If you do want to try one, you can get knockoffs at many tack shops.
Greenhawk in Canada has theirs as part of the Mondega line of products.
If you are in the US, with the current exchange rate, it would be less than $100 for you.
http://greenhawk.com/wdItemDesc.asp?strilhID=Web&strmdNumber=RIE6365&stricSKU=RIE6365
I like the Pessoa with my guy. It keeps him focused on “working” while we lunge if nothing else. Our flat work while riding has improved since we started using it as well.
This has all been very usefull. Thanks to everyone. Im still deciding on weather to buy or build. While poking around the knock offs I came across this one for dover. http://www.doversaddlery.com/balance-complete-training-system/p/X1-30141/?ids=rp1adjzuuyjzp4543zasqhnu it seems like a good deal considering it comes with the caveson, surcingle, and the “rig” its self. Has anyone bought this product? I will most likely end up making one as 100 bucks for some rope and pulleys for me, coming from a background of sailing is just absurd. All the needed items for a pessoa style rig can be had for under 20 dollars at a hardware store.
They are very simple to construct if you are familiar with them. When using one many years ago one of the ropes frayed and snapped so my boyfriend and I replaced it with climbing rope. It wasn’t difficult with the knowledge of how it was originally designed and needed to function.
I’ve used it extensively on many different types of horses. It works for some and not others. Start slow for short intervals. Some horses take quite a long time to get to the point where they can canter at all in it. And of course it is only as effective as the operator.
My current horse - it does virtually nothing for him.
The Dover one stinks- it is very cheaply made. I bought one years ago trying to save money and returned it after putting it on my horse and thinking I could do better to build one myself.
I love the Pessoa- it’s great for babies and horses who don’t yet understand connection and working over their back.
I have used a lot of these rigs and all have value for different goals at different times. One common ‘problem’ is that most of them do not help with a horse who goes behind the bit. The Gogue (a Chambon with an addition strap) can help with this problem, but it is VERY easy to hurt a horse with a Gogue (also called a deGogue).
You are approaching things the right way, though — asking for help and becoming knowledgeable.
BE AWARE that any of these training aids can easily make a horse very sore. They are, each in their own way, asking a horse to use muscles that the horse has been avoiding. When starting a program, start very slowly. First, warm the horse up for 5 minutes in each direction. Then put the rig on loosely and work the horse for 3 minutes in each direction. Then remove the rig and do a ‘cool down, muscle stretch’ in each direction.
Increase work and tightness SLOWLY, always starting with a warm up. Know when the horse is going in the frame you want to establish, and do not keep tightening beyond that. More is NOT better, either in time or in tightness.
The late great Ronnie Mutch said that a Pessoa rig was as dangerous as “a razor in a monkey’s hand”. But it can be used safely and effectively if you are careful and know when to stop.
[QUOTE=Xanthoria;8457665]
I did a comparison of some of the various lungeing gadgets for my own edification once, and looking at the physics of them you can see that the only one that encourages a horse’s head forward and round on the lunge is the chambon.
Pessoa, Vienna, bungies etc only encourage downward motion ie the bit describes a fixed arc and there’s pressure on the bars, and maybe poll. If you can’t engage a horse’s butt without a butt strap as seen on the Pessoa by using your voice and whip, take some lunge lessons to help (or create a simple butt strap if you prefer: they’re not evil alone, but horses do get used to them and tune them out, then you’re back to needing to use other aids anyway)
A chambon etc works by exerting gentle pressure over the poll and on the bit if the horse raises its head too high. Once the horse stretches, the chambon becomes loose. And they can stretch down and out, not just down.
The Pessoa also nags at the horse’s mouth, as every stride the ropes get pulled by the action of the horse’s legs, and in my experience (I used one for a few months, weekly) the horses didn’t improve.
That’s my $0.02! :yes:
ETA: found an article that supports this: http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/gadgets.php[/QUOTE]
This is worth repeating.
