Pitfalls of an older green horse?

Hey y’all, I’m usually hanging out in the dressage forum, since that’s what I’ve been riding lately. I’m planning to go back to my roots, which is western pleasure and trail riding. I am not interested in showing, just like to ride for fun.

I’m a bit of a rerider, grew up riding and rode actively till my early 20’s. Last horse I owned was bought as a weanling and I backed him and sold him as a 3 year old working nicely under saddle. I rode off and on for many years, mostly off, and then 2 years ago started back riding regularly. I’ve been taking dressage lessons and leasing a horse, riding 3 to 4 times a week. Currently leasing a super sensitive thoroughbred who was a bit abused in the past. She’s working really, really well for me, but owner won’t sell and she’s never going to be a laid back trail horse either. My riding level would probably be classified as low level advanced, if that makes sense. My seat, legs, and hands are good and I am a confident rider. However, I am now 56 and feel like I need to stay on the safe side and not go looking for trouble, if you know what I mean.

I’m interested in an 8 year old QH mare, cutting horse breeding, who was backed and ridden very lightly as a 3 year old, then used as a broodmare for a few years, and has now been brought back into work. Mare seems very sensible and calm. I do love a bit of a project horse, so would enjoy bringing her along, but don’t want to put myself in a risky spot at my age. I do seem to have a Prozac like effect on horses, I often get along really well with horses who are a bit high strung or have confidence issues, but i really want my next horse to be my old lady horse, so I want solid and steady and reasonable. This horse seems to be all of those things, but she is really green. Advice, anyone?

TIA

As I started reading this I thought to myself “not a mare” and specifically I would add not a QH, and not a cutting QH. They’re bred to be aggressive and quick.

But that’s a generalization.

In our experience, an older mare is set in her ways, used to having things on her terms more, might be the dominant mare in the bunch, a brood mare has been used to being the boss of her foal for at least part of the year. We’ve starting riding mares at ages 7 and 6 after a similar start and they learned just fine but they were always stubborn and opinionated in comparison to our other mares.

It really depends on the individual horse, but, in general, horses that have had most of their adult lives to do as they wish often resent being put to work.

By “cutting bred” do you mean there’s some Doc Bar and Poco Bueno back in the pedigree, or do you mean she’s closer up High Brow Cat, Smart Little Lena, Dual Pep, etc? If she’s more old school, foundation type breeding, she might be quite steady. If she’s more modern bred, she may be more reactive than what you seem to be looking for.

I only have experience with a few older green horses, but both have been WP bloodlines and geldings. Both were started and injured, but kept as lovely pets for their whole lives with good treatment. I sold them both after 6 months as beginner trail and arena horses. They were the best horses I owned if you wanted to pokey doke down the trail and the arena. I am not sure I would take on a mare with cutting breeding, she may be calm and sensible but content with just trail riding I am not sure, it depends on the mare but on paper that would be a no in my opinion.

Thanks y’all. I was worried about work ethic in a horse that is so late in training. Sounds like this could potentially be a problem. I think I will wait for something a little more suited to what I want to do. I appreciate all of the responses.

I wouldn’t fuss about the work ethic, but if she really IS cutting-horse bred (as in, they sold futurity prospects from her, not she’s a great-granddaughter of Smart Little Lena or some other big-money cutting horse sire),
…they you are probably looking at some reactivity. They kind of can’t help it, they can be high strung and if you say, ‘boo’, they’ll startle a lot more easily than your average horse.
What happens after they startle, you can train and you can gain trust, and get a fabulous horse. But when I flush a rabbit out of a sagebrush, the cutting horse mares STARTLE, and the appendix and Storm-Cat bred TB just sorta pfwha…ok, rabbit…

[QUOTE=stb;7450161]
Thanks y’all. I was worried about work ethic in a horse that is so late in training. Sounds like this could potentially be a problem. I think I will wait for something a little more suited to what I want to do. I appreciate all of the responses.[/QUOTE]

IMO, you are right to be worried about a work ethic that has not been installed and polished on. You might get to a day where you say Go and horse says No…. and someone needs to answer the horse.

So riding the older one who hasn’t had a job isn’t unlike riding the green one in terms of skill, courage or commitment to being an effective rider. Your “prozac ride” has gotten you so far (and kept you safe) on scared horses. It either won’t matter or won’t help for the horse who doesn’t have a work ethic. At the very worst, you’ll get along by avoiding any necessary confrontation until you have a horse calling the shots.

