Pleasure driving: How to choose the right cart & where to buy?

[TheQuarterGirl]

Good evening everyone!

I hope it’s okay that I make another thread. I figured that people could have the same questions as I have and maybe this thread could be used as another resource (especially considering how helpful people have been!).

So upon further research it looks like some people suggest different carts (particularly color) depending on the breed of horse you have. From what I’ve gathered, bright colored carts should be used with flashy, high stepping horses and dark/muted colored carts (or wood stains) should be used for horses with opposite movement. Is this true? I also looked and some people have suggested different types of carts depending on what breed you have. If this is true, could someone give some good examples?

My mare is a western pleasure bred AQHA. So she’s a bit slow legged and flat kneed when it comes to movement. I’ll post a picture of her below! Would anyone have any suggestions as to what I should look for with a horse like her?

Second question is where do I find these carts? I’ve been browsing Facebook Marketplace but recently their search results have been trash. I’ve even tried related FB groups and haven’t found a whole lot (if I’m even able to find any…). Are there places (or known makers) in the US where a lot of pleasure drivers like to go for cart shopping? If it helps, I’m in Michigan. I’m willing to do some driving to find the right cart!

Thank you guys again!! I appreciate how nice and helpful this community has been!

[DMK]

Grey horse can never go wrong with black!

Facebook groups are your best bet

Here’s a screen shot of the ones I’m a member of. Some are clubs (in the SE US) but some are mostly sales. People tend to advertise on multiple does when they are selling equipment so you might not need to join them all .

[2DogsFarm]

Leroy Martin in Napanee, IN can build you a custom cart for a reasonable (not saying cheap) price.
He does excellent work, even makes his own wood wheels.
He made my road cart, using one of his “blanks” that I customized .
Plain vanilla blank:

My finished cart - 1st incarnation:

2nd go-round, after I switched from brass to stainless:

ETA: link
https://justplainbusiness.com/martins-buggy-shop/

[goodhors]

If you plan to show in QH shows, you probably will want a light harness cart and use a fine harness, so you are similar to the other competitors in the QH ring. Brand names are usually Houghton, Jerald, Serafin, though there are other makers out there. This is the same style cart and harness as seen on Saddlebreds showing.with 2-wheel carts. I believe an overcheck rein is expected to be seen on the QH. Carriage driving folks seldom use checkreins, have different Rules. Rules would also cover acceptable wheels, wooden or rubber tires with chrome spokes. Some makers have inter-changeable wheels, so you can use either on the same cart. These are not the same style cart as 2DogsFarm has pictured. I do see the fine harness style carts for sale on FB regularly. I am in Michigan as well!

Agree with DMK, black harness, dark cart would look great on a grey horse. Read the class Rules to know what they expect to see in the ring for vehicles and harness. The gaits expected from the horse and driver should also be covered in the QH Rules. Whip may be mentioned, should be lightweight, dark, reach the shoulder of hitched horse. No rump tapping with reins or whip! Whip is held in your right hand all the time you are driving. Reins should be long enough for you to sit on the buckle with slack leather from buckle to your hands. Same width as riding reins to be comfortable in your hands. Reins buckle onto the bit, are always brown the entire length unless there is some new fad/style in QH circles I may not know about.

Personally, I think a varnished, natural wood cart would contrast too much with a grey horse in color. Carts can cost an incredible amount to be totally refinished, so better to buy the desired color than change the color. Shafts should reach the horse point of shoulder, with enough room behind rump to have hoof clear the foot basket at your biggest trot.

Are there any pictures in the QH Journal of the driving horses you can look at for ideas? Breed shows can be REALLY different than Driving shows in their desired looks, how the horses are presented and move. You may have a couple trots to show the Judge, like a working and extended, Rules should tell you this.

[TheQuarterGirl]

I might have to take a closer look at his shop! Those carts are beautiful! Thank you for the suggestions!

[TheQuarterGirl]

Thank you for the reply! We currently don’t plan on showing AQHA. While I’ve shown AQHA in the past, she just doesn’t have the natural talent that the judges look for in AQHA’s pleasure driving (at least against most of the HUS bred horses). We plan on doing local shows put on by my state’s driving club as well as some county fair classes! Maybe if we get solid in this we’ll do something bigger…

[DiamondJubilee]

I’m a sucker for a grey in russet harness, but it is an informal turnout and it can be hard to find the correct vehicle to drive to it, so it is limited that way.

