Perspective

[Cameraine]

Update to answer questions:

In the past I kept this gelding separate but next to my other horses. As I mentioned his acts of deliberate bad behavior have been numerous. To the point that one time I was deciding which GoPro to get to get video evidence so that for once my husband wouldn’t be able to deny the dangerous streak that his horse has. I will say that when my husband was working with the gelding on a regular basis he was much better. Not enough for me to ever trust him but better.

As for sending him off to the trainer. This plan has been on the books for a few months. I was just waiting for space with the trainer to open up. The gelding will be going to her on the 15th of January. It was supposed to be sooner but I finally wasn’t able to dodge the COVID bullet and have been laid up for the past couple weeks.

Currently he lives in one pasture with my pony and filly only because that is where the round bale they all eat off of is. But during meal times I bring the filly and the pony in to the barn and the gelding gets fed in his pasture. I also have a lunge whip any time I have to go in to that pasture for anything.

Thank you to everyone for the advice. It helps that I can see that his dangerous behavior isn’t only in my head.

I just want someone else’s perspective. I want to know that I am not crazy, I mean totally crazy, I have horses so I am a little crazy.

In my current pasture are three equines. A nine year old Welsh Pony mare, a 13 year old Appaloosa gelding and the love of my horsey life a Welsh Cob, Belgian Warmblood cross filly who will be a year old in April. She is literally a golden retriever in horse form. Anyway, here is what happened. Bear in mind for your perspective that this latest incident isn’t an isolated one.

I had just finished feeding everyone, waiting to put my filly out until she was completely done as she is the slowest eater and I don’t want her to get bullied for her food. The barn is in the middle of one pasture so the other two wait for the filly on the off chance she left a nibble or two in her feed pan.

I’m leaving and my puppy filly comes up to me and I’m rubbing her all over her head and dig in my pocket for a treat to give her. The Appaloosa gelding pushes his way in to my space. I wave my hand at him to get him to back off and the bastard whips around, and double barrel kicks me in the side. Thankfully he was close enough to me that I didn’t get too badly hurt but the ass hole could have broken my arm and my ribs.

As I said this is not the first time this gelding has gotten violent with me. Here is where I need perspective. This horse belongs to my husband, who rides occasionally, and works with him sporadically. Unfortunately for me my husband is never around when these incidents happen. So he only has my word on what happened and how. But he never believes that this horse does these things with malicious intent.

He constantly brings up the incident where my mare (passed away now) broke my ankle. In that incident I spooked my mare when I was trying to get on her bareback, fell off of her and when she went to flee away from me her foot flicked out and hit my ankle. There was no malicious, purposeful intent. It was truly an accident.

This gelding though has repeatedly kicked at me, snapped at me, bitten me, rushed the fence at me and nearly taken out my daughter twice(at which point I made the rule that my daughter could not be in a pasture with the gelding while he was loose or uncontrolled.)

Am I crazy for hating this horse? I had already made arrangements a few months ago for him to go off to a trainer so he could have a more intensive job, something to keep his brain engaged and hopefully bury his evil ways. I mean, am I missing something or is my husband just unwilling to see the dangerous streak in this horse?

[JB]

The gelding isn’t being evil or malicious. He has been trained by you, over time, that he’s allowed to be this way in your space. I don’t mean that in a disrespectful way at all, it’s really very common.

You probably didn’t even notice this behavior at its infant stage because he wasn’t acting out on it. But I guarantee he was getting closer, wrinkling his nose, doing unhappy things with his ears and tail, and generally seeing how far he could push thing.

Then he discovered he can push a lot, and now he’s very much in control over how he behaves in your presence.

He can go the trainer for a year, but you (and hubby but at least you since you’re the regular caretaker) need training too on how to recognize when this behavior is starting up again (because many of these horses WILL revert back to old behavior like this when back in their familiar environment.

You need training on how to keep him out of your space and never - I do mean never - coming closer until he’s got his happy face on and you have invited him.

If that’s not something you can do, then the horse needs to go, or he’s going to hurt someone for real, or be so bad he ends up in hands who are cruel to him and then he pays the price as well.

[frugalannie]

Cameraine, I certainly respect that family dynamics require behaviors specific to each relationship, so I’m just going to talk about horse behavior.

