[QUOTE=Equibrit;4200319]
Monkeys and razorblades ![/QUOTE]
Get on the horse and stab it over and over again!
[QUOTE=Equibrit;4200319]
Monkeys and razorblades ![/QUOTE][QUOTE=warmbloodguy;4204936]Get on the horse and stab it over and over again![/QUOTE]Sometimes, I feel like I’m conversing on a foreign language on COTH, b/c some posts don’t make ANY cense to me at all… but it’s clear that it’s easier to read an advice about the dressage jacket color, top hat, and hair buns on COTH than an advice about “half steps”… where do all of the very knowledgeable people disappear??? Makes me wonder…
I thought there were some very good comments that were very insightful.
[QUOTE=MyReality;4202566]
Amazing. A horse actually piaffe in the field and he actually can piaffe without collection. What do I know. They should start asking for piaffe in intro, why the wait. Come to think about it… while out on a hack one time, my horse piaffed the whole two hours. Goodness that was fun… and he was very round the whole time too… well I guess if I am to choose between piaffing and bolting home, I can at least keep him in a piaffe. hahahaha (Some very ignorant lady commented to me “wow he is the most beautiful horse I have ever seen”. I should have sold him as a schoolmaster then right there.) And one time in a parade, my horse did two Levades when we were to cross some railroad tracks. Everyone was very impressed. One time when I was in the arena and it started to hail, he did a capriole, I bailed… I mean got off… in a very elegant manner… I thought such advanced movement should be done from the ground, like they do in theee classical style.[/QUOTE]
OP - I know a lot of the comments seem a little obscure, but there is a good point in this one - a horse jogging or jigging in place for a moment is not the same as piaffe, because it is a reaction to tension, or a moment of playfulness, not a highly controlled series of steps done in a very specific posture and tempo. Just as the levade is not just a half-rear, but a careful balancing in a specific posture under the control of the rider or handler. Developing the horse to do the movements like that in a very specific way requires the levels of dressage schooling another poster outlined - the one mentioning the turn on the haunches, transitions within the trot, etc. When the horse can regulate his movements under the rider’s guidances THAT specifically, then he can begin to piaffe. If you just teach him to jig or jog in place, it will be a movement full of tension, or turn into a bad habit.
Actually, in my experience, it’s not uncommon for dressage horses learning the piaffe or passage to temporarily get into the bad habit of using it as an evasion during the trot - I’ve watched several upper level riders work on keeping the trot and passage distinct, and having some problems with it, during the learning process.
here, this should suit you then, OP: Shove him into the bridle and spank him, there you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLOZj29Pmoo&feature=related
or get unlucky and get this response:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Y7juIUf-A&feature=related
or get your cranium out of your rectum and spend the sort of time it takes to create this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnZ6jLRg01w&feature=related
[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4205070]
Sometimes, I feel like I’m conversing on a foreign language on COTH, b/c some posts don’t make ANY cense to me at all… but it’s clear that it’s easier to read an advice about the dressage jacket color, top hat, and hair buns on COTH than an advice about “half steps”… where do all of the very knowledgeable people disappear??? Makes me wonder…[/QUOTE]
‘Like a razor blade in the hands of a monkey’ is a oft quoted saying and seems perfectly apropos for this situation - unqualified people playing with tools that can do harm. 
I don’t understand why so many have responded nastily.
Some horses do piaffe naturally when they are kept behind the herd. No, it’s not the same as we want in GP tests, but it’s a start.
If you want to do it - keep practising.
[QUOTE=oldbag;4205985]
I don’t understand why so many have responded nastily.
Some horses do piaffe naturally when they are kept behind the herd. No, it’s not the same as we want in GP tests, but it’s a start.
If you want to do it - keep practising.[/QUOTE]
Some horses do piaffe naturally because they have the conformation that allows them to do it. Some horses piaffe naturally and properly at liberty because they have been bred to do so. I am referring to baroque breeds of horses. This is what they do and most do it on their own, for fun.
