Please share your observations re young horse behavior pre-backing vs. under saddle

[cardinale]

Those of you who raise or buy young, what have been your experiences re correlation between behavior of foals and young horses growing up vs. later under-saddle training?

I have a 2-yo that was a “surprise” baby out of a young QH-type filly I bought as a companion for another horse. So, this is a grade QH of unknown paternity. The father could be anything that was running on the Texas plains at the time. The mother is sweet and good natured. I had no prior experience with youngsters and didn’t plan to deal with one.

Since birth, this colt (now gelding) has been pushy, has a “don’t want to” response to lots of things, and constantly tests the handler. That’s clearly his innate personality type. I’ve spent a lot of time working with him on the ground to make him respect my space, not show food aggression, and to try to get him to be more cooperative in general.

When he was a yearling, I moved and during that time (a couple of months) sent him to an experienced young horse handler who greatly improved his manners. However, now I have him so of course every day is training day raising a youngster. And, of course his fundamental personality hasn’t changed.

He’s not “horrible” to be around but I do have to be on my toes 100% of the time to keep him from pushing boundaries because he does. not. stop. trying. If I drop my vigilance he soon transgresses (moves into my space, pins ears at feeding time, etc.). The pro who had him said the same thing–they had to really work at keeping him from doing what he wanted. It might be relevant to point out that he has an eye that is on the small side, and basically a kind of sour look much of the time (especially when he is being asked to do something he doesn’t want to do, which is often ).

He’s actually reasonably well conformed, athletic, a good size for me to ride later, and overall a nice looking young horse (for not being a fancy purpose-bred sporthorse). Because he’s outgoing, he’s probably going to be fairly bold under saddle. So, I was thinking of keeping him. When the time comes, I would send him out to an experienced young horse starter to be be backed, and later I’d get regular help.

My question for those of you who deal with youngsters: have you found that those who exhibit these behavioral traits tend to end up being difficult under saddle? Or as long as they are started correctly and “forward” is instilled, that overall they are no more difficult than other personality types?

Thanks for your input.

[Critter]

I can share my most recents, since I’ve been buying babies lately.
Yearling gelding I bought…very cheeky type, brave, super friendly, loved to rough play with the others colts…got gelded early by the breeder because he was a bit obnoxious to the rest of the herd. He was always testing boundaries, but super friendly/sweet with his people. Doing his under saddle prep he was really easy…cared less about tarps/saddles/etc. Had a freak out the first time he was fully sat on. Went to a pro trainer to break…he was riding in parades as a green 3.5 yo. I love him but he is mentally exhausting to ride. He is always questioning the rider, making you reinforce what you want. He is brave, but if he is not doing stuff all the time, he goofs off and can be hard to focus. He is like a perpetual toddler poking you and asking why every second. He needs a rider who can make him go to work…and he gets bored super easy.

2yo mare I bought…she arrived as very reserved but friendly. Fairly brave but alert about stuff. Super polite about space. Not a very outgoing horse with everyone, but agreeable. She was a bit harder to start under saddle…she is super athletic and had a few things she got overwhelmed about in the beginning starting process. Had to have a few clear moments of these are the rules (ie if you get asked to lower your head, you need to do it without challenging the handler). She is the BEST mare for me to ride as a coming 6yo. She is very polite and respectful, though she is also very clear about communicating if she doesn’t understand or is unhappy, but once you recognize that and make adjustments you get an immediate response. She is alert but brave under saddle…she will test a bit more and can have a spicy side, but she never crosses the line.

For me…I sold the gelding…he was too mentally exhausting for me to work with and it was becoming not fun. However, for someone who liked more variety in their work, they really enjoy him. My mare I adore and love her personality…she’s a warrior but she has my back and takes care of me. And as long as I am polite and respectful back to her, she does everything I ask her.

[Demerara_Stables]

They are pretty much the same under saddle as they are on the ground. However - they do grow out of a lot of nonsense you mention with consistent, proper handling. This one sounds like he’ll be a bit of a turd in the beginning, but by 5 or 6 (or 14, ask me how I know ), he might be lovely. It depends on how much you like him otherwise and how long you’re willing to deal with his sh*t.