I manage a small (11 horse) boarding barn, where two of the horses are my own. I have in my board agreement that any horse kicking out or rearing under “normal handling” circumstances must go. Period. Too much of a safety issue. So having said, we as a group understand that a weanling may try something creative, and any horse can be silly any day. But responding aggressively to a human’s reasonable request for personal space is a non-starter.

If you have the option of sending this horse to a trainer please do so ASAP. Don’t wait until you or your daughter have a serious injury. And use the trainer’s evaluation when discussing this horse’s future with your husband. (I hope the trainer is female. This horse may only respect males and therefore the problem behavior won’t manifest itself at the trainer’s or to your husband.)

[Angela_Freda]

@Cameraine

So he only has my word on what happened and how.

Uh… Really?

I’d want everyone, you and daughter especially involved, working with this gelding.

[StormyDay]

No I don’t think you are being crazy or unreasonable at all.
I have met horses that were mean. I think that sometimes when a horse doesn’t get to stay with its mom or isn’t turned out into a herd situation when it’s very young, it doesn’t learn proper behaviors and will over-escalate situations. If you watch horses, they may kick out at each other but almost never actually hit each other. That’s because one kick can kill, and that behavior is quashed when the horse is young.

I would contact a trainer who specializes in behavioral issues like this. I’d carry a long whip at all times around the horse and make him back off of me with it. I’d also separate him from the other horses if possible. That is so when you go into his pasture, you can keep your attention solely on him to watch for behavioral changes.

In the mean time, Groundwork is key here; while leading him make him stop, back up, circle on himself. He should be paying attention to your body language. You shouldn’t have to use the lead line to get him to stop or walk. If he doesn’t stop when your body stops, smack him on the chest with the crop. If he doesn’t move the second you do, smack him on the side to get moving. You are the herd leader. Don’t let him circle you when turning; make him turn on himself.

Also, what is your response when he goes to bite you? Make sure you aren’t backing away or ‘submitting’ to him. Again, if a horse bites a herd leader, that horse is going to get his arse whooped. You are the herd leader. Unleash hell on that horse. He should be concerned you have lost your mind. When he rushes the fence, you should have that crop. Scream, jump, lunge at him, wave that crop around. Unleash your inner crazy person. He should run for the hills in terror.

When I was a kid, a trainer gave me this advice; if a horse does something to you that’s rude on purpose* you need to answer with twice back whatever the horse did. That’s what the herd leader would do.

• make sure it’s on purpose, and not justified. I’d never get after a horse who was in pain, or scared. Only ones doing it because they think they can.

[MadTrotter]

Not crazy for hating the horse, feel it and let it go because it’s not going to be a useful emotion to change the situation.

“Husband horses” need frequent attitude adjustments, I’ve found, or they just expect the lax boundaries they enjoy with their occasional, low-expectations husband riders.

Also, I would stop NOW carrying treats out into the herd, and start carrying a whip. If you see the beginnings of an aggressive menacing face from the gelding, shoo him away. Any biting, striking, or turning to kick, unleash hell.

Anyone entering the herd needs to do this until order is established.

You also need to get your husband on the same page about not “blaming” the various horses for wronging you. They are horses with behaviors that respond to conditioning and expectations, and do not harbor human emotions like grudges. If they seem to like someone more than others, it is because that person exhibits behaviors that they respond to, and for some horses that’s food, for others, they like a decisive leader who makes them feel safe.

If you can’t get everyone on the same page, you should get rid of this horse or tell your husband you’re not handling him anymore.

[NancyM]

You have more problems than just with the horse.
Put the appy in a separate corral, where you or your daughter won’t have to go in there with him. You can throw feed over the fence and water through the fence if it is up to you to look after him. He’s not your horse, and it doesn’t sound like you have the training experience to get into his head. Yup, you can send him off to some “trainer” who maybe does have this experience, but if you don’t learn how to access that appy brain adequately yourself, sending the horse for “training” won’t help your situation because the horse will simply continue to dominate you. And even if you do gain this knowledge and experience, your daughter may not have it. And the horse can discern who can get into his head and who can’t, and will act accordingly. So he’s not a safe horse to have around where you have to deal with him and where your daughter may come into contact with him at some point. So remove him from your herd, and remove yourself from having to deal with him. Good luck.

[luvmyhackney]

All of this.