That does not mean other breeds of horses cannot do it at liberty. They may have the build and the talent for it, but that does not mean that they can perform as well – and safely! – under saddle. No!
For ALL horses, baroque or no – to carry the rider the muscles must be built up. To sustain the piaffe with rider or free, the muscles must be built up. To perform the piaffe on command properly and without strain, the muscles must be built up.
If this is not done, and especially for horses who are not conformationally built to do piaffe, you risk injury to stifles and hocks.
It’s an advanced movement and not a trick you just “teach” because the horse has a natural inclination to do so.
My 2 cents
Eileen
Wasn’t it Ideayoda who said she saw a horse break its leg some years back when someone tried to teach it to piaffe next to a fence? I personally doubt this is the sort of thing anyone should mess with unless they have someone more experienced to guide them and to gradually condition their horse thru proper training.
Some horses piaffe naturally and properly at liberty because they have been bred to do so. I am referring to baroque breeds of horses. This is what they do and most do it on their own, for fun.
Whatever the horse does when loose and playing in the pasture does not matter, nor does its breed or type. Whatever it does out of tension and excitement, from being held back by the hand, also does not matter. The Lipizanners also piaffed in the movie The White Stallions when they were tied in the train. it does not matter to me, or to many others, that they do this. That this means they have ‘talent’ that can be co-opted, to me is wrong.
Doing the work in training and under saddle does matter, and is very different to do so carrying a rider. Even baroque horses should not made to piaffe as youngsters of 3, they are no different from any other type of horse in needing gradual strengthening of the back and hind quarters to do this work. Baroque horses are not ‘excused’ from basics due to any sort of special build or ‘talent’ and need the same basics of stretching and simple work for years before they undertake advanced work. Where I get this? From an importer of Lusitano and Andalusian horses, who told me the mindset of people that these horses are ‘talented’ leads to flat out abuse and very improper training.
I also am curious about how UL movements are taught, doesn’t mean I’m going to go try it out on the yard-pony, enjoyed the helpful responses but don’t really see the need for nastiness either. EVERYBODY started somewhere, why not foster the curiosity instead of squelch it?
[QUOTE=Albion;4205916]
‘Like a razor blade in the hands of a monkey’ is a oft quoted saying and seems perfectly apropos for this situation - unqualified people playing with tools that can do harm. [/QUOTE]Yes, Arthur Kottas said that teaching half steps in hand can be very dangerous for the horse and for the handler. I also said several times that it is very dangerous and horse might kick, buck, rear… But you can start working in the saddle on the prequalification’s that are needed to prep most horses for the FUTURE “half steps” work: clear transitions from gait to gait, crisp transitions with in the gait, canter/walk transitions, marching walk pirouettes, loaded Rein Back = those are not razors in the monkey’s hands. Those are good “basics” for the “half steps”. May be some people who don’t have the half steps can look at those prerequisites and clearly understand what they are missing and go back to fixing the missing prerequisites?
[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4199149]The prerequisite work:
*Clear transitions: down and up transitions should be very clear and on the bit and lowering the hunches in those transitions.
*Clear transitions with in the gait: extended trot to collected trot and work on the 2-3 steps of those transitions, since this is where the half steps live.
*Obedient canter/walk transitions in self carriage focusing on loading of the hunches = to develop hind end muscles + abs.
-
Marching walk pirouettes with marching hind legs on the spot = to explain the idea of marching on the spot.
-
Loaded, correct Rein Back with correct loading of the hunches = to explain the correct loading of the hunches.
If you have those prerequisites, you can start on the actual exercise of teaching half steps.[/QUOTE]
Bestwtbever!
Good for you for seeking knowledge and being curious!
You may find this interesting:
http://www.cheval-haute-ecole.com/indexA311.html
You will find all the other upper level movements clearly explained here also!
My horse is just learning passage, piaffe. (From a very experienced instructor).
For him, it is best taught under saddle, passage first, then a few steps of piaffe. We have been at it about six months. His passage is really developing and he is understanding piaffe.
