Please help me find a saddle for my impossible to fit WB

[ElementFarm]

I’ve worked with several fitters, both brand-name (reps for French, Ger, UK, US -saddles) and unaffiliated/independent. Everything slides forward. While I’m a hunter princess through and through, I am open to dressage, western, treeless, whatever it takes to let me actually ride this horse.

Mare in question is built like a conical wedge. Physics are the problem.
She has a short somewhat curvy back, and is built quite downhill, average withers, not a big shoulder, narrow chest, forward girth groove, and well sprung ribs with a lot of belly.
Also, this princess gets EXTREMELY offended if she thinks her saddle is getting anywhere near her shoulder/traps, even a little bit, and will shut down. Usually this starts as tossing head and not wanting to canter, then she resists trotting and gets humpy, and will escalate to refusal to move forward at all. Usually this unhappy behavior causes the saddle to slide even more forward. And even just asking her to trot around the ring once results in a slipped-forward saddle and very angry mare.

I’ve done back, neck, and feet rads. BUT, I can get on her bareback, and within a few asks, she will drop her head, stretch down, and trot happily around the ring on a loose rein while I cling to mane for dear life. I am too old for this and not nearly brave enough to ask for canter. But the fact that it’s my same bodyweight on her back with no other variables, really makes me think it’s 99% saddle related (though admittedly, her work ethic isn’t the best).

I think a lot of the problem is the girth pulls the saddle forward. I’ve tried long and short girths, anatomic girths (multiple brands/styles), neoprene, equalizer, non-slip pads, even a crupper. When the saddle (Xwide and/or hoopy fits her best) is in the ‘right’ place on her back, the billets line up with about 12 inches(!!) behind her elbow. An anatomic girth gaps badly in the front, and because she’s significantly wider around the barrel there, and very narrow behind her elbow, the path of least resistance pulls every girth forward which drags the saddle with it.

I’ve looked around online at things like the EQ saddle, some of the hoop/baroque saddles that Bliss sells, and even several treeless saddles. It’s hard for me to navigate the marketing, as I have zero experience with treeless or alternative -type saddles. I’m willing to spend $ to get something that is perfect, but I can’t spend a ton on trials and restocking fees for something that ‘might’ sort of work. Over the years, I’ve think I’ve tried about 100 different demos for this horse.

Has anyone had any magic saddle they found for a similar problem horse? I love this mare, and she loves to have a job, but she’s gotten almost no riding for a year now because I simply can’t find anything she likes.
Please help!! Thank you!

[WavyRider]

Not a saddle fitter, but I’ve been taking classes because of my own horse’s saddle challenges. He is very downhill with giant shoulders and the saddle slides… backwards. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

@ElementFarm

Also, this princess gets EXTREMELY offended if she thinks her saddle is getting anywhere near her shoulder/traps, even a little bit, and will shut down. Usually this starts as tossing head and not wanting to canter, then she resists trotting and gets humpy, and will escalate to refusal to move forward at all.

Is the entire saddle the problem, or just the tree? Mine has a hissy fit if the tree is too far forward but tolerates the knee roll up there.

When you do find the right fit, it may take some time for her to trust the saddle. Sensitive horses like this can hang onto that phantom pain for a while.

@ElementFarm

I’ve looked around online at things like the EQ saddle, some of the hoop/baroque saddles that Bliss sells, and even several treeless saddles

If she does have large shoulders, the baroque saddles may be a good avenue. Schleese also has some options for horses like this. I can’t recommend a fitter for you but I know there are some out there.

From my personal experience, some horse and rider combinations will always struggle with keeping the saddle in position even when it’s perfectly fit to the horse. If you find something that you KNOW fits and she is happy with it when it stays in place, you could try either a nonslip pad like the ones from Professional’s Choice under your regular saddle pad or a nonslip saddle pad like EcoGold.

I’d love to see some pictures of your mare’s conformation if you’re willing to share.

[ElementFarm]

Thanks for your response!

I think at this point she resents the whole saddle. But she is still clear when she hates one more than another. She does hold a bit of a grudge, but it’s not just ‘all angry’, which is why when I keep asking her to trot bareback, she gets progressively better but when I use a saddle, it gets worse and worse.

She does not have a big shoulder at all. She’s literally narrow in front and gets progressively wider, in all dimensions, the farther back you go. There’s just nothing in front to stop the saddle.
I own a wide schleese that I’ve tried on her, but haven’t looked at any other models or sizes.

I already use a no-slip pad (several kinds to include neoprene, gel, ecogold, etc). I really think the compounding issue is the girth pulling the saddle forward, and no non-slip pad is strong enough to combat that force.

I’ll try to take photos this weekend and share. Thanks again for your response.

[WavyRider]

Argh I’m sorry I missed the non-slip pad in your original post! I tried to make sure I read it carefully.