There are some great FB pages that DMK stated, there are lots of sales on the Carriage Driving Classifieds page and is actually where I purchased my phaeton last year. Another great one to check out is the Carriage Driving Turnout Forum. There are some nice pictures and posts on there, but of course not all responses are correct as they are just people opinions, but its a good start to see some different turnouts and ideas.

ADS has some great reads on carriages and harness for newbies. They even have a few different greys in russet harness (one hooked to a marathon vehicle so the harness is synthetic, but another in leather harness hooked to a 4 wheeled vehicle - notice the shafts are wrapped in brown patent instead of black patent). Just to give you an idea of a grey with russet harness.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ClubExpressClubFiles/548049/documents/2023_Nov_13_Selecting_Your_First_Carriage_edit_for_ADS_Ed_Library_1297203336.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIA6MYUE6DNNJ6ROIH3&Expires=1731496822&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3D2023_Nov_13_Selecting_Your_First_Carriage_edit_for_ADS_Ed_Library.pdf&Signature=9J4VFGbwksFPC6%2B50fYeBBHN6rg%3D

https://www.americandrivingsociety.org/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=548049&module_id=407856

Though you can’t go wrong with black harness and it would be easier to match a vehicle to it…Just giving you some food for thought!

Are you working with or do you know of anyone who is competing in pleasure shows? Someone you could bounce some ideas off of and have them help you purchase a carriage and harness? Are you leaning towards a 2 wheeled cart or a 4 wheeled vehicle? I don’t think you could really go wrong with either, though a 2 wheeled cart is safer to start with if your horse is new to driving (a horse can jack knife a 4 wheeler if they are startled or spooked).

I don’t think you can really go wrong with any choice of cart with your horse as any of them would be appropriate. You really won’t see too many bright coloured carts out there to be honest with you. They are mainly natural or painted darker colours like black, blue or green, sometimes maroon. I think any colour would work with your beautiful grey. You just need to match your harness to the vehicle you purchase

[DMK]

We save our bright colors for marathon!!!

bridge thrue E|625x500

As long as you have someone really reliable to start your horse and train you and your horse I wouldn’t rule out a 4 wheel. These days marathon and mixed use* vehicles are pretty squat and have turntables that give them a lot of stability. If you have one like the picture (don’t recommend, it’s not cheap and highly specialized), I can confirm it doesn’t want to tip (that’s where the expensive and specialized comes in to play!) Sure it could happen, but it can happen pretty easily in a cart too. Driving isn’t for the faint of heart, it is very hard to do correctly and when things go sideways, it’s several orders of magnitude worse than anything that happens when it’s just a horse with a saddle and bridle. But most the driving horses I see being bought along spend very little time in the cart. The pony in the pic might have spent 2 weeks before he moved on, he spent more time in the drag to help build up proper muscling. And he wasn’t a slam dunk for driving either, definitely was concerned about the monster behind him. So my thought is that a lot of experienced trainers have adapted traditional training methods because the vehicles are far more advanced these days. But if it makes you are the trainer happy to stay 2 wheel longer, that’s fine too. Just providing perspective on what I see in the combined driving side.

'* Mixed use is sort of a wagonette, looks marathon up front but the back has 2 bench seats. Typically has pneumatic wheels. Sometimes when people resell them that call them marathon carriage, but they aren’t. However if you ever did try cdes, they would be fine for beginners, and honestly a lot of people are very happy staying at the lower levels for a variety of reasons, so it’s all good.
This was the pic I meant to post

[DiamondJubilee]

@DMK - we have a Glinkowski Pony Sport which is like the wagonette that you mention. Marathon up front but bench seats in the back, but it is a marathon carriage. We had it built for our pair and only had a smaller trailer (we could only fit 1 carriage and 1 4 wheeler) at the time so we wanted it nice for dressage (it could be dressed up with brass rein rail, brass elephant ears, black mats for the floor, removable grooms seat, leather wrapped shafts for single driving - it can go from pairs to single though it is a heavy carriage for a single) and can then be dressed down for marathon. We removed the rein rail (hubby had a line get caught on it one day during marathon!) and all the mats to make it lighter and added an extendable back step with pads. It has quick change hubs so could go to pneumatic for training at home to hard wheels for competing. It has delayed steering, 5th wheel break (pedal and wheel for groom at the back) and rear breaks, so a true marathon carriage, just a little “fancier” looking. We decided to go with this model over 20 years ago when CDE judges were looking for a more “traditional” type of vehicle for dressage. It is more acceptable now to drive your dressage/cones in a marathon vehicle at the lower levels which is great to see. But now we are kind of stuck with our Pony Sport as its not really something anyone is looking for anymore. Now we have a large trailer that can accommodate 2 carriages (turnout for cones/dressage, marathon and a 4 wheeler) but we haven’t sold this one yet to purchase a more marathon looking carriage yet. We are currently only driving a single…