Is there a possibility of keeping him through when he’s started and then seeing how you like riding him before deciding to sell?

[cardinale]

@Demerara_Stables

They are pretty much the same under saddle as they are on the ground. However - they do grow out of a lot of nonsense you mention with consistent, proper handling. This one sounds like he’ll be a bit of a turd in the beginning, but by 5 or 6 (or 14, ask me how I know ), he might be lovely. It depends on how much you like him otherwise and how long you’re willing to deal with his sh*t.

Is there a possibility of keeping him through when he’s started and then seeing how you like riding him before deciding to sell?

Yes, I’m inclined to hang on to him until he’s started–he’s not flaky or a screwup, which bodes well for reasonable behavior under saddle, eventually. He’s just…self-centered. “Bit of a turd” is a perfect description–in fact, his nickname when he tries my patience is “Turdlet” (how did you know? )

Critter, your experience with your youngsters gives me hope–they worked out under saddle even if the gelding wasn’t one you wanted to keep. Your mare sounds great!

When Turdlet is out of line and the kibosh gets put on (usually = made to move his feet), no bite or kick, and afterwords he licks and chews, then brightens up. I suspect he’s just in a “sullen teenager” phase. And, Demerara, I do think he’ll try stuff when he gets started under saddle, which is why I’m sending him out for sure for backing.

Thanks for the replies. I just don’t have prior experience with youngsters so worried about what his attitude might portend. It’s fascinating to watch them grow and develop, mentally as well as physically.

[goodhors]

Have to agree that he will ALWAYS be more work to ride, though he should smooth out with continued training and age. I don’t think he will be “an hour a day” type riding horse, he needs longer hours and possibly a job to keep him interested, not being so pushy. The old “it takes a lot of wet saddle blankets to make a good horse” would apply here. Might be a wonderful trail horse!!

Without knowing his breeding, hard to say if that could be part of it. There are some lines that are pushy, harder headed, because they need to be that way to get their jobs done for the cowboys. They are born that way, training and work keep them cooperative to use, but they do not change their basic personality.

You need to decide if you want to deal with this in the long term. He will ALWAYS be pushing, asking “do you REALLY mean that?” It is how they move up in herd status, with you as the alpha.

We deal with this often, they would ALL like to be number one! Smart horses are like that! Not bad like what your gelding is trying, but asking if we would like them to make the choices in their work! Herd dynamics are pretty stable, not much arguing, they accept their places. Just occasionally asking alpha horse if they want to move down, then he/she has to bite or run one off saying NO!

Professional training help is a great choice, but you will probably need to stay alert with him if you keep him. Geldings want to dominate much more than mares, don’t give in as easily, keep trying you.

[endlessclimb]

@goodhors

Geldings want to dominate much more than mares, don’t give in as easily, keep trying you.

My experiences could not be more opposite. Shows you that horses are all different!

[Texarkana]

A horses personality is their personality. I wouldn’t expect him to react to riding differently than he reacts to anything else. But that doesn’t mean he will be “bad” or “difficult.” You’ll just need to figure out the most effective form of communication for what you’re working with.

I grew up with breeders, so I’ve been working with young horses since I was a child. I say this because I also have a “surprise” foal who is also two right now. And oy vey, she is a not-fun personality. She’s not difficult per se, but she is also pushy, opinionated, prone to ear-pinny reactions, will even take a shot at you with a hind leg if she thinks she can get away with it (I don’t know why she ever thinks she can get away with it). Being around young horses basically my entire life and raising many, I’ve never had one quite this annoying. Hoping she grows out of it. She longes, wears tack, etc… One of these days I’ll actually back her. But I won’t lie, I’ve been procrastinating because I don’t think she’s going to be fun to start.

[goodhors]

Could be the kinds (breeds) of horses we like to use. Of course individuals vary a lot too! Some geldings are sweeties, others are not.

Rule here is that any horse has to be enjoyable to use or someone else gets to own them. We only have GOOD horses here. Ha ha We put in our time in the past, trying to make a few be things they didn’t want to be, like mannerly, fun to use. They were not, p#¥*€ attitude dId not improve with time. Not living the “Black Beauty” idea that love will change them. Seen that backfire numerous times!!

