PETA panties are wadded *originally re: docked tails on horses, train sidetracked & is now discussing dogs 😎

[S1969]

@sascha

Many of them when they get trotting along at speed will hold up a hind leg for a few strides, not missing a beat or slowing down, just going along 3-legged for a bit, then getting back into 4-legged, then maybe back to 3-legged again a few strides later. A hitch in their git-along if you will.

Well, some breeds hitch at a gallop because of the proportions of their legs v. body – for example dachshunds, because their legs are very short. They were bred to tunnel, though, not gallop.

But it’s just as likely that many of the JRTs you’ve seen are bred by bad, backyard breeders who aren’t breeding to the standard and/or are not testing for/selecting for health - especially the obvious hip and elbow dysplasia, and luxating patellas which plague many breeds.

So, before anyone jumps on a soapbox about tail docking, especially when done by reputable breeders - they should be sure they aren’t the same people buying puppies from an Amish puppy mill, “backyard breeders”, or buy one of the gazillions of doodle mixes that are produced without health testing. Many more dogs are at risk for serious and long lasting issues from hips, elbows and patellas, as well as congenital heart and eye issues than docked tails.

ETA: for example, FB friend who is a lovely person. Bought (although the “breeder” used the word “adoption”) two doodle littermates ($2K each) last year. One has barely any femoral head at all in one hip. The surgery is out of their price range as that puppy and the littermate will probably need multiple surgeries as all their hips are bad. 100% inexcusable.

[sascha]

@S1969

But it’s just as likely that many of the JRTs you’ve seen are bred by bad, backyard breeders who aren’t breeding to the standard and/or are not testing for/selecting for health - especially the obvious hip and elbow dysplasia, and luxating patellas which plague many breeds.

Probably not a good assumption to make, but carry on. LoL

And fwiw, nobody on here has said that docking is a more important issue than bad breeding, or worse, “doodle” type monstrosities. But just because it may not be top of the list of injustices done to dog breeds, doesn’t mean it doesn’t warrant attention and discussion. Same as with docking of draft breeds of horses. Is it the worst thing that can happen to a horse? No. Are there legitimate reasons to carry on with the practice at this point in time? That warrants discussion, and in some parts of the world, that discussion has already been had, horses are no longer docked, and it seems to be going just fine for them.

[S1969]

@sascha

Probably not a good assumption to make, but carry on. LoL

LOL why not? I’ve seen some absolutely atrocious fronts on JRTs. It’s far more likely to be the cause of lameness than a docked tail.

I am happy to discuss docking, but find it absolutely exhausting to have to listen to idiots talk about “hybrid vigor” and Embark DNA tests and “breeder guarantees” when the most prevalent health issues in dogs are not single genes that can be detected by a cheek swab.

PETA will have their panties wadded over docked tails, but also mane pulling, spurs, and even just riding. I don’t care about PETA’s position because it’s so extreme.

But it’s pretty common for average pet owners to buy a craptastically bred puppy and then soap box about docked tails and purebred dogs. And they probably also circumcise all their boys and pierced their 2 year old’s ears. And think my horses are blindfolded because they have a flymask on.

[Ghazzu]

You seem to be aruging that because there is other stupidity in the world, it excuses a particular form of stupidity.
Most of us are in favor of a wholesale reduction in stupidity.
But small improvements are welcomed, if that is all that is possible at any given point.

[sascha]

@S1969

why not?

Because you have zero idea of who the dog people I have called my friends are. Not backyard purchasers, not backyard breeders, not customers of shady breeders of any type.

I have known, and know currently, people that would fit in those categories, they and their pets are not of whom I speak.

But again, carry on, making assumptions and trying to convince us that tail amputation is much better than other things and therefore perfectly acceptable and not even worth discussing.

[S1969]

Well, sure, stupidity. But also, and more importantly here on COTH - is hypocrisy.

For some reason, COTH supports the purebred horse industry, the concept of careful breeding, quality investments in stud services and proving a mare’s worth before breeding. And is quick to support strong and decisive training, negative reinforcement as a standard, and a come to Jesus when deserved.

But with dogs - there is a general disdain of purebred dogs, dog showing (even in some instances some kinds of performance), a general support for rescues over breeders, and that only R+ training is acceptable when dealing with dogs.

I don’t get it.

The average pet owner is stupid. The average COTH poster is not. But they are biased against the exact same things in dogs that they support in horses, seemingly because they “are just pets and not a performance animal.”

Not everyone. But generally speaking, yes.

[S1969]

@sascha

Because you have zero idea of who the dog people I have called my friends are. Not backyard purchasers, not backyard breeders, not customers of shady breeders of any type.

Why would I have had any idea you were talking about your friends? You said “the JRT hitch” as if that was a thing you see all the time.

Do you actually know the breeders though? I know some horse people that breed dogs in an unused stall. Just because they aren’t shady doesn’t mean they are actually good breeders.

[ASB_Stars]

@Ghazzu

You seem to be aruging that because there is other stupidity in the world, it excuses a particular form of stupidity.
Most of us are in favor of a wholesale reduction in stupidity.
But small improvements are welcomed, if that is all that is possible at any given point.

100%

I have had multiple ESS. I do think that it is odd that they dock their tails, because they have voluminous feathers and long fluffy ears that just LOVE to find burrs of any sort, and hold on. If they did not have docked tails, they’d have more burrs, but what the hell- they can already load up the aforementioned body parts.