The Pony Sport is not the greatest for a groom though, it was difficult for me to lean as there isn’t a lot of room up there, even with the extended back step. Its hard for me to lean all the way over as the bench seats are in the way, but I was able to do a bit. Going straight was no problem ha ha!

We do have a single marathon carriage with easy change hubs so we can train with pneumatic wheels. It has a 5th wheel break that is only controlled by the back stepper though as my hubby wasn’t a fan of the 2 pedals in the pair Pony Sport carriage. It of course also has back breaks as well. We both love this carriage and its much easier for me to lean and move the carriage when needed. So now we need to get it in a pair version as our single carriage is far too light for a pair, so maybe one day when we have a pair again, we will sell the Pony Sport and purchase a pair marathon (we have a Dominak single carriage and love it).

NOTE: these carriages are not Pleasure carriages but most pleasure shows now have Utility classes where they are appropriate to show in but its a whole different division than the other classes.

[2DogsFarm]

It’s actually the same cart
At first I had him use the brass fittings & tweed upholstery, as my harness was leather w/brass.
When I switched to biothane & stainless, he redid the cart fittings & reupholstered, along with redoing the pinstriping.
BTW: he does all the pinstriping by hand.
If you close-up on the redone cart, you can see each spindle has pinstriping.

[DiamondJubilee]

@2DogsFarm - I love watching them do the pinstriping! We go to the Syracuse Nationals which is a big car show in NY and they have pinstriping competitions. Lots to see and they are all amazing.

Funny story about the phaeton that we just bought last year. We live in Ontario but the carriage we purchased was in NY and we were heading to the Syracuse Nationals so we planned on meeting up to pick up the carriage. One of the spokes on a wheel was damaged during their travel and the pinstriping was worn off. My husband went to one of the competing car pinstripers and asked if he could fix it. He came right over to the parking area where the carriage was and matched the colour and re pinstriped it. You would never even notice anything was wrong! He did ask us to not hover over him while he was doing it and did not want any photos or video’s taken. But wow, talk about a steady hand.

PS - love your cart

[DMK]

Yeah, if glinkowski (or kuhnle or Bennington) makes it, I have more faith in the balance, but there are a bunch of “lesser” brands out there, plus you found the fatal flaw for keeping the wheels on the ground around a tight, fast turn. Benches are not fun!

BTW my marathon’s name is Gigi, for Green Glinkowski no surprise, Bram really liked her.

I don’t know how I would exist without a 5th wheel brake, sometimes it’s the only thing keeping the rubber side down! Last year I was doing a developing athlete clinic and we were doing 3m boxes set up in the dry water obstacle, so sand/clay base. At the speed we were going the carriage drift was pulling the pony off the track and slowing him down, and that was with me standing on the 5th wheel! So the clinician had me add the rear brake as well. Totally counterintuitive and freaked me out a bit, but it turns out top ranked drivers know what they are talking about. That kept the carriage on track behind the pony, and every lap got faster and faster as I felt the shafts stabilize. I’m envious of people that have both brake and wheel, but both my navigator and I are certain we would die with that kind of responsibility.

As a side note, I put a foam yoga block between my brakes, so I could just slide my toe over for either or both brakes. I was not good at picking my foot fully up and over to put on the brake while being slung around in a hazard. One brake, sure, but then I need the other for to brace myself so if my foot was feathering the rear brake and I needed the 5th wheel, I mostly ended stomping on the rear brake (to keep me in the carriage) when I needed to move my other foot to the 5th wheel and that was no bueno. But the yoga block makes it super easy, I don’t even think about it, even in really technical obstacles where timing is critical.

[DiamondJubilee]

This was the Pony Sport when we first ordered it from Driving Essentials and picked it up. And a picture of our turn out many years ago with our older small pair of ponies. It does have a groom seat but I don’t like it and would just sit sideways on the bench seat for dressage/cones. It was always exciting holding on sideways during cones. I had to brace my legs against the other bench seat and hold on for dear life (this was before you could stand or speak to the driver).

