Please read with an open mind for a non-breeders honest question

[AmarachAcres]

I know nothing about breeding other than that I respect good breeders and despise “she has an empty uterus” breeders.

However I was in a discussion and someone said something so I googled it.

Apparently there are some mares that have to be hobbled/restrained/drugged/what have you to breed. They either hate it that much or aren’t in season (That part doesn’t make sense to me).

To me, this is nothing short of abuse. Is there something I’m missing on this?

Some of the videos I found seem brutal. Basically mares being raped and trying to fight it every step of the way.

Again, I’m not here to throw stones. However, I would like to be educated and know if this is looked down on, ignored, allowed, encouraged, despised, what have you.

From what I read and saw, I cannot find any reason why this would be ok. If a mare is so valuable you just HAVE to have her foal, why not use AI instead of putting her through this?

I don’t get it. I’m not against animal husbandry but those videos made me want to cry.

[candyappy]

I have bred a few mares over the years myself and also boarded at a barn where the owner had 2 nice studs standing. Some mares even though they are in heat and ready to be bred can be uncooperative. Sometimes it is the stud they don’t like, or they have had a bad breeding experience in the past and sometimes people need to help things along. I have never seen any of the stuff you mentioned, except for them giving the mare something to relax her. She was of course teased beforehand and responsive and willing for the teasing pony.
I think force that you mentioned is abuse too. If you have to resort to those measures to get her bred I would pass.

My mares sometimes needed a shot to bring them in heat ( so we could tell when they were ready) , but were willing to breed with whatever stud I had chosen.

[Aven]

As to why some dont’ do AI. Some breeds don’t allow anything but live cover (looking at you Jockey club)

[cheerio280]

[QUOTE=AmarachAcres;8058076]
Apparently there are some mares that have to be hobbled/restrained/drugged/what have you to breed. They either hate it that much or aren’t in season (That part doesn’t make sense to me).[/QUOTE]

Hi Amarach! I’m not a breeder, so I won’t pretend to know all the ins and outs of the industry, but I worked for a semester in a Standardbred breeding program, so I’d like to mention a couple of things from that perspective.

First of all, a mare must have an ovulatory follicle to get pregnant. This means that she should be “in heat”, or receptive to the stallion. But, not all mares will show heat to the same extent or in the same way.

In the program I was involved with, we only did AI. However, I was also involved in a research project where we had to tease mares. Sometimes, we’d have a mare with a huge follicle who would barely show any signs of heat and still wanted to kick the stud. Some of it is just individual variation in the mares’ personalities. Some of them were in their foal heat, which can also complicate things. A foal would never be allowed in the breeding shed for safety reasons, so the mare might have to be sedated just to be taken away from her foal for a short time.

Live cover is already a bit of a tricky procedure. When you add in some of the factors I mentioned above, that further complicates things. Most of the restraint boils down to two main things: you want to protect your stud, and you want to protect the handlers. A good stallion represents a significant financial investment, so if you are in a situation where you have to do live cover, the hobbles prevent the mare from kicking the stallion (which could obviously be very bad for him!)- and it doesn’t matter how receptive the mare is. They’re not going to let him get close enough to find out- that’s not a chance you want to take with your animal or your investment. A lot of the other restraint that you’d see (twitches, etc) is to keep things under control so that it is as safe as possible for the people involved.

Of the three things you mentioned- hobbles, restraint, and sedation- none of them are inherently bad. If used appropriately, I think all 3 have their place at times in the breeding shed. However, there are people who (knowingly or not) misuse these things, and I’m sure some of that has been captured on video and ended up on the internet.

[Ritazza]

I think there is also some aspect of stallion socialization that is often missed, and both mares and stallions suffer for it. Valuable stallions are usually kept isolated, so when they go into that breeding shed they know what they are there for, and it ain’t for dinner and a movie. There is a lack of polite courtship before the breeding takes place. A polite stallion will tease the mare, chat with her awhile, politely mount when she’s ready, etc. Some stallions will walk right in and throw themselves on the mare and savage her, which I’m sure even for the most in flaming heat mare can be alarming and surely painful.

