Pessoa Rig for Lunging?/Other lunging aids

[raisethebar]

I have been looking into lunging aids to help my horse really connect himself together and teach him how to hold himself correctly (especially going right as he seems to be weaker that direction).

Around this time of year, he seems to benefit from an education lunge: educational meaning he is not flying around the ring bucking like crazy. I have put him in side reins but at the canter, he still is fighting them and he doesn’t really seem to soften in them (this is the issue that we are having under saddle at the moment). We will still continue to work with the side reins as I think he does need more time but we are still looking for something “more” if not “better”.

I have looked into the following:

Chambon
Pessoa Lunging System
Dover’s version of the Pessoa’s lunging system
Vienna Lunge Reins

Anyone have any thoughts about any of these? Anything else?

He fights me significantly to the right. We have been working with our chiro/vet to help but we are 100% confident that this is simply a weakness of this side and need to build it up over time.

OUR GOAL: He needs to learn how to go softer both directions without the fight. I figured I would let him fight himself instead of me and “show him” where he needs to be while building up muscling to be strong enough to not fight.

Thank you

[findeight]

I don’t know if it’s a good idea to put more restraint on him if he’s still fighting the relatively mild side reins. Really always preferred to let them figure it out on their own even if it takes more time before trying to force it. That just creates different evasions and some resentment. And that piece that goes around the butt in the “system” rigs to keep them from trailing behind can backfire pretty bad if they react by going straight up, maybe over. You can get both of you hurt.

It scares some of them while others have physical limitations that tucking up the rear aggravates. SI problems, hocks, spinal arthritis all sorts of things that could be causing the horse discomfort when asked to collect. Things that are not obvious to the naked eye.

Might be inclined to try a different pressure point like a bungee or the chambon to add poll pressure but hesitate to recommend anything without knowing more about the horse and it’s history. Hate to make a horse do something it’s really not physically able to do.

[ToTheNines]

I use a Pessoa once a week or so on mine. They generally follow a round-pen/hack/lesson/off routine.

However, I agree with findeight’s comments for the most part.

The Pessoa rig is mild or tough, depending how you use it, like every other training aid. I use mine in a round pen, with a halter NOT with a bit, and rigged loosely. Like this: https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/15975039_10210307599480800_49700367946240900_o.jpg?oh=dc8f87a6f604d9d924dfa30e9cc1f93b&oe=590C587E

At most, 30 minutes, and this includes a lot of walking. If they can canter eight times around, I figure that’s about the same time as a hunter round :). I never ever chase them around in it.

When I’ve gotten a new horse, I do not use the Pessoa rig until the horse is quiet and nice in the round pen. By this I mean, it is patient, knows how to go transition down in WTC, as well as up.

Like everything else, it’s a process to enjoy, and not be in a hurry for results.

[raisethebar]

The fight is all metal at this point. The horse previously had SI issues through his growth spurt and we have solved/continued to treat the SI with chiropractic work. He is 100x better and back to his normal self but we are needing to strengthen that area continuing further. The winter months encourage him resisting as he is 5 and more looky than normal. He gets turnout all day and we have an amazing trainer who suggested to lunge him 1x per week but I am looking for a little help as to what to lunge him in.

He eventually gives in to the side reins but I do not like where they put him. I feel like he trails out behind and he braces against the reins & I do not want him to start leaning on it. Tthis is why I am looking into the Pessoa lunging system as one aid so it can keep his hind end engaged and his back relaxed and pushing forward.

He goes well in a bungee (I have to find it, whoops) but I get a little nervous to lunge in them incase he relaxes too much and steps through it. I also bought a chambon and thought it helped until the leather ripped and I had to return it but this could also be a good option for him.

He isn’t a horse that gets nervous/goes up. He is simply looky outside of the area in the winter as 1 side of our indoor is open and you can see people walk all about. Normal days he gives it a side eye and continues to work.

Thanks for your suggestion findeight - does that help add any ideas? BTW - I love your user name

[LucilleBluth]

I like the Pessoa style rigs because they are so adjustable. I use it similarly to how ToTheNines posted above. My mare sounds like your guy. If I free lunge her, she’s a bit wild, but if I do a structured lunge on a line, she works. I also like that the Pessoa engages their hind end gently.

Granted, these tools are like others - there is a right way to use them and a wrong way. Just educate yourself first, obviously.

[ToTheNines]

…further to my post above, when you rig the Pessoa rig loosely, as I believe is correct, you may not like what you see for a while. But do not force a “frame”. Let them find it. There is nothing worse than the “compressed neck” look that I see with horses that have been constrained in training aids.