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7450246]
I wouldn’t fuss about the work ethic, but if she really IS cutting-horse bred (as in, they sold futurity prospects from her, not she’s a great-granddaughter of Smart Little Lena or some other big-money cutting horse sire),
…they you are probably looking at some reactivity. They kind of can’t help it, they can be high strung and if you say, ‘boo’, they’ll startle a lot more easily than your average horse.
What happens after they startle, you can train and you can gain trust, and get a fabulous horse. But when I flush a rabbit out of a sagebrush, the cutting horse mares STARTLE, and the appendix and Storm-Cat bred TB just sorta pfwha…ok, rabbit…[/QUOTE]

OT, sorry, but thank you for this observation. It explains so much about my horse! He’s not a chicken by any stretch - in fact, he’s very brave about things that scare lots of horses silly - but wow! has he got one heck of a startle reflex! This always kind of puzzled me - but since reading your post I think his pedigree might provide the explanation.

It depends on the horse.

Some horses aren’t mentally ready to have a job at age 3 and need pasture time to mature.

In my experience, the older horses have been a breeze to get going good. Their mind is mature and their body can handle physical work. If this mare is sweet and calm as you say she is, I don’t see why you couldn’t give her a try. You say cutting bred, but what has her sire and dam accomplished? Often times, the “big names” are farther back in the pedigree and are diluted to some extent. Papers don’t mean everything, one way or the other.

My favorite “older” horse was a 5-year-old mare who pretty much only had ground work done when I got her. Within 30 days she was neck reining, doing flying lead changes, working cattle, and anything else I tried with her. She was a real good working horse.

I don’t hardly ever post here, but I felt the need to speak up on this particular thread.

I grew up with horses. I have been showing since I was a kid. Trail, WP, barrels, poles, etc. I am a barrel racer. Recently I have had some interest in reining and am probably going to play around with it.

I used to make a living (well, half a living) buying, training & selling horses. I was ADAMANT about NOT buying anything over the age of 3 that wasn’t broke. Over the years, I sold and rode a lot of horses. Recently (the last 2 years) I have started some older horses (5-6yr olds) that had nothing done with them except general handling. Let me tell you what… I will NEVER buy another young horse again, EVER!! These older horses have been AMAZING to start. They are mentally & physically mature. They tolerate things much better, I could go a little faster pace with them and not worry about blowing their minds or putting too much stress on young joints and bones. Once I had the horse riding, I could go RIGHT to work. No waiting on knees to close, etc. Honestly, I MUCH prefer an older horse. It’s just too bad that I had the “young horse” frame of mind for so long b/c this hand full of older horses have been MUCH easier to work with and getting a finished product is much quicker.

My current horse is a 15hh 5 year old QH mare. She is reining bred (not her parents but both sets of grandparents). When I got her a little over a month ago she hadn’t even had a halter on her till the day before. I did end up using a stud chain on her to help with the halter breaking but I was able to take it off on day three. The last unbroke horse I worked with was a three year old and let me tell you my horse is so much better to work with. Thankfully she was use to having someone touch her everwhere but her legs. I have put 40 hours of ground work into her, 30 before I got on her. (I am a big believer in what you do on the ground transfers to their back) She has been a dream to work with. Her brain is mostly mature, she doesn’t spook at every little thing (and our ranch is busy, we are a children’s home and there’s tons of activity all the time, cars zooming past, etc.), and never even reacted to a saddle being put on her back after only a week of working with her. Although I didn’t actaully get on her back till last week. She learned to stand tied and not make a fuss with hardly any effort on my part. All that to say is that I would take another hardly touched five year old mare or gelding.

This mare is quite a bit older though and I would definitely consider her work ethic as mentioned. She will probably be very stubborn and pushy (my mare is and she is only 5 and wasn’t the lead mare in her previous herd) so watch out for that. That is really my biggest problem with my mare. She has a great work ethic but man can she be stubborn.

I have mares rhar were started as 3 tear olds and then nothing else was done. 1st mare had 2 babies and was brought to riding as a 7 tear old. She is a fabtastic trail horse, very willing with lots of try. I can cut traiks with her. She goesn;t mind tree limbs beinf dragged ubder her or landing on her back. This mare is on the hot side on the ground, but solid under saddle. The next mare had 3 weeks under saddle and went lame. She was lame for a long time, so she wasn’t ridden again for over 3 years. A trainer walked her around the ring for 2 short rides and then I got on her and haven’t looked back. Last tear, her first trip off the farm was to a judged trail ride. This year I have not ridden in 7 months and got on her. It was like I hadn’t missed a day. By the way, I was 64 when I got on 1st mare and 68 on the second one.