We usually drove those boys with black leather harness (breastcollars, not full collars for these guys) and brass, but I think it was a tad wet so we went with our chrome zilco that day.

[DiamondJubilee]

As an idea of Pleasure carriages, we currently have 2 Phaetons that we use. One has a grooms seat and can accommodate a single or a pair with some easy change overs. When driving a pair, you always need to have a groom with you. It has back breaks and is around 600lb without any bodies on it. We have used it for strictly Pleasure shows and have placed well with it, even winning some turn out classes at Orleton Farm. We dressed it up with an umbrella basket and our spares kit goes under the seat beside the driver.

Same carriage as a single. Lamps were lit as it was an evening class. And now that I’m looking at this again, I’m not a fan of my turnout or colours here…I should have stayed darker with the jacket and hat in my opinion (technically I shouldn’t even be wearing a hat for the evening class…). I kept a groom with me (and bonus with the breaks) as it was his first indoor show and it was very electric in the ring so I wanted the added safety. But he did tire quite quickly with the heavier pull in the ring (footing is fibre, mostly for jumpers).

This is one of my fav turnouts but I don’t have a better angle of it. I like the navy and with some of the sparkle (it has some navy sequins on the hat and a few on the jacket), it really shone under the spot lights. I was wearing my poppy as well as it was Remembrance Day in Ontario and the little added red popped well I though (as an added bonus). We won the Welsh Pleasure Ladies to Drive in a strong class of 14:

This is another phaeton that we own that we bought used off of FB. Its much lighter, less than 400lb and no groom needed. The front wheels are slightly more narrow than the back wheels so its very handy turning it through cones. It was wooden wheels and no breaks so a bit better suited for Pleasure shows. I have won the Concours D’Elegance with this carriage and turnout. I would love to get lamp brackets for it since we do have lamps. Now that this boy is older and is very steady, I can take this turnout into the indoor show for the evening performance and would love to have light lamps. It has a basket on the back where I keep all my spares items (spares kit, blanket, halter, lead shank etc). The footing in the indoor is heavy and I think my guy would move better with the lighter carriage.

[goodhors]

Well if you are not doing breed shows, disregard my fine harness and lightweight cart advice!

2DogsFarm photos of her cart would be totally correct for local carriage driving shows and Fair classes. Harness would have more substatial straps with a wider saddle that contains a tree to keep weight off the horse spine. Wider breastcollar too, again to spread the load better. With a low headset, consider a V-shaped breastcollar so nothing cuts into horse windpipe with the lower headset. A false martingale helps the breastcollar stay down in place. You don’t need a checkrein of any sort. 2-wheelers have much more shaft weight than 4-wheelers, so a wider harness saddle ‘spreads out the load’ on horse back. Wider is 4" or so with a road cart type vehicle. The very fancy, antique 2-wheelers can be rather heavy, need a gig saddle that is very wide, 6" to best manage the loaded vehicle comfortably.

It might be helpful to you to attend some shows and clinics, see how horses are presented, gaits expected, get some help, before spending any money. Driving folks LOVE helping new drivers!

[2DogsFarm]

@DiamondJubilee

technically I shouldn’t even be wearing a hat for the evening class…)

I must have missed this in the Omnibus.
No hat?
I LOFF my pimped out hats!
Of course, I’ve only shown in outdoor arenas, no lights.

@goodhors My #1 Pet Peeve with off-the-rack mini harness: no treed saddle!
Even when I had my biothane harness custom-made, I got the Deep V breastcollar, but forgot to request the false martingale & a treed saddle
I know I can add the martingale & found a neoprene pad for the saddle that has a gullet space. Not perfect, but better than nothing.

[2tempe]

OP - i showed my QH mare in open driving shows for a number of years. We started out with a basic meadowbrook type 2 wheeler that I got in Lancaster Pa. A couple years later my trainer recommended that we move to a 4 wheel vehicle as they make it easier for horse to turn and the weight is distributed differently. Someone I knew had a lovely pony vehicle; i contacted the maker and got a custom upsized one for my mare. She had “hunter type” movement, was excellent in the reinsmanship classes, cones, and could pin in the pleasure classes at smaller shows.

Pic is from Walnut Hill Show, upstate NY, 1993. We won our obstacle class!