Good point about the dressage judge, but they could have the same judge for all the subsections of each level. For example, May Daze has 3 sections of Senior Novice this weekend and two of Open Novice. Same judge for all the senior novice riders.
I get that at the end of the day you are really only competing against your own scores but as expensive as eventing is getting, having something to show for it at the end of the day is kind of nice too.
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Iām with @halla here. I can understand the argument youāre making and obviously everyone views things differently, but personally the system youāre describing just feels infantilizing to me. Either leave the divisions whole or split them up beforehand so you can track your status against the smaller group throughout the day. Gerrymandering the divisions after the fact just seems unnecessary. Youād still be tracking scores for the entire group up until the end, so youād know the whole time that your second place ribbon was actually for the fifth place score in the group. In my mind that would be a fifth place finish no matter what color ribbon they handed me.
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In Canada we only have three splits for divisions. Open and Sr/Jr.
If youāve ridden the level above what youāre showing in, in the last two years, you ride open.
Thatās it lol
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This is a problem in the U.S. There are people in rider divisions who absolutely belong in open because they have competed (some routinely) at a higher level. Come on, now!
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Sometimes from an organizerās standpoint, you canāt have all novice riders judged by the same judge. A very busy show, with 600 entries, has 5 dressage rings going at once, so multiple novice rider divisions will be running simultaneously. ALL the riders at each level need to be completed with dressage by a certain time, so that everyone gets to show jump on schedule. Combine that with riders who have multiple horses (and NOT just pros!), and the Secretary has to spread them out accordingly. In my experience, events do their best to provide a good competition for all, but it will never be a truly level playing field. As someone who lives & competes in FL against olympic pros every time out, yeah I would love to bring home a few more ribbons! But if you do this sport long enough you learn to appreciate your effort and judge your performance against yourself, regardless of final placings.
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Thereās no way to run the whole level in one ring at many one day events for sure.
As it stands the (US) rules to compete in the rider divisions are pretty liberal, but IME no matter where you draw that line many people will be unhappy. Other than switching to the Danish system like many schooling dressage shows do, there isnāt really a solution that works well for all events (and of course some people hate that too lol).
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@Janet will know the specifics, but there is a rule about thisā¦I bumped down to Modified after a rough start to my winter season and thought I could be in the Rider division, but got an email from USEA telling me Iām not eligible since Iāve done a CCI2L.
You canāt have competed more than one level above in the last 5 years, and they count a 2* as a level above Prelim. So if you had competed Prelim but not done the 2* you could have done Modified Rider.
Iām pretty sure for example that Bruce Davidson Sr is currently eligible to be in Prelim Rider (not that he has, Iāve only seen him in Open and Horse sections.) So I do feel like this rule could be tighter. Iāve competed through Prelim but have only done unrecognized events in the last 8 years but I wouldnāt enter BN Rider even though Iām eligible because I would feel guilty.
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USEF Eventing rules Appendix 3 1.4 and 1.5
1.4 For the purposes of this rule, in differentiating eligibility for Horse and Rider sections, FEI divisions are considered to be one level higher than the equivalent National division, e.g. FEI Two Star is one level higher than a Preliminary Horse Trial. A rider who has completed an event at the Advanced Level is not eligible to compete as an Intermediate rider.
1.5 RIDER Ā® - Open to competitors who have not completed an event above the next highest level in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition, e.g. a Novice Rider may have completed an event at Training level, but not Modified or Preliminary level or higher in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition; a Training Rider may have completed an event at Modified or Preliminary level, but not Intermediate level or higher in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition.
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Last year I had a previous Olympian constantly in my Sr Novice Rider division, taking 1st every time, on the same horseā¦ move up already or go in Open! Listed as a pro tooā¦ what were the organizers thinking?
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In at least one instance in the local haphazard divisions (some time ago), a pro on a recently-imported young warmblood wanted to give her owner a year-end championship for their new horse. Guess how she did that. She didnāt normally seek divisions that were mostly AAs/juniors. But, knowing the usual scores, she realized that she could step into a division-level that is primarily AAās and juniors, nail the dressage and cruise through the jumping, and take the year-end high points for the entire level.
The horse belonged in a āhorseā division ā no worries with that. But that division wasnāt offered as an option.
The riders who worked toward that goal for the year on their very different quality horses could not do anything about it. It was an awkward moment at the year-end awards dinner when they got to that particular award, not much clapping and a lot of staring, but the smiling pro & horse owner didnāt care.