I guess I will be the dissident voice here.

Growing up in Europe, we started horses at four generally.
I only remember one filly I started as a long three year old under saddle and another on the wagon with an older draft horse.

We started all kinds of horses, some feral horses that were anywhere from 4 to 8-9 years old, best we could guess by their teeth.
We also had horses to start from South America, about 4-5 years old those.
All horses made fine horses for school, endurance and jumpers.
Dressage is how we started all horses and the few really talented for that went on to be trained and shown in the higher levels.

Then I came to the West and here most horses, race and cowhorses, were started as early twos and the difference was enormous, so much easier to talk a two year old to go along with whatever you wanted.
I love working with the real young ones, from the time they are born and on along until riding them as twos, so much easier than having to first teach a four year old, more mature and reactive horse to trust you.

Many of the horses we started as twos, for race and ranch horses, we followed thru all their lives and I can say they stayed as sound and healthy and happy working all their lives as those started later did, plus they never had to go thru the stress of their lives at four, that is fairly mentally mature and set in their ways for a horse, changing so drastically and needing to adapt then to work for people.

Talking about work ethic.
While that is to some extent depending on the horse’s character, I think that teaching a two year old to work with you and spending those two years doing so, to starting a horse as a four year old, well, a two year old is learning mentally to adapt for his coming life long task much easier than they do if you wait until four to start.
That is not even considering his physical adaptation by growing already fit for the job life will demand of him.

A parallel could be made with keeping kids at home until ten and then sending them to school to learn to live with others and learn to read and write.
No, we start them right along in the human world they will have to be part of and keep that up all thru their childhood years.

Why not do that with horses, why lose those two years?
Given the choice of two identical horses, one raised carefully and started as a two and one raised carefully but left alone until four to then start, well, I would say the two year old will fit better in the human world.

Texas A+M did some such studies now maybe 12-15 years ago and they also found that those started as two, compared with those at three, the ones at two were easier to handle and train and less stressed than the ones started at three, although the differences were eventually erased by the time they were mature at 6.

We know that, if you want physical fitness for most that demands that, you have to start very young and train and condition for those years, if you want to be at your best, in horses and humans.

Now, of course you have to take maturity, physical and mental, into consideration and work with what you have, at any age you want to start a horse before it is a mature individual about 6-7 years old.
That doesn’t mean we have to just not touch them until they are mature, any more than we would not teach or train kids, but have them wait until they are in their 20’s.

The critics of early start point at when training is not done properly, ignoring that bad training is harmful at any age.
Plenty of horses started later, if not done correctly, also don’t turn out well.

As for the 8 year old mare, that ideally we should start horses early doesn’t mean that the ones that were not should not be considered.
Some of the feral horses we started were close to 10 years old and learned just fine, just like the younger ones and were in a few weeks very nicely trained horses.

If you like who she is today, why not give her a try?
Now, if what you want is a horse for a task that requires an already trained horse, or a competition horse?
Then get something closer to what you want to have or need, no sense in trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[QUOTE=Bluey;7520458]
I guess I will be the dissident voice here.

Growing up in Europe, we started horses at four generally.
I only remember one filly I started as a long three year old under saddle and another on the wagon with an older draft horse.

We started all kinds of horses, some feral horses that were anywhere from 4 to 8-9 years old, best we could guess by their teeth.
We also had horses to start from South America, about 4-5 years old those.
All horses made fine horses for school, endurance and jumpers.
Dressage is how we started all horses and the few really talented for that went on to be trained and shown in the higher levels.

Then I came to the West and here most horses, race and cowhorses, were started as early twos and the difference was enormous, so much easier to talk a two year old to go along with whatever you wanted.
I love working with the real young ones, from the time they are born and on along until riding them as twos, so much easier than having to first teach a four year old, more mature and reactive horse to trust you.

Many of the horses we started as twos, for race and ranch horses, we followed thru all their lives and I can say they stayed as sound and healthy and happy working all their lives as those started later did, plus they never had to go thru the stress of their lives at four, that is fairly mentally mature and set in their ways for a horse, changing so drastically and needing to adapt then to work for people.

Talking about work ethic.
While that is to some extent depending on the horse’s character, I think that teaching a two year old to work with you and spending those two years doing so, to starting a horse as a four year old, well, a two year old is learning mentally to adapt for his coming life long task much easier than they do if you wait until four to start.
That is not even considering his physical adaptation by growing already fit for the job life will demand of him.