I understand the appeal of the Pessoa, I really do - but it is basically rope that their body wraps around through the bit - it is a function of artifice, and encourages the horse to work in a frame that is not at all supple or soft. That and every stride of the way the horse’s mouth is being punished…
[QUOTE=OTTB_;8457595]
I feel like i’m walking into a minefield here but hey its horses right? I have been riding for about 7 years and just recently bought a really nice OTTB prospect last year. Before I bought him he had a year in a felid to chill and the previous honor decided she didn’t really want to go through with training after-all and sold him. Long story short a freak injury which has healed fully with no restrictions had him laid up for a few months and now we are going through the process of legging him up again and getting him 2 where he was before he was injured doing 2’6 courses and moving up very well to a goal of 3’0-3’3 maybe higher if he shows he can do it. A friend suggested a pessoa style system and I had mixed thoughts.
-I really don’t like gadgets and would never crank down on a horse with any lungeing system or other aid for that matter. But if they are used properly and the horse shows a positive improvement and not just cranking down I am fine with them. Im a big believer in natural horsemanship and spend lots of time working with ground work.
-But I have seen this system work well for many horses who use it once maybe twice a week on a loose setting for 10-15 min so they get a good workout a guess you could call it. SO my question is what are you honest thoughts on a system like this for my situation. My intended use would be once every week or every other week for 10-15 to help my horse along with getting him back up and finding his balance again. I want to hear your true and honest thoughts. Also no way i’m spending 200 bucks for some rope and a few pulleys who has made these before and who has had good luck?
Thanks in advance![/QUOTE]
I think the way you intend to use it would do no harm. My horse as KS and my vet recommended using one to help get him back in shape after some time off and injections. I made the mistake of purchasing a Horze brand one. Same exact design as a name-brand Pessoa but it runs SMALL. I extended it out to the largest size in every direction possible and strapped my horse in. He was standing there with his nose to his chest so I removed it IMMEDIATELY and sold it. He’s only 15.3 but is fairly long and muscular. Moral of the story is, if you do decide to get one, don’t go cheap like I did!
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8459449]
I have used a lot of these rigs and all have value for different goals at different times. One common ‘problem’ is that most of them do not help with a horse who goes behind the bit. The Gogue (a Chambon with an addition strap) can help with this problem, but it is VERY easy to hurt a horse with a Gogue (also called a deGogue).
You are approaching things the right way, though — asking for help and becoming knowledgeable.
BE AWARE that any of these training aids can easily make a horse very sore. They are, each in their own way, asking a horse to use muscles that the horse has been avoiding. When starting a program, start very slowly. First, warm the horse up for 5 minutes in each direction. Then put the rig on loosely and work the horse for 3 minutes in each direction. Then remove the rig and do a ‘cool down, muscle stretch’ in each direction.
Increase work and tightness SLOWLY, always starting with a warm up. Know when the horse is going in the frame you want to establish, and do not keep tightening beyond that. More is NOT better, either in time or in tightness.
The late great Ronnie Mutch said that a Pessoa rig was as dangerous as “a razor in a monkey’s hand”. But it can be used safely and effectively if you are careful and know when to stop.[/QUOTE]
This should be repeated. I have and will use a deGogue. I found it very helpful in building up a horse with KS…and am considering using it to help a greener OTTB…BUT I have known MANY people who abused it and made horses sore. Actually seen several people make horses sore with lunging in general.
These are TOOLs…that need to be used very carefully. I typically start very loose, do mostly transitions (it is the transitions that build strength not running around in a circle), MOVE MY OWN FEET so the circle is kept very large and do not ever use them for very long. Most horses never need more than 10-15 minutes total…and you have to work up to that. I typically change directions MORE THAN ONCE. And you really have to watch your horse.
Im going to poke around the barn today see what I can scrap up from the storage bins and see If I can throw one together. This has all been VERY useful thank you everyone!
One rig I have never used is the balancing rein. Is that because it is more useful for dressage horses who need to develop a really full top line and a vertical head position?