Horse use is SUPPOSED to be fun, start to finish, on the ground or being worked. Cost the same to own and use GOOD horses, as it does owning ones who don’t want to be nice. Can get very wearing on you to never be able to trust that horse when interacting with it.

[endlessclimb]

100% agree with you there! I generally put a year on a horse - if they aren’t making good progress towards being “good” in a year, they are out.

[ASBJumper]

Agree with most here who say their personality doesn’t magically morph from “tricky” into “super laidback/easy”, however - i have known a few youngsters (only one that was owned by me, most were owned by friends/acquaintances) that were quiet and easygoing as babies but that had violent objections to under saddle work, for whatever reason. The one that I had was pretty pleasant on the ground 99% of the time, non-reactive for the most part (until you did something she didn’t like - then watch out), but she didn’t really exhibit an inclination towards spending time with people. She’d often stop and try to turn around when being led out of the paddock away from her friends, or plant her feet. Other than that she was pretty darn pleasant to be around, people gushed over her and fawned over her and told me how wonderful she was… until it came time to actually start “work”. First time she had a surcingle on she bucked like a wild mustang for 5 minutes straight. First time she had a saddle on she lost her mind and got loose while being lunged. First time sat on, as soon as the ground person asked her to walk forward she immediately launched into a bucking spree.

I sold her, she was sent to a pro trainer by the new owner, but she continued to be difficult. She was sold to another girl, that girl had all sorts of issues with her as well. She just had zero work ethic. Not overly aggressive, mean, or pushy or reactive, but didn’t.like.working.with.people. She was vetted up the wazoo, no pain or medical issues whatsoever, just didn’t love being worked.

You can definitely overcome a lot of baby shenanigans if, at the root of it all, they still seek you out for attention/interaction. At the end of the day, if this colt voluntarily leaves his friends and comes to you in the field and seeks you out, then you have something to work with. If catching him is a bit of a chore and he’s constantly testing you/being grumpy about everything you do with him, then i’d say it’s pretty safe to predict it’s not going to be a fun journey when he has to do “real work”.

Good luck!

[beowulf]

@Texarkana

I grew up with breeders, so I’ve been working with young horses since I was a child. I say this because I also have a “surprise” foal who is also two right now. And oy vey, she is a not-fun personality. She’s not difficult per se, but she is also pushy, opinionated, prone to ear-pinny reactions, will even take a shot at you with a hind leg if she thinks she can get away with it (I don’t know why she ever thinks she can get away with it). Being around young horses basically my entire life and raising many, I’ve never had one quite this annoying. Hoping she grows out of it. She longes, wears tack, etc… One of these days I’ll actually back her. But I won’t lie, I’ve been procrastinating because I don’t think she’s going to be fun to start.

There’s hope for your girl! My filly went through this phase so you have my sympathy. Just keeping it consistent, one day she turned a corner. She’s a joy to be around now. Occasionally, if she is really over threshold (AKA at a new overwhelming venue) she can get bargy. But she’s learned to keep her feet to herself.

She does still pin her ears at feeding time. I tried in every way I knew how to change that behavior, but now I just ignore it. She doesn’t try to get into my space anymore and I think it’s her just expressing Opinions.

BTW. As pushy as she was on the ground, she has been nothing but a joy under saddle. One of the easiest horses I’ve ever brought along. Charitable, sensible, and willing to try anything new. Just don’t ask her to move fast cause she’s a Luxury Vehicle not a street car.

As far as the OP goes, I’ve found it all over the board, and think it depends more on their early handling than people think. Young horses that come to me never having a bad day seem to be way more adaptable and easy to bring along, than youngsters that have had unfair, rushed, or inconsistent handling. The older I’ve gotten, the more time and attention I’ve paid to ramping up the “ask” in a very slow, horse friendly way. Which sometimes means taking longer than a professional in a program might. But IMO the end result = a horse that never resents being asked to work. Worth it.

[Texarkana]

@beowulf

There’s hope for your girl! My filly went through this phase so you have my sympathy. Just keeping it consistent, one day she turned a corner. She’s a joy to be around now. Occasionally, if she is really over threshold (AKA at a new overwhelming venue) she can get bargy. But she’s learned to keep her feet to herself.