I agree with others who have said “do not play with this yourself”, it really needs a very experienced person.
I strongly disagree with the reaction (sometimes expressed here), that implies that “the mysteries of dressage” can only be shared with a select few!:winkgrin:
Enjoy learning about dressage ~ maybe we will convert you to the dark side!
how about this one?
was at a dressage barn a few years ago with a very accomplished Prix St. George rider and trainer. I came one day and she came running out asking me if I knew what my horse had
Can’t this trainer teach you?
TO the original poster:
There is a very cool book by Phillipe Karl called “Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage”. I really enjoyed it. He does an excellent job of describing classical training techniques and has awesome diagrams ad pictures show how the horse should move in different manuvers.
I particularly like his method of teching piaffe, which was done from the saddle without the aid of a ground person. The way piaffe is “normally” trained seems borderline abusive to me and most horses trained that way seem to go thru a period of extreme frustration/agitation before they learn to relax into the piaffe (some never do get thru it). That always bothered me.
Keep in mind while reading the book, many of the things he complains about in regards to “modern” dressage are more prevalent in the European dreaage community (particularly Germany), and are not necessarily what USDF does.
[QUOTE=chambe94;4208277]
TO the original poster:
There is a very cool book by Phillipe Karl called “Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage”. I really enjoyed it. He does an excellent job of describing classical training techniques and has awesome diagrams ad pictures show how the horse should move in different manuvers.
I particularly like his method of teching piaffe, which was done from the saddle without the aid of a ground person. The way piaffe is “normally” trained seems borderline abusive to me and most horses trained that way seem to go thru a period of extreme frustration/agitation before they learn to relax into the piaffe (some never do get thru it). That always bothered me.
Keep in mind while reading the book, many of the things he complains about in regards to “modern” dressage are more prevalent in the European dreaage community (particularly Germany), and are not necessarily what USDF does.[/QUOTE]
Thats so sad. I know my horse loves to piaffe and offers it willingly and even when I dont ask sometimes because he knows he will get a sugar cube! I think most of the world class FEI horses are not taught piaffe in any traumatic way, most look like they enjoy doing it and are playing. I just can’t see how you would get anywhere if your horse is frustrated or agitated when you teach it. Or maybe those trainers go through a lot of horses before they find one that will tolerate that style of training.
There are horses with a natural piaffe, something a dressage rider should prize like the Holy Grail. 
It is a gift. I think the person was purely telling you that you had a gift that should be loved.
Training it to a natural horse is far easier than training it to a horse who has no inclination to do the exercise. Again, this is a gift. People can debate the aids to teach it to infinity, no way is the absolute right way. Some learn it out of the passage, some learn it by half stepping, some learn it on the ground, some learn it by merely pushing your toes down laterally side it side in the saddle. You have to have a good instructor or trainer who knows what this horse needs! Now that takes talent. I’ve seen it taught at least ten ways. I’ve done it at least ten ways, and all were ways the horse needed.
Find a good trainer and ask them for some lessons. Internet lessons are not what you need, you need to have actual teaching. Good luck, and success.
I just recently did my horses first piaffe clinic with a great clinician for it and while it was a lot of fun I would not recommend doing it without someone very experienced. We got a lot of responses that were not piaffe since the horse does not realise that the “forward but in place” aids do not mean rear, buck, back up, kick, etc. So you tend to get all of those responses as well. She did really well with the piaffe but there were some good bucks that almost unseated me, and many more perfect levades. And you just have to quietly ride it all out until you get a couple piaffe steps to reward.
It’s not rocket science, folks, I really am surprised at the hoopla. :rolleyes: It would be good, OP, if you could get a lesson or two from your dressage trainer first and keep in mind it’s always a work in progress. Reward often and if it all starts to go to he!! in a handbasket, just put it away for awhile. It IS one of those movements (flying changes are another one) that you can “fry” their little brains with, so be kind and careful. Dressage Art had some good suggestions.
