please help me with bits

[bbird930]

So, I am just so confused by western bits!

I recently started team roping training (head side) on my horse and hes progressing very nicely. I did have him in a correction bit to fix a couple of issues that are now resolved but I now have him in this: http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/reinsman-circle-r-performance-bit-cr752

When I ride my horse without cows (english or western) he goes around just fine in a snaffle (including jumping, trail riding, just flat work, etc). However, around cows he turns into a freight train and tries to kill them. He even does this with the roping dummy. If he can’t bite them he tries to turn his haunches into them so he can kick it. This is where I’m having issues. He is violently throwing his body around trying to kill the cow and I feel like I have no control when he does this. Especially with a rope in my hand trying to swing, keep him straight and keep him moving forward.

The correction bit seemed to exacerbate these issues, and the bit I’m using now doesn’t exactly stop them but it doesn’t make them worse. I need something that will make him keep his head in the right spot and stop thinking about killing the cow so much. He really doesn’t care about the rope accidentally hitting him in the face when I throw it because he is so determined to bite the cow.

Disclaimer: I realize this will all get better with training and that bitting up is not the best solution; however the horse is currently throwing me around and I have little control when I need it most. We ride in a double jointed KK snaffle whenever we aren’t dealing with cows and he is perfect. I can get him to move where ever I want without any fuss. I just need more control when the cows come out.

[beau159]

I guess I am confused. Why are you trying to rope cows already when he doesn’t know how to track one?

You have to teach your horse how to properly work and track a cow, before you can expect them to place you in the proper position to rope one.

I’d start there. Just work him on the cows for a few weeks. Teach him where he should space himself. Then you’ve got both hands to correct him if needed, and you aren’t worrying yourself with throwing a rope.

I don’t mind if a horse bites at a cow, because I like seeing that “cowy” side of a horse. But if they are moving without my saying so, or not listening to my aids, then you need to take a step back in training and regain control.

[bbird930]

He will track just fine as long as I am not swinging a rope. I have spent the last 2 months just tracking (both the dummy and real steers). The minute I swing a rope he gets super aggressive to the cows and becomes very difficult for me to do anything with (I am also learning). My trainer currently has a broken back and can’t do very much.

I probably need to get a cowboy who knows how to rope already on him to fix this, just trying to find something to make communicating with him easier. I don’t want to use harsh bits or giant spurs if I don’t have to. It was hard for me to switch to a curb from my snaffle.

ETA: he more than “bites at” cows… he grabs their tails and tries to pick them up and shake them.

[KIloBright]

Yes, you need to have someone ride him that can really correct him when he gets aggressive towards cattle-a major fault and dis qualification
You don’t need a 'bigger bit, but the ability to correct him with your legs, not just hands, going to the spur if needed

[Bluey]

You really need a different horse to learn to rope or work cattle.

Some horses don’t really have cow, they just want to abuse cattle.

A horse that has natural cow will stand back and remain in a position of power to the cattle.

Now some horses with cow get frustrated at times with a cow that is not cooperating and will try to reinforce with biting, Poco Bueno lost some classes for biting a cow, which is a disqualification.

Your horse sound like those that fail cow work.

Do you have someone that really knows what he is doing helping you?

See if you can find some older, slower but very steady heading horse to learn with, don’t try to use that poorly trained one.

I don’t think a change of bits will help you.

[bbird930]

My roping trainer has won multiple events, however she has a broken back and can’t do much at the moment. I’ve roped the dummy at a walk, trot and lope with her horse and do well, but he is 100% trained and I think I could rope without a bridle on and be fine with him. My big issue (and I’m sure its glaringly obvious) is that I just started this when my english saddle stopped fitting the horse because his shoulders are too big. Currently in touch with Alliance Saddlery (made for stock horses) so hopefully I can get back to doing what I know in addition to roping.

I’ve been wondering that too, bluey. He is so aggressive towards them that it scares me. When we push the steers down the chute to get them back to the gate area he tries to rear up and smash them with the front feet in addition to biting and kicking. Trainer said she had a horse like this and he made a great roping horse, she just had to stay on top of him more.

My horse is also quick to catch on to things so once he thinks he “figured it out” he argues if I change it up. I’ll go look for a cowboy to ride him and to give me an opinion. The problem I’m having with that is that they’re all tied up on feedlots/ bringing in cattle for the fall.

ETA: I’m not sure my horse is “poorly trained” as much as “not trained at all”… literally just started this 2 months ago.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=bbird930;7805022]
My roping trainer has won multiple events, however she has a broken back and can’t do much at the moment. I’ve roped the dummy at a walk, trot and lope with her horse and do well, but he is 100% trained and I think I could rope without a bridle on and be fine with him. My big issue (and I’m sure its glaringly obvious) is that I just started this when my english saddle stopped fitting the horse because his shoulders are too big. Currently in touch with Alliance Saddlery (made for stock horses) so hopefully I can get back to doing what I know in addition to roping.

