Pitbull attack

[khall]

Sswor, I would support charging owners of dogs that kill a person with manslaughter. The dangerous dog laws and leash laws need more teeth but BSL s are not useful in lessening dog bite fatalities. If people cannot (and we see it all the time) be more responsible pet owners then they should suffer the consequences. I also support education and rehabilitation for pet owners.

I have fostered for years, most of the young and adult dogs I have ended up had no basic training to speak of, no leash manners, no impulse control etc. All of my fosters go through training while they are here with me, even the puppies. For one to make them easier to care for and two to make them more adoptable. Some require more work than others but all improve with consistent training. Once instilled it is easy to maintain and even expand.

[xQHDQ]

@2tempe

I find it weird that it is ok to not like certain breeds such as shepherds, chows, yorkies, labs, etc and those breed fanciers do not get all bent out of shape. But if you dont like Pit Bull types, you are somehow a narrow-minded, illogical, stereotyping person…
I suspect that breed-specific rescues are better at vetting the appropriate owner for their dogs. Take-all shelters may or may not do temperment testing on dogs, but I agree that they probably only vet potential owners for ability to afford a dog, take it to vet, and maybe kids/no kids - basic stuff.

It’s not that people are not allowed to have likes and dislikes. It’s that people shouldn’t lump ALL dogs of a certain breed together, and they should let other people have their likes and dislikes.

I love my pitty but I chose her carefully and spent a lot of time training her. I don’t recommend these dogs for everyone; I don’t even recommend MY dog for everyone as she has certain quirks; however, I would recommend my last pitty for everyone as she was a saint. But even her, she needed a lot of exercise until she was 12 years of age - that’s a commitment, so maybe even her I wouldn’t recommend for everyone…(and that’s kind of the point).

I am not a bad person because I like pit bulls as a whole, which is what some people seem to express. I think that’s what pit bull aficionados feel, so they (we) defend our chosen breed more than others.

[Equisis]

@Sswor

Well sure. People laughed at your aggressive ankle-biter because it could not kill a person, not even really harm a person unless you stuck your hands right down in there…and you’d have to chose to do that. People don’t laugh at a pit that acts like that because that pit can cause serious damage that is no laughing matter.

Surely you understand that.

Of course I understand that. My point was more to demonstrate that serious aggression can occur in any dog, even those breeds considered to be great family dogs. I’ve been bitten twice in my life- both goldens, one of which was a very poorly socialized family pet with a bite history. Most dogs were originally bred with some sort of violent purpose- personal or livestock protection, hunting, etc. Its not as black and white as some believe.

FWIW- “ankle biter” could and did cause bodily harm to a family member. It wasn’t my dog, thankfully; my lifestyle would not permit ownership of such a problematic dog, regardless of breed. I would have euthanized him.

[GoodTimes]

@Equisis

Most dogs were originally bred with some sort of violent purpose- personal or livestock protection, hunting, etc. Its not as black and white as some believe.

.

True. Except that retrievers and bird dogs in general should really have no aggressive tendencies. Towards humans, other dogs, or “prey”. There shouldn’t be anything violent about retrieving a duck, or pointing, etc. One of our training tools is having the dog retrieve an egg, it teaches them to be very gentle when carrying things.
A golden with a bite history is essentially the worst example of the breed.

I think the “pit bull” people would probably be surprised to learn how many responsible owners have had to make the sad decision to euthanize healthy dogs of other breeds because of signs of aggression.
My parents had to make the difficult choice to euthanize a 2yo Chesapeake. She was well socialized, raised in the house with us kids, was turning in to a great field trial dog, but every once in awhile she’d get this look and no one could get through to her. My sister tripped one day, about 10’ away from the dog, but she ran in and nipped at her. That was it, she was gone by the afternoon. The breeder was surprised, and obviously upset. But was understanding and she stopped using both the bitch and sire because she didn’t want to risk it happening again.
My grandfather had to make the difficult choice to euthanize his 8yo german wire hair. She started to develop some dementia and got nervous around strangers, and very territorial. She became a liability, so he had her put down before someone got hurt.