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8459839]
One rig I have never used is the balancing rein. Is that because it is more useful for dressage horses who need to develop a really full top line and a vertical head position?[/QUOTE]
The balancing rein or sliding side rein is one that I use a lot. I find it better than regular side reins for teaching a horse about contact. But you have to know what you are doing and really ask the horse to come forward. I think because it is a better tool for teaching a horse about contact that it is used more by those doing dressage (or eventing).
[QUOTE=OTTB_;8459224]
This has all been very usefull. Thanks to everyone. Im still deciding on weather to buy or build. While poking around the knock offs I came across this one for dover. http://www.doversaddlery.com/balance-complete-training-system/p/X1-30141/?ids=rp1adjzuuyjzp4543zasqhnu it seems like a good deal considering it comes with the caveson, surcingle, and the “rig” its self. Has anyone bought this product? I will most likely end up making one as 100 bucks for some rope and pulleys for me, coming from a background of sailing is just absurd. All the needed items for a pessoa style rig can be had for under 20 dollars at a hardware store.[/QUOTE]
The Dover version uses a bungee material instead of rope… just in case you missed that in the reviews because the description doesn’t state it. The surcingle and caveson aren’t fantastic quality, but for the cheaper price they aren’t bad.
Good to know ^^
I would not advocate using any “system” that saws on the horse’s mouth. Side reins, Vienna or balancing reins are a much more correct way to get the horse to use themselves…especially if you are not a professional trainer who knows EXACTLY how to use these tools. You need someone at your side talking/teaching you how to use any training tools. You can do a lot more damage than good trying to learn about this on the internet if this is your first exposure to this rig!
Found a complete (almost) list of rigs/gadgets. Interesting, although I don’t think I saw the German Martingale on the list. I will have to go back to look.
[QUOTE=Lusoluv;8460367]
I would not advocate using any “system” that saws on the horse’s mouth. Side reins, Vienna or balancing reins are a much more correct way to get the horse to use themselves…especially if you are not a professional trainer who knows EXACTLY how to use these tools. You need someone at your side talking/teaching you how to use any training tools. You can do a lot more damage than good trying to learn about this on the internet if this is your first exposure to this rig![/QUOTE]
I was just going to post this! I learned from the “man himself” on use of The Ropes. That was decades ago! I could not imagine using them without being taught correctly. Ropes and pullies that come of a UPS box could do a lot of great things for a horse or a lot of damage. But I would advocate any “system” that works safely and correctly for a rider, horse or trainer. If Pessoa’s “system” helped him and his son become so successful, it can’t be half bad :lol:
I worked with my horse and trainer today and borrowed a friends pessoa. All in all it was a good experience. We set it really loose just for him to get used to it Instead of my horses normal giraffe style head carriage while lunging he set his head much like he would under saddle. (he sets his head like a dream under saddle with little or no effort) We trotted him maybe 6 min total 3 min in each direction and there was no bucking or him rejecting or fighting the device. I am overall happy with how it went and will be trying it again with him next week.
I have found them to be quite effective - here’s a few pointers:
Only use them on fairly well broke horses. I would not put this rig on a young horse until they have found their balance and are well trained to voice on the lunge. Side reins are enough for the young ones.
Make sure your horse is OK with the butt ropes - introduce that part slowly and carefully.
Do not use on a fresh horse - let them get the bucks out, then put the rig on.
Start long enough that the horse can warm up - but not so long that the ropes can get caught up if the horse kicks or stumbles.
Don’t use more than 2x per week and really 15 min per side is more than enough. I’d say 75% trot 25% canter.
Look for consistency in the gaits. Even steps, round circle, no breaking from canter to trot or vice versa, stay on the right lead - do not allow the horse to cross or counter canter. See if they relax into the rig, chew the bit and soften the eye.
I like to lengthen the ropes at the end of the work so the horse can have a stretch.
Have a cooler handy to keep their back warm as soon as you are done and walk the horse until cool.
Personally, I don’t like the idea of that many ropes and pullys going on a horse. For what may be a marginal benefit, I feel there is a lot that could go wrong. A chambon is much safer IMO, and less room for error with use. As long as you have the horse pushing forward from behind, I think the chambon can achieve what you are looking for more safely, and more inexpensively.
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