a paved bike path and he walked the rest of the way back to the trailer too unnerved to get back on. I think it was the next day I pulled him out and tied him to the trailer (big, heavy 4 horse) to work with him. He threw a tantrum just tied there. Flinging himself back and forth, kicking and pulled back so hard, he dragged that trailer through the mud. Then he sees me standing back watching this and swings his hind end around, cocks a leg and waited for me to come within striking distance, checking over his shoulder. Finally, with the use of a lunge whip, I got him tacked and mounted. He was dancing back and forth refusing to go forward and thought any second he’s going to rear. I dismount and put him on the lunge line and he swung around and kicked out so violently that I felt the air as his hoof went past my head. If I hadn’t stepped aside at that second I would have been dead.

I untack him, turn him back out and wait for husband to come home. I told him with that horse he has 3 options, he shoots him, takes him to the auction, or has him euthanized but he is leaving our property the next day. The next day was the auction and I have every reason to believe he either went to france on a hook or was pulled and bought by someone because he was so cute and very friendly on the ground.

[Spudsmyguy]

One more thing. My current horse had an issue with rearing on the lead line when someone other than I was handling him, like bringing him in from the pasture. He tried it with me once and I got in his face and bellowed at him “Don’t you ever do that with me dogdammit!” along with a couple of well timed smacks with my dressage whip. His eyes got big as he tried to back away from this crazy person. He knew he screwed up and never did it with me again. I advised the barn staff to use a chain over his nose until I install good leading manners. He got the point and has been a good citizen ever since.

[Scribbler]

I’ve worked with several green horses and observed many more. My observation is that every horse will try to treat humans like horses or like they are invisible until they are taught not to.

This includes biting, rearing, bucking in your direction, cow kicking, bulging into you and knocking you off the trail into the ditch, bolting in hand or on the longe, etc. These are all natural behaviors. Also pasture time with feed is potentially dangerous because at any time they may start crowding each other or go for a run.

Even with a well schooled horse all bets are off if they panic, whether that’s in hand under saddle or tied up. Some horses have developed panic reactions to being ridden or tied up.

I do a lot of ground work and liberty work, and try to keep my horses exercised enough that they are not bottled up explosive in a stall or going semi feral on pasture.

They need to be taught how to behave with you, and that takes consistent correct body language.

I think a husband horse might be a challenge if it is a big horse bought cheapish, ridden ocasionally by a beginner and allowed to sit around the rest of the time.