I personally don’t understand the focus on rehabbing dogs that have shown aggressive tendencies. There are so many dogs out there who are friendly, easier to manage, and just as enjoyable.
If an individual pit actually is a “nanny dog” than great. But the second any dog, regardless of breed, size, or age show aggressive tendencies, it should be euthanized.

[Sswor]

@xQHDQ

It’s not that people are not allowed to have likes and dislikes. It’s that people shouldn’t lump ALL dogs of a certain breed together, and they should let other people have their likes and dislikes.

I love my pitty but I chose her carefully and spent a lot of time training her. I don’t recommend these dogs for everyone; I don’t even recommend MY dog for everyone as she has certain quirks; however, I would recommend my last pitty for everyone as she was a saint. But even her, she needed a lot of exercise until she was 12 years of age - that’s a commitment, so maybe even her I wouldn’t recommend for everyone…(and that’s kind of the point).

I am not a bad person because I like pit bulls as a whole, which is what some people seem to express. I think that’s what pit bull aficionados feel, so they (we) defend our chosen breed more than others.

For the record, my dog trainer–whom I’m pretty sure walks on water–is a pit person. Two of her 4 are pit crosses, all 4 are terrier or terrier mixes. I knew this about her when I started lessons with her and signed up anyway. I have run one of her pit crosses and he’s incredible. Truthfully, I’m a little afraid of him, haha, but mostly because he is WAY better at agility then I am and blindly fast. I feel like a 9yo handing an uzi. He’s very humbling. But wonderful, just a wonderful, sweet, intense!, but friendly and balanced dog. I still respect him. I respect all dogs anymore, honestly. My very good friend has a funny Dachshund. I adore this dog but absolutely respect his space. He has bitten, though it’s more a fear biter thing. Not me, but friend believes in full disclosure so I was aware when meeting him. So I just respect his space, talk pretty to him, let him chose the interaction level and speed and it’s all wiggly good. But that ‘funny’ Dachshund isn’t going to take my arm off if things go south so yes, big dogs of certain breeding deserve supreme respect. I just wish it always was reciprocated on the other end of the leash. If the law needs to get involved then so be it.

I totally agree BSL is likely a complete waste of time. That or it will be so punitive and cumbersome to everyone that it’s not a can of legislative worms I want opened.

[HannahsMom7]

@HannahsMom7

there was another pit bull attached human death in a neighboring town near me. Mother was having seizure. dog mauled her to death. police were called and had to taser that dog to get it off her. horrible.
https://turnto10.com/news/local/woman-mauled-to-death-by-family-dog-while-suffering-from-seizure

an update that popped up: dog that police said attacked and killed a Somerset woman was put down, according to the town manager’s office.

The town said the decision to euthanize the dog was made by the family.

Police said the dog mauled 44-year-old Melissa Astacio while she was having a seizure last month. Astacio died at a hospital.

The dog, named Amigo, was with the family since he was a puppy.

[beowulf]

I wish people were realistic about dogs.

There, fixed it.

It’s a dog issue, not a breed issue. “Pitbulls” don’t have different jaw structures, mechanics, fighting styles, anatomy, whatever, than other dogs of similar size and type. There’s no magical elixir that exists in a pitbull that isn’t in other dog breeds. No innate physical structure. No hidden row of razor teeth.

So far all scientific studies have heartily concluded you cannot reliably identify a mix’s breed contributors by looks. That is what these news reports are doing - identifying a “breed” by its looks.

Until every “pitbull attack” is documented with a DNA test, I’ll continue to say this is a dog issue, not a breed specific one. Pitbulls are not a breed.

These studies are posted every time this subject comes up on COTH… and they all say the same thing: Am-Staff terriers (which is what most associate with “pitbulls”) are not more dangerous than other dog breeds. Huskies and GSDs have consistently topped the charts as the most dangerous in these studies.