Scores are fine. But it isnāt necessary to go to the trouble and expense of a horse trial just to get a dressage score from a recognized judge.
And no, this areaās levels arenāt overwhelmed with hundreds of entries per horse trial that governs the dressage schedule, by any means.
I know who that person is, and AGREED that individual should have been in Open. Yes, it was within their rights to go in rider, but come onā¦.I feel if youāve been to the Olympics you shouldnāt be eligible for rider, ever. Lol.
I was actually just talking to my trainer this weekend about how even though she was eligible to be in training rider (bc she hasnātā done prelim in 5 years), she still went in Open. I told her I was really happy she made that choice. It irks me when professionals go into the rider divisions just because they can. And I mean professionals running a training program where they have eventing (or dressage or jumper) clients they coach and horses they ride, NOT professionals who are teaching pony kid camp.
It would be nice if the entire level could be under one dressage judge, but I can see how in the large shows that would absolutely not be achievable. Iāve said this before and Iāll continue to harp about it until something changes (so Iāll likely be whining about this forever), but I feel the discrepancy in judging REALLY needs to be addressed. Some judges are notorious low scorers and it drives me batty. It makes it difficult to see how you compare across all riders in a level because the dressage can be so biased.
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Itās actually harder to schedule at a smaller event. If you have 30 Novice rides and you put them all in the same ring and schedule them for every six minutes, thatās 3 hours of dressage (plus probably a 10-15 minute break) and that means that if you give the last rider of the division an hour between dressage and showjumping, it takes 4+ hours just to get through Novice dressage and sj and early people have to wait a very long time between rides (Figure 8 am dressage start and 11:15 jump start). If you have two or three rings, the dressage is over in 60-90 minutes, and you can alternate divisions for the jumping so there arenāt gaps. (Figure 8 am dressage start and 9:45 jump start.)
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Feh. Just looked up the top 4 in the Sr T Rider division this weekend and the top 3 were ALL pros. I feel that they should be in Open, and the rules should be changed.
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You lot should come to UK - no divisions for riders at 100cm + as BE will not define what amateur is mainly because of the hassle and moaning. So we compete against everyone and the only stipulation is the horse cannot have any points at Novice (Prelim). Itās slightly tighter at 80 and 90cm where riders cannot have been 4*.
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It is the horse that goes up through the levels not the rider (and, oh, that endless discussion about how āunfairā MERs are). School child against Olympian is part of the charm and a USP for Eventing.
We sat at a fence very close to the warm-up ring for a BE90 section, watching a young horse broncho around, being a total prat. As it snorted, pranced, bucked, napped and neighed itās way past us, I congratulated Tim Price on whichever world-beating championship performance he had put in just a few days before. āThis is where I really earn my livingā was his response, with a big grin, sitting another buck. (I would like to say the horse also farted at this moment but that would just be an artistic embellishment of the story).
This past Saturday a child on a 13.2 pony won a section that included pro riders. Stonking good pony and excellent rider who turned in a sub-20 dressage and went clear jumping.
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Thereās already an option to offer an amateur division-- you could email the event organizer/secretary and ask if they would consider offering it next year. Itās possible that the numbers donāt support it though.
I guess I donāt really understand why the amateur/pro distinction is such a big deal though. It kind of seems like punishing people who canāt afford to be amateurs. I actually really like that the rider division attempts to divide you by experience.
Punishing people who canāt afford to be amateurs? How about making sure people who get paid to ride are where they belong? We have the amateur rule for a reason. Does it include people as pros who are teaching up down lessons and schooling rank ponies? Is it sometimes āunfairā for those people to compete against better pros? Yes! Because that is the only way to make sure people donāt cheat. Blame the cheaters before you blame the amateurs who just want a fair division.
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There was an amateur division! And these people (or the organizers) still chose to put a bunch of pros in Rider Vs Open
The breakdown at T was:
Jr Training Rider: 21 competitors
Sr Training Rider: 22
Training Amateur: 21
Open Training: 14 <- plenty of room for the pros here!
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You still get amateur placings for finishes in open and rider divisions. In fact, among those I know, many amateurs will try and enter an open division because for things like area champs and AEC qualifications pros are removed from the placings for qualification purposes. So, for example, if you place 8th in an open division but 6 ahead of you are pros then suddenly you are second ammy and have earned your AEC qualification. Whereas if you are 8th in a rider division but only 4 ahead of you are pros then you are 4th and do not earn the qualification.
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