Appys are really smart horses and learn quick.
Would be worth you taking ground lessons with this horse to learn how to handle him.

[BootsAndCoffee]

Whether he is being malicious or not is irrelevant. Your husband needs to accept that the behavior is dangerous.

If you can get help from a professional trainer, it would make things much easier (they can always spot the things we don’t realize we are doing/missing/etc).

[cutter99]

I sent a horse with issues like this to my trainer 2 weeks ago, and he will not be coming back. Things had gotten so bad with him that I did not go to feed him without a lunge whip in hand. The straw that broke the camel’s back was when I drove him off for shoving his back end at me to kick, and he came back at me to strike.

I am not a novice owner, have owned horses for 40+ years, and have never had a horse behave like this.

The trainer called me and told me the horse attempted it with him as well, more than once.

It is funny because he must have been stressing my other horses out as well. My barn has a totally different atmosphere, to the point that even the farrier commented on it yesterday.

I have no desire to get hurt, especially by a horse I do not have to own. There is something to be said for self preservation!

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@MadTrotter

Also, I would stop NOW carrying treats out into the herd, and start carrying a whip. If you see the beginnings of an aggressive menacing face from the gelding, shoo him away. Any biting, striking, or turning to kick, unleash hell.

Anyone entering the herd needs to do this until order is established.

You also need to get your husband on the same page about not “blaming” the various horses for wronging you. They are horses with behaviors that respond to conditioning and expectations, and do not harbor human emotions like grudges. If they seem to like someone more than others, it is because that person exhibits behaviors that they respond to, and for some horses that’s food, for others, they like a decisive leader who makes them feel safe.

If you can’t get everyone on the same page, you should get rid of this horse or tell your husband you’re not handling him anymore.

This.

I have a small family farm, with my husband and daughter involved in horse care and handling. I just sold a really nice warmblood mare this year, because she was a pain to handle on the ground at times. No aggression… she just could be spooky, and would often mentally check out, and escalate when spooking… she had a classic case of ‘warmblood brain.’ It was a pain to have a horse at home that I felt the need to micromanage at all times, because she was hard to handle 5% of the time… and it was very unpredictable as to when she would feel spooky. The horse was just better suited to living in a professional situation, that didn’t involve having kids around, and non horsey husbands helping with feeding and leading in and out.

If any of mine were randomly aggressive to the point of running up and kicking a person when someone was out in the field? I’d be seriously considering sending them to an appropriate pro for remedial ground manners education, then selling them.

[candyappy]

So much good advice.

He isn’t mean or malicious or he would be this way all the time.

He has been allowed to disrespect you and invade your space and when you throw the possibility of food in the mix ( your filly’s possible left grain) he is doing what any alpha horse would do to a herd mate-- make them move.

If you are capable and willing to do the work , I think it would be most beneficial if you and your daughter start intensive ground work with this gelding that focuses on his respecting his handlers.

It can happen so slowly we don’t see it until there is a real problem. It is fixable.

[LaurieB]

I agree with everything that has previously been said, but I also want to offer a slightly different take on what happened.

Your “puppy filly” is–by virtue of her age–at the bottom of the pecking order of your field. So to attempt to give her treats while your other two horses/ponies are loose nearby, is asking for trouble. In this instance, I think it might be equally likely that your Appy meant to kick out at the almost-yearling to show her who’s boss, and you got caught in the crossfire.

That said, you mentioned that the Appy has been violent with you before so obviously that kind of behavior has happened under different circumstances as well. If I were you, I would let your husband handle his own horse. Better safe than sorry.

Edited to add: Your young filly may seem like a puppy now, but there will come a day when she will begin to challenge you too. Even a Golden Retriever needs to learn basic respect for its human companion.

[joiedevie99]

@LaurieB

Your “puppy filly” is–by virtue of her age–at the bottom of the pecking order of your field. So to attempt to give her treats while your other two horses/ponies are loose nearby, is asking for trouble.

In addition to all of the other good advice you’ve gotten, this is very true. When you brought treats into the pasture, you set up a dangerous situation for everyone involved.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@LaurieB

Edited to add: Your young filly may seem like a puppy now, but there will come a day when she will begin to challenge you too. Even a Golden Retriever needs to learn basic respect for its human companion.

Yup.