She does still pin her ears at feeding time. I tried in every way I knew how to change that behavior, but now I just ignore it. She doesn’t try to get into my space anymore and I think it’s her just expressing Opinions.

BTW. As pushy as she was on the ground, she has been nothing but a joy under saddle. One of the easiest horses I’ve ever brought along. Charitable, sensible, and willing to try anything new. Just don’t ask her to move fast cause she’s a Luxury Vehicle not a street car.

Oh, I have hope for her. She’s just ANNOYING. And it’s not even the pushiness or ear pinning that’s the most annoying, all of that is very manageable. It’s the fact that everything in a 20ft radius at any time is a “toy” to be played with and destroyed with her mouth and feet. Water troughs, hay bags, feeders, buckets, lead ropes, crossties, salt blocks, halters, fly masks, fly boots, brushes, spray bottles, the actual barn… I can’t believe she actually keeps blankets on, because she has to mouth and/or remove everything else. It was a nightmare when she had a major injury I had to keep wrapped.

It’s not like I let her or encouraged her, she’s been obsessed with doing it from day 1 and really doesn’t care if she’s told no.

She’s from the first crop of her sire, and from what I’ve heard, she comes by this honestly through dad.

Although I hope she turns into a joy like yours!

[Demerara_Stables]

@cardinale

his nickname when he tries my patience is “Turdlet” (how did you know? )

Because baby geldings

[luv2lope]

I can totally commiserate with you right now as I am going through this with my horse. I agree that a horse’s personality is what you get, no matter how hard you try to change them. I think that maturity does help, but even then it only makes a slight difference.

I have a difficult 3 year old. I can’t wait until the day he leaves my hands. Worst purchase EVER-- he’s just an absolute prick. Sold my heart horse (didn’t realize it at the time) and paid 20k for a yearling that was supposed to be a step up from my mare. I did everything right, the seller put lots of handle on him as a youngster but he was not overhandled. It’s been 2 years and I still feel no connection to this horse. He’s like the little kid brother that gets into everything and makes the wrong decisions every time.

He is SO freaking talented but his mind gets in the way of everything-- spooky, busy minded, and just tough in general. I heard through the grapevine that the sire of my horse throws “hot and busy minded babies” that people can’t unload without taking a big hit on price. Riding him feels like 1 step forward and 5 steps back, EVERY ride. A combination of spooky, looky, and not wanting to work. It’s just constant arguing, we mix like oil and water. I have tried being nice and coddling him, that makes him worse so I have to get tough with him which is better but still not great. He needs to be in a trainer’s program full time, even then, I think a trainer would send him down the road.

He is currently off as he is injured, but I was going to give him a good 6 months off even if he wasn’t. He is just so immature mentally and part of me is desperately trying to do everything I can think of to make it work. I’m going to treat him for ulcers once I have some money again, as a last resort. I want to give him a great chance, but he’s sucked the joy of owning horses and riding out of me right now. I think he’s going to be the horse that didn’t work out for me.

I’m going back to basics and making sure I put as much time into him as I can (ie. clipping, tying, dragging him all over the place). That goes with saying that I need to stay tough too (I’m getting soft as I age lol).

I will say that his only redeeming quality is that he is SUPER in your pocket. He’s the kind of horse to coming running up to you in the field. Oh, and he jumps on the trailer too!

[Demerara_Stables]

FWIW, This is just how baby geldings are. And some baby mares too. It might take him a while to grow up but you are doing the right thing by giving him time off and going back to basics. It makes me sad to hear stories like this because babies can be so fun, but you do have to realize that sometimes you just have to laugh at them and let them do their baby sh*t for a while.

[luv2lope]

I’ve broken out all my horses, getting them from a young age and putting all the work into them. I’ve learned a lot and it gives me a sense of accomplishment and pride. I actually enjoy breaking them out, it’s so fun to watch them go from knowing nothing to becoming a broke show horse years later. This one has just been so disappointing…it started out fun but when asking him to work a little harder that’s where he comes up short. I’m hoping that having time off to grow, as well as being back at a close barn that maaaaaybe things will turn around. This is the first one that it hasn’t been “fun” to train. Fingers crossed that things start looking up!