I’ve been wondering that too, bluey. He is so aggressive towards them that it scares me. When we push the steers down the chute to get them back to the gate area he tries to rear up and smash them with the front feet in addition to biting and kicking. Trainer said she had a horse like this and he made a great roping horse, she just had to stay on top of him more.

My horse is also quick to catch on to things so once he thinks he “figured it out” he argues if I change it up. I’ll go look for a cowboy to ride him and to give me an opinion. The problem I’m having with that is that they’re all tied up on feedlots/ bringing in cattle for the fall.

ETA: I’m not sure my horse is “poorly trained” as much as “not trained at all”… literally just started this 2 months ago.[/QUOTE]

You may be right, he is not trained and has some dangerous discipline problems, not the best kind to try to learn to rope with.

We always put the cattle first, they are not horse or human toys, they are there for a purpose, but a serious one.
Their comfort, within that they will be roped, is very important, so they are contented and also cooperate, not get sour and quit working for roping.

Around here, horses that abuse cattle by being aggressive or stopping so hard they jerk cattle are called “dirty”.
If the rider can’t change that asap, they are told not to come back, it is not acceptable.

Roping is not gentle, but it should never be abusive and the difference is easy to see.
If your horse is as you describe, you really should not put him where he can do what he does.

That your trainer trained one out of doing that still won’t help you, you are not your trainer.
As a beginner roper, you need to work with a horse that will give you the same trip every time, until you get good at taking the shot the good horse gives you every time.
Just as you would not want to go jump a course with a horse that has been pulling a wagon all his life, you should not try to learn to rope with a horse that doesn’t know what it is doing.

You sound like you have lots of common sense, but are put in a bad situation, that is why you came ask here.

No one really knows what is going on, just what we imagine from what you are saying.
We may be wrong, but at least you have more to go by now to see where to go from here.

[katarine]

I agree with Bluey, sounds like the wrong horse for the job

[La_Gringa]

I would put the horse if you are really wanting to work it out with him, with a cowhorse trainer… that rides with cattle daily. The only way a horse like that is going to get over it is to be surrounded by cattle… sorting ranch work, with other horses around to realize it’s a job not something to attack and kill.

That’s what I can suggest, working cattle myself. I have seen aggressive ones want to bite the cattle but not rear up etc. Maybe the horse had a bad experience early in life… and he’s scared of them.

Not sure though why he does it when swinging the rope. … again I think you need professional help

[riderank_makebank]

Yeahhhh I agree with La Gringa and Bluey… I’ve been roping my whole life (breakaway, team and ranch, in Alberta, BC and the States) and I’ve seen far too many wrecks with beginners and anxious or flustered horses. All I have to say is either use a Heel-O-Matic/Buford/Sparky untill you figure out the problem to a T or get a different horse if you’re serious about roping. Sometimes live stock just blows their minds, like how some people run and run and run barrel horses then their minds are gone. My calf roping horse is a good aggressive - tracks hard and puts me in the exact right spot but never would “attack” stock. There’s a difference between a good aggressive and a mean/dangerous aggressive. In sports like penning and sorting you can get DQ’d if your horse latches onto a steer. It’s nothing a bit can fix, and that bit is perfectly fine to use. It’s really hard to say without seeing for myself, a video would be huge help. Too bad you weren’t near by, you could send him to me haha

[beau159]

Something just doesn’t quite add up. Granted, it would be a lot easier if we could see you work him in person.

I’m not understanding how he is perfect when you are not swinging a rope, but a monster to cows when you are. There has to be more than one difference than just the rope.

Are you tensing up when you’ve got a rope in your hands?
Are you not using your legs anymore?
Are you getting harder with your hands without realizing it (or too soft, for that matter)?

What happens if you just score him on the box but don’t actually rope? Is the excitement of taking off from the box that it making him nutty?

I just don’t see how you holding a rope in your hands is the ONLY thing that is setting him off on the cows. There has to be something else going on.

Since your current trainer is laid up, can she recommend anyone else to help you?

[bbird930]

I can track cows without the rope just fine. He is a little bit aggressive but not in a bad way, more like “lets go get them” instead of “lets go kill and eat them.” We can track the roping dummy (smarty, pulled by a 4 wheeler) and aside from him being too smart and reading the sounds of the engine instead of my cues sometimes, hes very good.

When I start trying to rope the dummy (not sure about steers yet as we have not roped anything live), he gets super excited and will bite the roping dummy, swing his haunches around and try to kick it, and when I don’t let him you can tell hes mad.

Trainer and I have found that if we keep him in a slow lope when I am actually roping the dummy (as opposed to just tracking) and don’t make long stops (to chat about my form or to fix my rope or something) he stays much calmer and doesn’t get too aggressive.

He scores great and we work on that a lot. The first half a second he has to be reminded that he can’t just run out but then just puts his head down and waits for my cue to walk out. The only video I have is one of him being pretty good while we are getting him used to having a steer on the other end of the rope (in a controlled round pen situation at a walk) he reaches over and opens his mouth without biting on the steer a couple times (not hard, more like "get out of my way, move, do something), but the steer is really wise to that whole situation and just likes to stand and be lazy. Out of the box that steer is ridiculously fast. Well trained I guess.