I simply reached a point where I believe that it’s heinous to alter horse tails in any shape form or fashion, and then the cow thing came along, which is also sad. I can live with the puppy tail thing, sort of. I have only had two dogs in my life that had tails by the time that they came to me. The one that I have now can clear the coffee table with it. That was an adjustment.

[Ghazzu]

I really haven’t seen a general disdain for responsible purebred dog breeding here.
My impression is that the posters who want a specific breed for a given purpose, or even because they have a particular fondness for that breed are not castigated for it.
OTOH, someone who is looking for a dog (generic), may well be urged to check out shelter/rescue dogs, particularly if they express any hesitation about dealing with a puppy.

All of my dogs could be considered “rescues”, I suppose, even though several have been purebred, 2 of whom came from their breeders as young adults looking for homes.

Over the years, I’ve had breeders of both dogs and horses as clients.
Some were, IMHO, more responsible than others (more philosophical differences than anything else), but none of them were idiots. Not to say they aren’t out there, though.

And Doodles are, in general, abominations.
But that sort of greed seems to be a human trait–look at all the get rich quick schemes involving llamas, alpacas, emus, ostriches, and pot-belly pigs.

[Ghazzu]

At the risk of being murdered, I should add “homozygous black Arabians” as an older GRQ scheme.
I swear, one might have thought that the gene for ugly was on the same chromosome as the gene for black.

[chestnutmarebeware]

That sounds more like a luxating patella than anything related to tail docking. Small dogs are more prone to the issue.

[ASB_Stars]

There seems to be a deal in horses where if it’s black, it must be stunning.

[S1969]

@Ghazzu

I really haven’t seen a general disdain for responsible purebred dog breeding here.
My impression is that the posters who want a specific breed for a given purpose, or even because they have a particular fondness for that breed are not castigated for it.
OTOH, someone who is looking for a dog (generic), may well be urged to check out shelter/rescue dogs, particularly if they express any hesitation about dealing with a puppy.

Perhaps disdain is not the right word. But a double standard. Because your post is a perfect example.

Someone wants a dog (generic) who will live in their house with their kids and sleep in their beds for the next 12-15 years and COTH suggests a shelter.

Someone wants a horse (generic) who will be boarded and do some local H/J shows - and no one suggests an auction. Because you get what you pay for.

Also –
“You should carry a crop in the ring because your horse doesn’t get to choose whether to go over the jump or not” - OK
“You should put an e-collar on your dog when off leash because he doesn’t get to choose whether to recall or not” - NOT OK

Just saying. I don’t get it.

[SusanO]

Here’s what I don’t get - I have never seen a team of Friesen’s that didn’t have long full tails, whether it was one, two or multiples of two. I don’t think I have seen any horses in combined driving with docked tails. Likewise a team of DHH’s. Now I am not an expert on driving but these examples do not walk slowly down the road and I would think if a tail was a problem you would run into it pretty quickly. So why draft horses?

[endlessclimb]

Hey I don’t ride with a crop so there’s that.

A digression - and e collar is more like draw reins than a crop. 99.9 % of riders do not have the skills to use one correctly. Just because someone sucks at timing and putting the work in doesn’t mean they get to inflict pain (with crappy timing, no less) to get the job done. E collar = draw reins.

[ASB_Stars]

@endlessclimb

Hey I don’t ride with a crop so there’s that.

A digression - and e collar is more like draw reins than a crop. 99.9 % of riders do not have the skills to use one correctly. Just because someone sucks at timing and putting the work in doesn’t mean they get to inflict pain (with crappy timing, no less) to get the job done. E collar = draw reins.

Dressage riders learn to use their whip in the rhythm of the gait in order to ask for more activity in th e hind end, hence the longer whips. You are actually doing something useful.

A hunter whip- or batt- is more about “smack smack- bad horsie”.

[endlessclimb]

I don’t have a problem with crops, or whips, when used appropriately.

The glory of it being, if you use it inappropriately you’re liable to get decked.

A dog with an ecollar doesn’t have the luxury of instant revenge for a moron with something to prove and their finger on the hot button.

Edit, this is a disagreement between @S1969 and I on whether e collars are acceptable. My vote is, 99% of the time no. I also am an ALWAYS no on force breaking retrieves into dogs. There is no reason to pinch a dogs ear/toe so hard they SCREAM so you can cram the item to be retrieved into their mouth, in order to teach them “retrieve or else”. That is abuse, out and out, no doubts in my mind.

[S1969]

@endlessclimb

A digression - and e collar is more like draw reins than a crop. 99.9 % of riders do not have the skills to use one correctly. Just because someone sucks at timing and putting the work in doesn’t mean they get to inflict pain (with crappy timing, no less) to get the job done. E collar = draw reins.

If used correctly, an e-collar is exactly like a crop or spurs. It’s purpose is to apply pressure in an R- method.

So, if used correctly, you don’t object?

[endlessclimb]

Correct. 99% of people do not know how to use one, or haven’t done their homework to not need to use one to start with.

Edit: nearly all the “top trainers” have puppies 5 months old in a collar already, sometimes two of them. 5 - freaking - months. It’s about speed, not good training (which takes years!).

[ThreeWishes]

Nahhh I think they’re lovely Dobies