BTW. I considered posting about this, as I’ve been involved in three dog-mauling events now. People have no idea what a 50lb dog of any breed is capable of until they witness it first hand. It’s not something I would wish on anyone… but the reality is, any dog of decent size is capable of incredible damage.

My 81 year old grandmother was mauled by a dog this fall. She’s passed this dog on her daily walk every day for the last three years. It has attacked three people now and I do not understand how it is not humanely destroyed. It degloved part of her calf and dragged its owner to her, to maul her. If the dog hadn’t physically been hauled off of her by a neighbor who watched the whole thing, she would have been “just another headline” – which is incredibly hard for me to come to reality over.

It was a belgian sheepdog. Not a pitbull. Not a terrier. Not a GSD, husky, lab…

I have a lot of peripheral experience with shelter dogs, rescues, and “pitbulls”. They are such a wide swath of types, you can’t cast a blanket over all of them - and many of them that are “pitbulls” have no Am-Staff or terrier in them at all. Dogs in shelters, from unknown backgrounds, run the gamut from purebred to complete and total mutt with no purebred ancestry – this is especially dependent on location, socioeconomic influence, and culture… but if they have a blocky head, they’re called a “pit”… No way to know until you do a DNA test.

Has anyone ever wondered why it’s only the US that seems to have such an issue with PBs? Terriers are extremely common in UK…

Anyone curious about this, can ask their town for dog bite reports – all reported dog bites are tracked by the town’s governance… and it is public information. In the town I live in, huskies and GSDs have been the #1 for years - and there’s a fair amount of “pitbull types” here.

[Kemosabe]

Pitt bulls have been banned in the UK under the Dangerous Dogs Act, 1991.

Germany has prohibited American Pitbull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and English Bull Terrier since 2001.

Denmark has prohibited American Pitbull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, American Bulldog since 2011

Spain has the same prohibitions which began in 2002, and France in 1999. Italy revised its prohibited dog list in 2007.

We can’t utterly disregard what all these various breeds were bred for. Pit bulls were bred to bite and hold bulls, and bears. As in many breeds, there are breeders of pit bull terriers that still breed for aggression. Heck there are still dog fighting groups in the US.

[beowulf]

@Kemosabe

Pitt bulls have been banned in the UK under the Dangerous Dogs Act, 1991.

Germany has prohibited American Pitbull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and English Bull Terrier since 2001.

[…]

We can’t utterly disregard what all these various breeds were bred for. Pit bulls were bred to bite and hold bulls, and bears. As in many breeds, there are breeders of pit bull terriers that still breed for aggression. Heck there are still dog fighting groups in the US.

This isn’t correct. I can’t speak for Denmark or Spain, I have zero experience with either - but I know this isn’t the case in Germany. There are certain restrictions on import, but they are not hard and fast, and vary from municipality to municipality.

There are bull terriers, staffies, and Am-Staffs all over Germany. There are Bull Terrier and Staffordshire breeders all over Europe. These are common common breeds. Many townships in Germany require dog licenses/registration in towns - and there are Staffies and Bull Terriers among that roster.

@DE Customs

The import ban under federal Land legislation is not an absolute import ban. The locally competent authorities of the Land in which the dog is intended to be kept permanently, in spite of a ban, can issue an official authorisation to keep the dog.

These breeds are not “outlawed” among German citizens either. There are only a few municipalities with “breed bans”, and it is not the majority.

Your argument about “utterly disregarding” what all the various breeds are bred for is all fine and good, except, many of the dog attacks in the US are done by dogs with no certified/tested breed/ancestry. So you have no idea what breed they are… because no testing was ever done, and you can’t accurately predict the dog’s breed from looks alone.

[dkcbr]

We can’t utterly disregard what all these various breeds were bred for. Pit bulls were bred to bite and hold bulls, and bears. As in many breeds, there are breeders of pit bull terriers that still breed for aggression. Heck there are still dog fighting groups in the US.

Agreed, and I think I would feel less ill-at-ease with the bully breeds if owners and fanciers would just acknowledge these points instead of saying 1) other breeds bite, too and 2) nobody even knows what a pit bull is.