I would love to find someone to send him to for about a month. However, I don’t want to send him somewhere that I can’t visit at least a few times a week (and I’d be slightly uncomfortable with that even… currently I’m out twice a day in a self care situation). If anyone knows of any trainers in the Manhattan Ks area (or within 1 hour of it), let me know. I feel like I’m in over my head. I feel like if I mess up or drop the rope I’m in for a major accident that I definitely don’t want. I keep repeating “green and green is black and blue” over and over in my head. Trainer doesn’t seem to think there’s much of an issue but I’m not sure.

I’d actually rather be doing team penning but apparently that’s just not done around these parts. I’ve asked everyone I know and they all look at me like I’m nuts.

Thanks for all of the replies so far. The multiple opinions are helping.

[riderank_makebank]

Hmm I really don’t know. Try to get a video next time you’re practicing Are you comfortable and have a good arm when it comes to swinging a rope? I noticed in lots of clinics learning riders have no problem scoring, tracking, etc without a rope but once they get swinging they can’t seem to get coordinated/get nervous/not as controlled/aren’t quite at that level to be roping off a horse flat out yet. I’ve been there, it takes time and tons of practice. This is why I love teaching beginner and all-girls clinics

Also, maybe you get really anxious and don’t even realize it. I know I can get like that. No rope “ok la dee da…track this steer…done this a million times” with a rope “OK LETS STICK ONE ON EM AND STRETCH IT OUT!” anticipating that tug on the end of your dally - its a rush and big sense of accomplishment! Your energy level goes through the roof, horse feeds off energy, horse gets excited. I honestly like breakaway sooo much more, no pressure on you (feeling you NEED to catch for your heeler), way easier on your horse and it will last longer (I refuse to head with my horses, though I can no problem, I just don’t want a cripple…), it’s good practice too.

A girl I used to high school rodeo with was SCARY and embarrassing to rope with, she seriously had no idea… eventually quit horses once she graduated (blessing!). You’ll have the skills to pay the bills in no time if you keep at it, don’t get discouraged! It might just be too big of a rush for him and gets too carried away. My grulla had days like that, but he would just be really hot. Maybe practice with some slow ranch roping. I had some roping problems, once I started take part in ranch roping clinics and rodeos it made a WORLD of difference because it’s all slow work. Breakaway and ranch roping are by far my fav

edit: I hope I’m not sounding like a meanie or know it all, I just want to help and I don’t want you ending up hurt because I’ve seen it too many times >_<

[bbird930]

Ideally, I’d like to just steer stop. My horse is a registered paint and I can go to paint shows and jump, do ranch pleasure or something, and also steer stop. I’m not looking to win big necessarily (though that would be cool!)… I’m just looking to get out and enjoy my horse by doing multiple things with him.

I really had no idea that heading horses were easier to cripple. Why is that? Getting the steer in a better place for the heeler?

[riderank_makebank]

[QUOTE=bbird930;7806675]
Ideally, I’d like to just steer stop. My horse is a registered paint and I can go to paint shows and jump, do ranch pleasure or something, and also steer stop. I’m not looking to win big necessarily (though that would be cool!)… I’m just looking to get out and enjoy my horse by doing multiple things with him.

I really had no idea that heading horses were easier to cripple. Why is that? Getting the steer in a better place for the heeler?[/QUOTE]

Cool! We don’t have steer stopping here, another thing I would like to get started up here in the great white north :lol: That’s awesome that you want him to be versatile, all my horses are. I work cattle with my TB and ride hunters with my professional barrel horse lmao.

Ohhh man, I’ve seen countless buggered up head horses. Generally it’s from constantly being jerked around, pulled on, dragging, stopping and bracing and grabbing gears to make a hard left. I find it really hard on their front ends and shoulders, they can get short strided in the front and “shuffle”. I used to borrow a horse on the ranch I worked for and he was FCKED from pulling bulls around. I hated riding him, I felt so bad. I know some people take care of their rope horses much better than others, it’s the guys (and some girls) who treat them like 4 wheelers that end up with injured or unsound horses. With heel horses, you just stretch a steer out, brace a bit then BOOM flag goes down, done! Not work work work, brace, pull… Some horses are built better to handle it and plainly have no problems being head horses.

[beau159]

Something just doesn’t quite add up. Granted, it would be a lot easier if we could see you work him in person.

I’m not understanding how he is perfect when you are not swinging a rope, but a monster to cows when you are. There has to be more than one difference than just the rope.

Are you tensing up when you’ve got a rope in your hands?
Are you not using your legs anymore?
Are you getting harder with your hands without realizing it (or too soft, for that matter)?

What happens if you just score him on the box but don’t actually rope? Is the excitement of taking off from the box that it making him nutty?

I just don’t see how you holding a rope in your hands is the ONLY thing that is setting him off on the cows. There has to be something else going on.

Since your current trainer is laid up, can she recommend anyone else to help you?