[JB]

I will also offer up that if the gelding had manners instilled in him from the start, it wouldn’t have been an issue to have treats in the presence of loose horses.

I bring treats into the field on a fairly regular basis, some situations warrant more (ie needing to feed bute or or banamine twice a day, not just once, but also not bringing them in to eat more than once), and even when there were 4, they all know/knew it was unacceptable to even get happily-pushy to get their turn.

the problem was having “available” food in the presence of a loose horse with no ground manners.

I’m not quite clear where the filly was, and where the gelding was. Was she in a stall in the barn, and he’d already been turned out and they were just all waiting to go out into the pasture? Are these all open stalls with no doors? Why aren’t they all put into stalls to eat, so nobody requires supervision, nobody is wandering around the barn while someone is in a stall, etc?

[beowulf]

When I was a teenager my father had this horse. A Trakehner given away to us for free from a breeder because he developed navicular and some “behavioral issues” and was only sound for light riding. He was such a classically beautiful horse: chestnut, big bone, beautiful face and such a nice mover. I loved him right away (I mean, teenaged girl so… go figure).

He was a little pushy off the bat but nothing overly alarming. We’d had young horses, OTTBs, rude horses… all turned around with some ground work. He showed some promise although could be real rank and sneaky with a hind leg if you weren’t looking.

One day when I was fixing a fence, that horse cornered me in between the gate and the fence and kicked me until I dropped. I was on the ground for fifteen minutes and couldn’t even yell for help, that’s how badly he hurt me. I ended up crawling out of the paddock through the fence and crawled up the driveway. My mom saw me limping up the driveway and came running out, I told her what happened. All things considered I got off lightly - cracked ribs and lots of bruises on my hips and back, and that was it.

The next day, that horse was gone. All of this to say, when horses show you who they are, believe them.

I do agree with other posters that there are some parts of your situation that sound like there may be a lack of understanding body language or boundaries – and these things are genuinely fixable with a little more attention to your surroundings, training, and a bit more ‘mindful management’ of when and if food is involved. You threatened him, and he returned fire. In my eyes kicking out at a human is a total act of warfare and that horse needs to be in total fear of his life for the next fifteen seconds. While I don’t subscribe to the “alpha” side of training, there is value in being “Boss Mare” and every horse on your property needs to understand that you are the only one in control of your space, not them. Groundwork can fix this, but you may want to also start traveling in the field with a dressage whip – and groundwork is risky when the horse has a history of striking out and hitting his handlers. This is really something best reserved for a professional, who can first install these manners on your horse, and then watch you handle him and guide you through the better way to do things.

However, I don’t do horses that kick and hit people. Horses are totally aware of their kicks, and they are totally aware they can hurt. There are thousands of horses out there that would never dream of kicking a person. Those are the horses that stay in my yard.

[sascha]

@Cameraine

So he only has my word on what happened and how. But he never believes that this horse does these things with malicious intent.

You have a much bigger problem than a spoilt gelding

[Scribbler]

I’m not sure malicious is a useful word for pasture behavior.

Horses communicate with each other by biting and kicking. Many will absolutely try to communicate with humans in this way, unless they have had it clearly explained to them.

I’ve spent a certain amount of time with pasture horses. I prefer to carry a dressage whip and I am very careful about treats and feeding. My preference is to have my own horse trained to come to the gate to be haltered and I am super alert to being crowded by other horses. Being in a pasture with horses can be lovely but it carries a risk, and you need to be on alert all the time.

Especially when you know there are dynamics with the horses.

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

No, you’re not crazy. That horse has zero respect for you.

I was in a similar situation with my ex-instructor’s young horse. He tried to kill me twice. Both times, he knew what he was doing. He went to several trainers, who had no issues with him because they refused to take his crap, but when he came back, his owner would not reinforce that training. (Her filly, the same age as the gelding, also had zero respect for humans.)

This horse needs to learn to respect you and your space. No matter who is getting treats or why, no matter WHAT the situation is, this is unacceptable behavior. Work with him one-on-one first on the ground. Teach him to back away from you on command. Teach him that the whip means business, and so do you. Get some professional help if you need to. Don’t wait until it’s too late. If I hadn’t spun at the last second, I wouldn’t be typing this right now. That young horse would have killed me.

If your husband isn’t on board with all of this - too bad. Do it anyway.