I’m not advocating for breed banning, but I am advocating for knowing the potential of what dog you have - no matter what the breed or type.

For example, like people who love, for example, Border Collies or Australian Shepherds and are shocked - shocked! - when one of these herders tries to herd and nip kids.

Or who love German Shepherd Dogs or Belgian Malinois, yet also want to overlook their purpose-bred nature and pretend like they are no more likely to be overly protective and guard-y and driven than other breeds.

Pretending that a lot of these short-coated, muscular dogs with blocky heads and small ears in the shelter aren’t pits or pit mixes, likely with sketchy backgrounds, does no good for the breed or for the public. And insisting that those large, wide jaws and muscular builds wouldn’t inflict a lot of damage if things go south is disingenuous.

I just wish everyone could look honestly at the long history behind their chosen breeds and/or mixes, so they can work with their dogs to make them the best canine citizens possible while also respecting that not everyone is comfortable with strong dogs bred to fight being adopted out to JQPublic.

[beowulf]

@dkcbr

Agreed, and I think I would feel less ill-at-ease with the bully breeds if owners and fanciers would just acknowledge these points instead of saying 1) other breeds bite, too and 2) nobody even knows what a pit bull is.

I’m not advocating for breed banning, but I am advocating for knowing the potential of what dog you have - no matter what the breed or type.

[ … ]

Pretending that a lot of these short-coated, muscular dogs with blocky heads and small ears in the shelter aren’t pits or pit mixes, likely with sketchy backgrounds, does no good for the breed or for the public. And insisting that those large, wide jaws and muscular builds wouldn’t inflict a lot of damage if things go south is disingenuous.

I just wish everyone could look honestly at the long history behind their chosen breeds and/or mixes, so they can work with their dogs to make them the best canine citizens possible while also respecting that not everyone is comfortable with strong dogs bred to fight being adopted out to JQPublic.

I get that - I do… but at the same time, this goes across the board for any dog that is big (50lb+). Dogs are capable of way more damage than the average person realizes. People attribute all of these wild adjectives meant to spur emotion, when referring to attacks done by PB types - but they don’t realize, a GSD or husky or labrador is just as capable - and they have done it too!

I’m not saying terriers don’t bite. They can, and do. And they are capable of as much damage as any other breed or type of dog of similar size/body.

However, I am saying from experience, working in shelters, having DNA tested my own dogs and/or dogs I’ve fostered, there are very few “pure bred” Am Staff (or other bully breed) terriers running amok in shelters.

You would really be surprised at the results of these DNA testings. I have had dogs (owned and fostered) that looked like they were dead ringers for Am Staff terriers… and they have either had very little, to no purebred ancestry. Some haven’t even had any terrier show up on their panel at all…

Think for yourself, is what I am saying.

If science tells you “it is unreliable to predict a dog’s breed by looks alone” why are you trusting what a source, with zero experience with dogs, is telling you? Can’t you see the inconsistencies in these narratives?

[Denali6298]

All the owners and fanciers of the bully breeds I know do not ignore the negatives about these dogs nor do they ignore what they are capable of. Also, there are people out there who have zero clue what they look like. Boxer mix? Pit Bull. Heck I’ve had people tell me my dog has pit in him and he looks like an over grown Shiba.

The reaction that seems like the owners and fanciers ignore the issues of these dogs is usually a reaction to people who want them extinct. Ie the OP. That is an over the top emotional reaction IMO.

These dogs like any other, aren’t the right dogs for everyone. In the right home they are wonderful. Like any other breed. We have people on this board who say you can’t train aggression due to “protecting me” out of dogs and yet insist on owning them. Those same people want the pit and pit mixes gone. It makes no sense.

[CanadianTrotter]

@Kemosabe

Pitt bulls have been banned in the UK under the Dangerous Dogs Act, 1991.

Germany has prohibited American Pitbull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and English Bull Terrier since 2001.

Denmark has prohibited American Pitbull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, American Bulldog since 2011

Spain has the same prohibitions which began in 2002, and France in 1999. Italy revised its prohibited dog list in 2007.