They will find a nice stretchy balance, I promise. The horse in the picture I posted is actually not as nice as he can be in the rig. He will get a nice neck, flat in front of the withers and flat behind the ears. That is what I look for anyway. Difficult to get a picture with good legs and good neck at the same time

[raisethebar]

Oh I would like to add that when I say “fight” he isn’t rearing, kicking out, doing anything dangerous. He just does not like to soften and relax through his back. The horse is generally quiet and loves to be left alone. The “fight” is working on collection and using his back and softening.

We take our time lunging and it is not a way to get him “quieter” as some hunter people use it as.

[raisethebar]

Awesome - I think I will be investing in one of these! Hope it works for my guy.

[findeight]

Well, the trick is to know if he really “doesn’t want” or doesn’t really understand how to soften or if he physically can’t round down the length of the spine.

I think judicious use of some of these things can help a horse understand if he has enough work in him for the addition of the gimmick to help. But if you guess he just doesn’t understand and he really doesn’t want to because it’s uncomfortable or even painful? You make things worse.

Would have to see a picture or video of how the horse is built to rule out trailing behind as a conformational or soundness problem before putting something on to force.

BTW, the chambon wont do squat for trailing behind but it will soften the front end and, ideally, give the horse the idea of stretching long and low and help the horse relax along the spine. The “systems” bump them on the butt to push the back end up. That’s were many get into trouble with it without proper foundation and introduction. If it’s hard/painful for them to bring the hocks up and push off of them, you can get into real trouble.

[findeight]

IME, got the best bang for my buck in the saddle trotting ground poles, low caveletti and hill work to develop a good back end to support collection and softness. Never had as good or as rapid improvement lunging. They learn more when you are on them even if you just sit there and let them pick their way through a low grid.

Now, thus time if year if you think he comes out like a fire breathing dragon? Then slap some loose side reins on him for some semblance of control and spin him around…you might be just fine when he’s full if it, he’ll work off his back end far better then poking around-you need impulsion, not head restriction.

Drive the back end forward to support the front, don’t bring the head back to the rear.

[raisethebar]

Thanks for all your help!

Our flatwork is coming along in both directions but definitely tougher to the right. The concept of understanding is certainly there but I would love to be able to have a tool in the toolbox to help.

I would put a picture up but I cannot honestly tell you I know how to do that on here!

[findeight]

Post it on a photo sharing site then share the link on here. Be sure not to mark it “private”.

Can he bend to the right when you are leading him? When he does bend is it from nose to tail or just the neck stopping at the shoulder with no bend thru the rest of the body?

At a good brisk walk on a straight line viewed from the side, does he take the same size step with both front and hind and right hinds or is it sometimes uneven?

Have a friend lead him at the brisk walk in a straight line on a flat surface going away from you, are the hips even or does one drop lower or rise higher then the other? Repeat at the trot.

Often times a horse that is “stiff” on one side isn’t stiff but sore.

[findeight]

Dam that missing edit…viewed from the side at the walk, the front feet take the same size step and the hinds take the same size step, look for one shorter then the other. Listen to him walk in oavement too, you can hear gait irregularity before you can see it sometimes, clip, clopshush, clip, clop, clip, clopshus. Listen for irregular sounds that repeat each time a particular hoof hits the ground.

[raisethebar]

Thanks findeight - we are working with our vet to make sure that he is sound as can be!

His SI’s were an issue previously due to his pelvis being previously “tilted down to the left and up to the right”. I think this is why going to the right is so hard for him, he is no longer in pain (he literally got adjusted last week) but I think because he once was when we were working through this issue, he still resists and has a mental block. This is the same exact thing that happened with his changes. He put up a fight to get them and now because we took our time to teach him correctly, he is basically automatic with them.

Before discovering about his SI’s, our vet told us to keep him in work so we can make sure we were finding out where the mystery was coming from. I think this is where the mental block is stemming from besides his age and his attitude. Right now, its almost like he is saying “growing up is hard work, do I really want to be grown up?”… (Honestly, I am saying the same exact thing right now as I am turning 25 soon so I can seriously relate) I also have these same feelings when working out and doing something that will strengthen my weakness.

His “work” consists of a 4 or 5 day plan. 1 jumping lesson a week and the rest hacks with maybe 1 day of throwing some small flower boxes in the mix. He is fit and has great care. I would just love to see him learn to not resist and soften more.