[joiedevie99]

Have you tried a Fore Girth? They were literally made for witherless Cobs. It’s a bit more drastic than just getting a saddle with a point billet, but might make sense here.

https://www.ooteman.nl/on-the-horse/saddle-accessories/saddleaccessories/vantaggio-foregirth-black

[tulachard]

My mule is built like this, so I feel your pain - even well fitted saddles still slip forward on her. I use a crupper with her dressage saddle (Frank Baines Elegance) and britchen with her western saddle. She does not like her saddles sliding forward either and is much happier using the crupper or britchen. My saddle fitter agrees that there is no saddle in the world that won’t slide forward on her.

Girth types are important - Ovation Gel body form girth for the dressage saddle. For her western saddle, she goes in a Lettia fleece western girth with elastic, along with a center fire rigged saddle to keep everything off her shoulders.

Good luck!!

[WavyRider]

@tulachard

along with a center fire rigged saddle to keep everything off her shoulders.

Curious, what is a center fire rigged saddle?

[tulachard]

It creates a “v” between the front and rear rigging. So your tie point is further away from their girth groove. It also seems to balance the tension between the rigging points. Not my saddle, but just a quick google search:

[GreyDes]

I used an Ansur treeless for a few years on my senior Arab. He was always very wide with almost no withers and developed a sway back as he got older that made saddle fitting tough.

I liked the saddle for basic riding and it was super comfortable for trail riding. I did have some issues with lateral stability, especially if I was asking for a lot of turning or bending.

I’ve seen them at Fine Line/High Line tack occasionally and they have a good trial policy.

I’ve also used a Freeform treeless for trail riding and it’s quite comfortable and maybe a bit more secure than the Ansur. Actually - that one is sitting in my tack room and you are welcome to borrow it for the cost of shipping if you think it might be worth a try.

Alternatively, what about a really nice bareback pad like Skito, Christ, or the Mattes “fur saddle”? I have the Skito and it’s padded and grippy. I believe the Mattes had some structure and allows you to use stirrups.

And you’ve probably already gone through this with your fitter, but will a point billet help?

[MadTrotter]

How’s her fitness? I had one similar to this and the only way I can remotely keep a saddle that works for him is to keep every ounce of extra fat off of him and make sure his top line stays firm.

[luvmyhackney]

Have you tried a ghost saddle? They are treeless but really nice and conform to the back better than most treeless saddles I’m familiar with.

Really comfortable but you either love them or hate riding in them.

[Lost_Shoe]

For impossible to fit horses, especially ones that do not like shoulder pressure, try EQ saddle science.

[Bristol_Bay]

@ElementFarm

am too old for this and not nearly brave enough to ask for canter.

Canter will be way easier to balance on than trot.

[twostinkydogs]

My mare is the same body shape but with huge shoulders, I am shopping for her 7th or 8th saddle in as many years so I feel your pain. I picked up a Stubben Equi-Soft girth at a consignment shop a few weeks ago and it is majikal. She is way more forward and she seems happier when we school. It’s been a long time since a piece of equipment made such a starkly noticeable difference.

[CanteringCarrot]

Mine also likes the Stubben Equi-Soft. He’s no longer girthy at all, and it’s quite stable, yet flexible.

Mine had issues with saddles sliding forward, losing weight did help him. He’s young, so growing and developing has helped too. He used to look like an egg with legs.

[IPEsq]

Crescent or moon girths are made for this problem. But it can also be a sign of the saddle being too narrow.

[Pico_Banana]

I feel your frustration! What works for some, others hate, etc.

FWIW, I have my two riding horses in EQs. They are very different shapes. My mare (Oldenburg) is short backed, has well sprung ribs, narrow chest, and very forward girth groove, like your horse. Unlike your horse, she’s not downhill, has HUGE shoulders, and a normal back. She goes in the EQ Encore (which I also love) and a VenTech shaped girth.

My gelding (Dutch WB) is somewhat long backed, narrow withers, somewhat narrow build. His withers are the biggest challenge. He’s older and I can’t get his topline to fill in as much as I’d like. He goes in the EQ Tribute with a wool backed pad to fill him out a bit more. And the Equi Soft girth (which does not work AT ALL for my mare). For me, I don’t like the Tribute as much as I like the Encore, but his vote counts more than mine. He was a tricky case even for EQ, but they really got it right the first try. We ultimately tried three different saddles on him, but that was to accommodate trying to find a saddle that I liked better for me. Our third saddle was the best - same general tree as the first but with a wider twist for me.

I would highly recommend trying them. They have a great trial period and with everything you’ve tried already, it sounds like it’s time to try something different.

[anonevent]

When my horse was young, he was what the fitters call “heron” shaped, which might be similar to your horse’s shape. Even if the tree was technically correct, lots of rotation and slipping could happen. A few saddle makers have styles where the girth straps are almost like an overgirth, that was very helpful. The Black Country Vinici range has this type of style. I think Devocoux has some as well.

[atlatl]

Apologies if I missed someone already mentioning this, but if she’s built downhill, you could try padding under the front part of her saddle to make it a little more level even if she’s not. Of course you don’t want gaps along the bars so you may need to made it graduated.

[LilRanger]

Most English sales are center fire. I have a weaver western saddle that’s center fire rigging. It for sure doesn’t slip forward.

But i agree maybe a crupper or britching is in your future. If beastly are needed, I dint see why a crupper mightn’t be