A parallel could be made with keeping kids at home until ten and then sending them to school to learn to live with others and learn to read and write.
No, we start them right along in the human world they will have to be part of and keep that up all thru their childhood years.

Why not do that with horses, why lose those two years?
Given the choice of two identical horses, one raised carefully and started as a two and one raised carefully but left alone until four to then start, well, I would say the two year old will fit better in the human world.

Texas A+M did some such studies now maybe 12-15 years ago and they also found that those started as two, compared with those at three, the ones at two were easier to handle and train and less stressed than the ones started at three, although the differences were eventually erased by the time they were mature at 6.

We know that, if you want physical fitness for most that demands that, you have to start very young and train and condition for those years, if you want to be at your best, in horses and humans.

Now, of course you have to take maturity, physical and mental, into consideration and work with what you have, at any age you want to start a horse before it is a mature individual about 6-7 years old.
That doesn’t mean we have to just not touch them until they are mature, any more than we would not teach or train kids, but have them wait until they are in their 20’s.

The critics of early start point at when training is not done properly, ignoring that bad training is harmful at any age.
Plenty of horses started later, if not done correctly, also don’t turn out well.

As for the 8 year old mare, that ideally we should start horses early doesn’t mean that the ones that were not should not be considered.
Some of the feral horses we started were close to 10 years old and learned just fine, just like the younger ones and were in a few weeks very nicely trained horses.

If you like who she is today, why not give her a try?
Now, if what you want is a horse for a task that requires an already trained horse, or a competition horse?
Then get something closer to what you want to have or need, no sense in trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.[/QUOTE]

Well, that was a rambling dissertation.
The truth is, modern training techniques are designed for the immature horse. If horses were started at four or older, it would diminish greatly the number of so called professionals starting horses. A trainer would have to be more of a horseman.

I don’t think she is old!!! I was expecting to see an age of 15 or better. :slight_smile: Sounds to me like she is the perfect age to get into hard work, as another poster mentioned she can be ridden and mentally challenged much more than a 3 yo.

[QUOTE=Wirt;7520611]
Well, that was a rambling dissertation.
The truth is, modern training techniques are designed for the immature horse. If horses were started at four or older, it would diminish greatly the number of so called professionals starting horses. A trainer would have to be more of a horseman.[/QUOTE]

Just think about the horses, learning when very young and so much easier on them, less stress, than two years later in life, now older and more mature, their world now has changed drastically and they have the added stress to learn a whole new world system they have to fit in.

Making it easier for the horse ought to count some.

We tell ourselves it is easier on the horse. It is easier on the people. The skills needed to start older horses, and be easy on them, are not taught in general. Horse expos, horse TV, clinicians, books today all center around backyard do it yourself horse handling to get horses in a permanent state of submission. Then any dummy can handle them.

This thread caught my eye. I don’t usually hang out in the western forum, but saw the thread title and wanted to say, it can be done, it can be easier and less frustrating than working with a baby, and it can almost be more rewarding than working with a baby because you are working with something that’s had years to do what they wanted when they wanted to do it and you’re going to need patience to bring them around to your idea of things.

I’ve done it twice now, most recently with my soon to be 8yo mare. I backed her about 11 months ago and she is a delight. Tricky - see above - has her own ideas about the world, but rewarding. A couple of the best things about working with an older horse are that they are balanced and know their own body (can also be a detriment if you give them an opportunity to use that against you) and that they are finished growing so you’re never interrupted by a growth spurt.

If you like the idea of getting to know each other, instead of just slapping some training on a youngster so that they fit the mold, do it.

In terms of work ethic, they’ve either got it or they don’t imo. If you have reservations in that regard - iow, that this particular mare might be easily soured by a bit of work, or is a lazy slug, then look for another prospect. That part of a horse, I think, is harder to change the older they are.

I’ve worked with four older–left to sit–mares over the last few years (I owned two and put a few rides on the other two). I think the end result of all four was ultimately determined by the quality of their early handling. The well-started ones were easy to restart. The poorly-started ones were a lot more work and tended to be more resistant.

This thread title caught my eye. You folks are giving me hope! Due to finances and time, some of my young horses are getting a little old to be started. I am on a mission right now to take care of that. Where do all you folks live who like to start older horses LOL? Want a training project? Just kidding, sigh. But I really do hope that my herd will respond well.

The first one I sent out for training four months ago turned five in February. She has given the trainer a little bit of trouble. The trainer actually said she had been “left too long”. But maybe it’s a poor fit.