[4horses]

I have had several young horses all with completely different personalities.

My paint mare was love at first sight. I went to look at her at the breeder and she galloped up and was all over me. Not even halter broke. Not weaned. I took her home because she was everything I wanted. Beautiful, sweet, friendly. She is my herd boss but she’s also a very sensitive mare and she bucked like a fiend the first time I saddled her. I did a lot of groundwork but once I was on her back things were great. I’m her person and she takes “care” of me. The only problem I had with her was her hormones. She is very difficult when in season. All over the boys and very hard to focus on anything else. If she’s in season I get out a stud shank and a whip because she will just drag you off to go say hi to the boys.

I have 2 youngsters now and they have totally different personalities. My mare is serious and lazy. She has attitude about being forced to work but we are making progress with that. I think she just doesn’t like arena work. “This is boring. Why do we have to do circles?”

My young gelding is a big goof. He is pushy but I think some of that is immaturity. “Oh, the boss mare has better hay then me. She wouldn’t mind if I steal some from her…” walks up to boss mare and nearly gets kicked. Tonight they were sharing hay, to my surprise. So I guess his persistence won in the end.

He is going to be way more headstong then his mother. But he loves attention and being fussed over and his first few rides have gone smoothly. Headstrong, yes. Pushy, yes. Sweet, absolutely. Still an annoying and goofy child who might step on your feet because he wants to be on your lap. I do have to constantly correct him about things. There’s nothing malicious in him but he might try to drag you off if he thinks he can get away with it.

[EventerAJ]

Some personality traits carry over on the ground to under saddle.

Sometimes they don’t.

Sometimes horses grow out of baby insecurities. Sometimes they don’t.

It’s difficult to say, and nature vs nurture also plays a big part.

My first homebred was VERY dominant, testing and trying Every Single Day of his life. I set firm boundaries and never let him cross it. But he would still try to put a toe on the wrong side every day; he wanted to be pushy, food aggressive, and try to get away with anything. But under saddle? A dream. Willing, kind, forgiving. He was quiet, push ride, but not lazy. He eventually sold to an older AA who could handle BS on the ground but needed a confidence builder under saddle.

Most of my other homebreds are more in line with basic personality and under saddle traits. The sensitive, reactive horse on the ground tends to me more sensitive and reactive under saddle (but also has moments where he is surprisingly brave and safe). The brave, goofy horse on the ground is brave and goofy under saddle. But, one of the fillies who seemed really quiet and lazy to lead, is starting to be very motivated and ambitious now starting under tack.

It really just depends on the horse. Some of them enjoy work and their outlook on life improves under saddle. Others don’t. It’s worth giving the horse a good start and a chance to show you what they can do.

[CanteringCarrot]

@Texarkana

@beowulf

There’s hope for your girl! My filly went through this phase so you have my sympathy. Just keeping it consistent, one day she turned a corner. She’s a joy to be around now. Occasionally, if she is really over threshold (AKA at a new overwhelming venue) she can get bargy. But she’s learned to keep her feet to herself.

She does still pin her ears at feeding time. I tried in every way I knew how to change that behavior, but now I just ignore it. She doesn’t try to get into my space anymore and I think it’s her just expressing Opinions.

BTW. As pushy as she was on the ground, she has been nothing but a joy under saddle. One of the easiest horses I’ve ever brought along. Charitable, sensible, and willing to try anything new. Just don’t ask her to move fast cause she’s a Luxury Vehicle not a street car.

Oh, I have hope for her. She’s just ANNOYING. And it’s not even the pushiness or ear pinning that’s the most annoying, all of that is very manageable. It’s the fact that everything in a 20ft radius at any time is a “toy” to be played with and destroyed with her mouth and feet. Water troughs, hay bags, feeders, buckets, lead ropes, crossties, salt blocks, halters, fly masks, fly boots, brushes, spray bottles, the actual barn… I can’t believe she actually keeps blankets on, because she has to mouth and/or remove everything else. It was a nightmare when she had a major injury I had to keep wrapped.

It’s not like I let her or encouraged her, she’s been obsessed with doing it from day 1 and really doesn’t care if she’s told no.