[Laurierace]

For live cover they usually put booties the mare’s hind feet and hold a front leg up and twitch her to make her unable to kick the stallion and injure him. That is not necessarily because she is unwilling to stand but because she just left her foal minutes before, or the stallion came on too strong too soon and didn’t woo her just right, or she could simply be objecting to the restraint.

[RTF]

Agree 110 percent with Cheerio. If you have never been to a stallion barn or breeding operation, there is definitely a risk factor to the horses and the humans. Yes, you might have seen poor examples of restraints…but when used properly they can keep everyone safer.

[Appsolute]

I will just add, I am NOT a breeder, I will admit, I don’t have a 10th of the experience many people on here do.

But there are GOOD breeding operations, which handle things well, and there are BAD breeders.

I got my start riding with a Arabian sport horse breeder - and witnessed a number of live covers there. I don’t remember any extreme dramatics. Their stallion was well socialized, and knew his job. Their mares were handled well, with minimal restraints, and every thing seemed to go smoothly. Same goes for the other breeder I knew (TBs for sport).

AND - then there was the BAD breeder. I was riding a few horses at the same barn as a lady who was breeding TB crosses for the hunter ring.

The stallion was old, and looked well past his prime - maybe that is why the mares seemed to reject him so vehemently.

But it was UGLY, mares twitched, tied, restrained, man handled - WILD EYED with fear. I saw one mare break away from her handler, and proceed to run THROUGH two wooden fences to get away from the stallion.

Beyond not willing to stand, I witnessed at least 3 mares that didn’t want to be in the same county as this stallion. Panic stricken, they were doing everything in their power to get away from him.

I don’t know all of the “whys” this breeder was having such an issue, but it was certainly stressful and violent for the mares.

What I witnessed was abusive in my eyes, and I would never in a million years want to subject my mare to it.

So, while I had no objections to what I saw go on at the first two breeders - the third, uggg…not pretty, and not something I would subject an animal to.

The other “issue” I have with restraints - while I am sure its a rarity. I know that occasionally mares are injured, sometimes quite severely from being penetrated too deeply. I have a hard time believing a mare would willingly stand as she was getting injured quite painfully - and that restraints most likely play a role. And I know “breeding rolls” can be used to prevent these injuries - but some mares still experience them - so the breeders weren’t using the rolls - or didn’t use them properly.

[Linny]

In the TB world, many mares are hobbled or have a foreleg lifted. There simply isn’t time for wine and roses and that bothers some mares. Some stallions are aggressive and a mare might be inclined to kick. Protection for humans as well as the horses is sometimes a “better safe than sorry” situation.

[EventerAJ]

What Linny and Laurie said.
I have been to breeding sheds in Ky many times. Before the mare ever sees the stallion, she will be thoroughly teased by a mutt pony stallion. Maidens are often jumped by the teaser. Standard procedure is to outfit the mare in hind booties-- not hobbles-- and maybe a leather neck protector for the stallion to bite on. She’s brought into the breeding area, twitched and another handler holds up a front leg with a leather strap. The stallion is brought in, allowed to court the mare briefly, then gets to business. As he mounts, the mare’s foreleg is put down so she can balance. A breeding roll is always used, different sizes for different stallions.

The name of the game is safety. Million dollar stallions and expensive mares along with human lives are at risk. Handlers wear helmets and safety vests. It comes across as unnatural, but it is the best, safest way to get mares in foal for the TB business.

[Laurierace]

This is very informative.
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/19950/the-business-of-breeding

[stoicfish]

Most Wb’s are bred by AI. Fairly benign and the worst part is cold hands
(rectal tears are the most common negative outcome)
Someone could be inappropriate in the treatment of the mare but it is usually a very quiet process. Most mares do not mind.

People can be awful and mistreat animals regardless of what they are doing with them. Training, hauling, trimming…etc. I wouldn’t blame the process as much as I would condemn individuals.