[raisethebar]

Thanks findeight - we are working with our vet to make sure that he is sound as can be!

His SI’s were an issue previously due to his pelvis being previously “tilted down to the left and up to the right”. I think this is why going to the right is so hard for him, he is no longer in pain (he literally got adjusted last week) but I think because he once was when we were working through this issue, he still resists and has a mental block. This is the same exact thing that happened with his changes. He put up a fight to get them and now because we took our time to teach him correctly, he is basically automatic with them.

Before discovering about his SI’s, our vet told us to keep him in work so we can make sure we were finding out where the mystery was coming from. I think this is where the mental block is stemming from besides his age and his attitude. Right now, its almost like he is saying “growing up is hard work, do I really want to be grown up?”… (Honestly, I am saying the same exact thing right now as I am turning 25 soon so I can seriously relate) I also have these same feelings when working out and doing something that will strengthen my weakness.

His “work” consists of a 4 or 5 day plan. 1 jumping lesson a week and the rest hacks with maybe 1 day of throwing some small flower boxes in the mix. He is fit and has great care. I would just love to see him learn to not resist and soften more.

[doublesstable]

The Pessoa system is fantastic… It has many adjustments so you can encourage the horse to engage the hind end along with a balanced front end. Chambones, side reins and the like will not do that.

I had a few young horses years ago that I worked with professional Dressage trainers and it really helped build proper muscle to prepare them for under saddle work later.

If you have a local trainer that knows this system can help you get started in the right direction.

[MyssMyst]

[QUOTE=findeight;9016428]
Well, the trick is to know if he really “doesn’t want” or doesn’t really understand how to soften or if he physically can’t round down the length of the spine.

I think judicious use of some of these things can help a horse understand if he has enough work in him for the addition of the gimmick to help. But if you guess he just doesn’t understand and he really doesn’t want to because it’s uncomfortable or even painful? You make things worse.

Would have to see a picture or video of how the horse is built to rule out trailing behind as a conformational or soundness problem before putting something on to force.

BTW, the chambon wont do squat for trailing behind but it will soften the front end and, ideally, give the horse the idea of stretching long and low and help the horse relax along the spine. The “systems” bump them on the butt to push the back end up. That’s were many get into trouble with it without proper foundation and introduction. If it’s hard/painful for them to bring the hocks up and push off of them, you can get into real trouble.[/QUOTE]

I completely agree. Rather than a Pessoa, since I hate having their butts connected to their mouth, I will usually use a chambon and run one of those physical therapy rubber stretchy band things behind. I haven’t tried the halter idea, though.

I also agree with FindEight about the poles.

Have you tried ground stretches?

[ladyj79]

Learn how to long line.

[Senszuri]

I use the Dover version of the Pessoa system, which has elastic lines. Some similar systems are made of rope with no give. (Just an FYI, the bit that comes with this “set” from Dover is a POS. I threw it away).

My mare was introduced to the system properly with her trainer. It was a big help in bringing her back from rehab and is now currently integrated into our regular training program as she is back in full work. The rig is very adjustable and is set-up to put her in a relaxed “frame” (hate that word), lifting her back and stretching into the contact. Humans riding are not always 100% consistent in contact and aids, where the system provides even and consistent contact.

On days when my horse is worked in the system, we do a lot of transitions and some pole work. This has strengthened her hind end and stopped her swapping issue in the hind end when cantering. (AFTER all potential medical causes were ruled out and it was determined to be a weakness. She is on a regular vet/chiropractic/massage schedule with a custom fit saddle, etc…)

I personally would never put a horse in the system without being on a lunge line. In an emergency, you have no control over the horse if they are in the system, loose in the arena or roundpen. Introduce the system slowly and correctly; with a trainer if you are unfamiliar with how to use it and adjust it to your horse. I never hook up the system if she’s fresh and hasn’t had time to blow some steam if she (occasionally) needs to.

It’s not the solution for all horses. I agree with previous posters that you need to rule out medical and physical limitations before you use it.

[raisethebar]

Thank you Senzuri - it seems like you were in the exact same situation as I am now.

Again, my horse is SOUND and he is in routine care under my vet for chiro/massages/acupuncture. All potential medical issues are ruled out - his pelvis “issue” we are working through and it is 100% better than what it was. Now we have to work on building the muscle back up CORRECTLY as he was building muscle incorrectly for so long while his pelvis was causing problems. A lot of his resistance/“fight” is coming from incorrect muscle memory from before we figured out his issue and the fact that he is simply weaker the one direction vs the other.