She’s from the first crop of her sire, and from what I’ve heard, she comes by this honestly through dad.

Although I hope she turns into a joy like yours!

This is my 3 year old in a nutshell. He gets it through dad because he has some half siblings with the same habits and behaviors. He will only keep a blanket on and not mess with it if it’s very very cold. He tolerated a blanket when the temps were in the negatives.

He’s destroyed buckets, knocked over huge water troughs, gotten into troughs (he LOVES water), dumps water buckets, can undo carabiners (which results in throwing haynets and buckets), will roll buckets around, will stick his hoof in a bucket no matter how high, will open things, untie things, and generally isn’t fit to live a domesticated lifestyle lead ropes, cross ties, and reins are all edible objects. Trash cans are awesome too. Amazingly, he didn’t destroy fly masks.

He does these things whether he’s stalled, out 24/7, on 2 acres or 20. He’s smart and generally nice to work with. He does like people and is interested in most things, but he’s ANNOYING.

He was “begging” last night because he wanted someone’s plastic cup with ice in it because he loved the sound of the ice. He’s not rude, and he is corrected when he’s too much, but I don’t want to totally kill his intelligent and inquisitive nature. He gives zero f*cks about some things that would matter to some horses, which can be nice. He was very easy to start under saddle and has taken to it very well, so there’s that!

[Texarkana]

@CanteringCarrot

@Texarkana

@beowulf

There’s hope for your girl! My filly went through this phase so you have my sympathy. Just keeping it consistent, one day she turned a corner. She’s a joy to be around now. Occasionally, if she is really over threshold (AKA at a new overwhelming venue) she can get bargy. But she’s learned to keep her feet to herself.

She does still pin her ears at feeding time. I tried in every way I knew how to change that behavior, but now I just ignore it. She doesn’t try to get into my space anymore and I think it’s her just expressing Opinions.

BTW. As pushy as she was on the ground, she has been nothing but a joy under saddle. One of the easiest horses I’ve ever brought along. Charitable, sensible, and willing to try anything new. Just don’t ask her to move fast cause she’s a Luxury Vehicle not a street car.

Oh, I have hope for her. She’s just ANNOYING. And it’s not even the pushiness or ear pinning that’s the most annoying, all of that is very manageable. It’s the fact that everything in a 20ft radius at any time is a “toy” to be played with and destroyed with her mouth and feet. Water troughs, hay bags, feeders, buckets, lead ropes, crossties, salt blocks, halters, fly masks, fly boots, brushes, spray bottles, the actual barn… I can’t believe she actually keeps blankets on, because she has to mouth and/or remove everything else. It was a nightmare when she had a major injury I had to keep wrapped.

It’s not like I let her or encouraged her, she’s been obsessed with doing it from day 1 and really doesn’t care if she’s told no.

She’s from the first crop of her sire, and from what I’ve heard, she comes by this honestly through dad.

Although I hope she turns into a joy like yours!

This is my 3 year old in a nutshell. He gets it through dad because he has some half siblings with the same habits and behaviors. He will only keep a blanket on and not mess with it if it’s very very cold. He tolerated a blanket when the temps were in the negatives.

He’s destroyed buckets, knocked over huge water troughs, gotten into troughs (he LOVES water), dumps water buckets, can undo carabiners (which results in throwing haynets and buckets), will roll buckets around, will stick his hoof in a bucket no matter how high, will open things, untie things, and generally isn’t fit to live a domesticated lifestyle lead ropes, cross ties, and reins are all edible objects. Trash cans are awesome too. Amazingly, he didn’t destroy fly masks.

He does these things whether he’s stalled, out 24/7, on 2 acres or 20. He’s smart and generally nice to work with. He does like people and is interested in most things, but he’s ANNOYING.

He was “begging” last night because he wanted someone’s plastic cup with ice in it because he loved the sound of the ice. He’s not rude, and he is corrected when he’s too much, but I don’t want to totally kill his intelligent and inquisitive nature. He gives zero f*cks about some things that would matter to some horses, which can be nice. He was very easy to start under saddle and has taken to it very well, so there’s that!

We own the same horse.

I’ve always seen horses like this and wondered what happened when raising them to make them like that. Turns out, nothing… they were born like this.