We can’t utterly disregard what all these various breeds were bred for. Pit bulls were bred to bite and hold bulls, and bears. As in many breeds, there are breeders of pit bull terriers that still breed for aggression. Heck there are still dog fighting groups in the US.

They’re also banned in Ontario Canada since 2005 and Quebec is attempting to put a ban on them currently as well.

[Sswor]

On another thread also current on this board, people are insisting that dog dna breed testing is unreliable. The akc would be thrilled if breeds had actual dna markers that we knew how to read reliably but apparently we don’t/can’t/they don’t exist.

So if dna testing is unreliable, and you can’t tell what breeding a dog is just by looking at it, how does one determine the breed or type of a dog as a descriptor? How does anyone? Vets, breed clubs, dog clubs, competition venues, breeders, fanciers, dog owners themselves? Registration papers? So what. Papers can be faked and in any case, chances are you didn’t witness the breeding, birth, and every day of puppy raising. You don’t even know if “Chesterton’s Silver Bullet” is the doggo that answers to Chester in front of you. You just know chances are good the papers aren’t faked, the breeder isn’t a clever con man, and it sure looks like a _______ whatever it’s supposed to be so good enough.

Unless it’s a bulldog/mastiff/terrier mixed breed dog commonly referred to as “pit bull”. Then no one can tell what breeding it can be so no descriptive breed/type term is acceptable and we should just simply reference it as “dog”.

Yet somehow all the Shepherds and Huskies that run amuck and maul and kill can be positively IDed as Shepherds and Huskies. No question there.

[CaliforniaDreamer]

I would like to note that the breed ban in Ontario is closer to being lifted after a Private member bill was put forward to end it. Quebec has also taken steps to abandon their ban on Pit bulls in Bill 128. Breed bans don’t work.

[Kemosabe]

Breed bans across the world:

https://petolog.com/articles/banned-dogs.html

For the record, I am not in favor of breed bans.

But when my own dog was attacked by a pit, not a GSD, not a Chihuahua, not a JRT, not a boxer, yes I am going to be wary of pits.

[CanadianTrotter]

@CaliforniaDreamer

I would like to note that the breed ban in Ontario is closer to being lifted after a Private member bill was put forward to end it. Quebec has also taken steps to abandon their ban on Pit bulls in Bill 128. Breed bans don’t work.

If by chance it is lifted it will hopefully have a much stricter pit bull law so that it doesn’t spiral out of control again. I personally would love to see the pitbull reintroduced to Ontario under very extreme and strict laws and enforcement. I doubt that this will happen so I think the safest and easiest way to keep the pit bull problem under control is to keep the ban.

How anyone can say the Ontario breed ban didn’t work is beyond my understanding.

[CaliforniaDreamer]

@CanadianTrotter

If by chance it is lifted it will hopefully have a much stricter pit bull law so that it doesn’t spiral out of control again. I personally would love to see the pitbull reintroduced to Ontario under very extreme and strict laws and enforcement. I doubt that this will happen so I think the safest and easiest way to keep the pit bull problem under control is to keep the ban.

How anyone can say the Ontario breed ban didn’t work is beyond my understanding.

Because I see Pits every day…Ontario is a pretty big place. Your experience from your corner of it, may not be the same for others in different areas.

[CanadianTrotter]

@CaliforniaDreamer

Because I see Pits every day…Ontario is a pretty big place. Your experience from your corner of it, may not be the same for others in different areas.

Of course you see pit bulls, everyday or otherwise. The ban was not a complete ban, there’s quite a few of them all over Ontario.

The ban that was enforced worked for what it was intended. It was a success.

[dog_amp_horsemom]

Its January 2020 and we already have two deaths by dogs - in this instance , both are pitbulls. A man in Kentucky - the woman who owns the dog may be charged with murder and a baby in Ohio, parents aren’t charged although they left the child alone with the dog. 2019 saw an all time high of human fatalities by dog maulings - 48 total. Last year was in the 30’s. This is in the U.S.