Polite Way To Say No (regarding farrier apprentices)

[TheBrownHorse]

Hi all,

I keep my horse at an “A” show barn, with an incredible UL rider as my trainer, I am beyond blessed in his (and subsequently my) training situation. She allows me to use my own farrier, so while everyone else at the barn uses the “barn farrier”, mine comes to do my horse every 5-6 weeks.

My beloved farrier has been shoeing my horse for nine years. He is an incredible, talented, skillful man, and well trusted and held in high esteem by many, ranking in the top farriers in Nor CA. I have absolutely full faith in his ability, and never second guess his work. In nine years, my horse has (knock on wood) been sound, including every time after he is shod. The only time this horse has been off was when he was a five he popped a splint, and he’s had a couple abscesses, but no major lameness issues, and I attribute that largely to the phenomenal work that my farrier does.

Often, he’ll have people apprentice with him. I’ve never felt weird or questioned this, as stated previously, I trust my farrier quite a lot.

However, yesterday he comes with this guy and I just get a weird feeling from him. In all honesty, I was planning on how to beat this guy up with my lead rope ( )- I just felt uncomfortable with him working on my horse. The guy seemed nice enough, though, and I understand everyone has to learn, and I’ve been fortunate enough in my riding career to have had people let me learn on THEIR horses, and I’m forever grateful for those experiences, but to be honest, I’d prefer to not have my horse be someone’s teacher regarding shoeing. I’m anal and obsessive and fully admit those qualities. So please, take that into account in my question, as perhaps I’m just being over protective.

The apprentice pulled his shoes off, my farrier did almost everything else (though gave the guy a chance to do a bit of cleaning the hoof/trim/ finish the hoof, etc. all of course were checked thoroughly by my farrier). I’m not completely naive when it comes to horse feet and though I couldn’t shoe/trim a horse myself I do know what I’m looking at, and wasn’t excited when this guy was working on my horse. But like I said, I’m anal, protective, and I am also great at catastrophizing most of life so naturally, I do the same with my horse and what could go wrong.

After they were done, my I tacked my horse up for my trainer to “ride”. She just wanted to get on him and hack around a bit so he felt like he had worked that day. Nothing like a big training ride, no jumping, just a little w/t/c. But, he was VERY VERY VERY lame on his RF. I immediately called and texted my farrier, who promptly returned to assess the lameness. My horse seemed to work out of it, and he was lunged as well as jogged out on the hard ground, and he seemed ok. So, who knows.

Today trainer jogged him out and lunged him, and while he jogged fine, he still appeared off on the RF when being lunged.

I will also mention that, as I was lunging my (incredibly scopey, very talented jumper) earlier that morning, he decided to JUMP OUT OF THE INDOOR. On the lunge line. He spooked yanking the line from my hands, and then set himself up and popped over the very large, solid arena fence, and took a little gallop around the property. So, while clearing this fence and running around like a maniac wasn’t exactly difficult for him physically, I’m not ruling it out that he may have tweaked himself during his little escapade.

But it still brings me to this- more than likely, him jumping out of the arena would maybe make him a bit sore from running around but I’m almost positive that he would be 100% sound if he hadn’t gotten his feet done yesterday. This is a very talented, very scopey horse who, while yea, not good jumping out of the arena! I think he would have been fine if not for the new shoes.

The apprentice who was with my farrier yesterday is someone I’ve never met, and I don’t know if I’ll ever meet him again. But, long story short, he made me uncomfortable, and I really don’t want anyone to work on my horse other than my farrier. How to I approach this without offending my farrier? Because as much as I trust him to do my horses feet, I also trust his judgement letting someone else do some of the work, too. But this, it just, it’s not sitting well with me. And, while I also understand my farrier works for me, I like to have a working relationship with my horses care providers, this is not a man I just give a check to and he gets my horse shod, he is obviously very invested in my horses well being and has been like a part of our family over the years.

Sorry for such a long post… TIA

[Equitational]

Everyone always says to trust your gut. It sounds like you got a bad feeling about this guy, not based on his ability, but by his personality or demeanor? Like you don’t feel safe around the guy? I would text your farrier and just voice your concern regarding the new apprentice such as you didn’t feel comfortable around him or got a bad feeling because of x, y, z. Who knows, you may not be the only client who feels the same way about the new apprentice.

PS. My farrier has an assistant and just had an apprentice. Assistant usually pulls the shoes and “pulls the hooves forward” after my farrier nails on shoes. I don’t think the apprentice did much, I’ve only seen him a couple times. His assistant will trim the baby horses or unruly horses, but my farrier knows to do the trims and nailing on shoes on all the show or riding horses. He knows his clients wouldn’t want the other guys doing those jobs…

[FreshAir]

I might text the farrier with “let’s skip the new guy working on the feet next time ok?” Or a lttle humor and flattery … Dobbin likes you best, you must have the magic touch." Or if you are really close to the guy say “where did you get that guy, he creeps me out!” I think he should or would want to know, that his apprentice makes people uncomfortable. In my experience, Apprentice A rides with the farrier on certain days only and there might be other people who ride around with your farrier on other days. Your farrier could just make sure he doesn’t take that guy with him on the days he is going to your place.

[TheBrownHorse]

Kendra-

My farrier did all the nailing, etc. which I was happy about. I certainly would have flipped on the spot if the apprentice had been doing much more than he was, but yea, I feel uncomfortable and now I’m kicking myself wishing I had said something before this guy even so picked my horses foot up. Sigh.

I will work on something to text him/call him. Probably text, I don’t know…

FreshAir- good points, too, humor a must!

[Equitational]

I would send a short text. Start with a compliment, say something like “how you appreciate your farriers work but for some reason, you just got a bad feeling about the new guy. Just wanted to send him an FYI about it”. You don’t have to be super specific unless you want to, heck maybe your farrier might have a hidden bad feeling about the apprentice?

[Highflyer]

I’m not sure I would go into the whole bad feeling thing-- instead I’d just say something like, “This might be me being a little overprotective, but I’d rather you did all the work on Dobbin yourself from here on out. Thanks for understanding and for doing such a great job!”

[NoSuchPerson]

Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t understand what the apprentice could possibly have done to make your horse lame.

I get that you didn’t like the guy and that he set off all kinds of alarm bells in your head. I’m not discounting that and if you don’t want your farrier to bring this guy around again based on the fact that he made you uncomfortable, then that is well within your rights. I’m not questioning this part of your post at all.

But that’s a separate issue from the quality of the shoeing job and whether your horse’s lameness is a result of some mistake that was made by the farrier’s apprentice. If I understand your post correctly, the apprentice did very little of the work and all of that was done under the strict supervision of your farrier. I don’t see how anything he did could cause your horse to be lame.

If you’re going to talk to your farrier about this I think you have to be really careful about what you say. If you say directly or imply that his apprentice lamed your horse, you are, in effect, telling your farrier that you don’t trust his judgment or his ability to properly train and supervise his apprentice. He may not take that very well.

[nashfad]

apprentice

Your horse-----your say so. I am that way. Call me crazy but I do not let anyone work on my horse or even me for that matter…Just say excuse me but I had rather you do this instead of your apprentice.

[Sunflower]

Of course there is always the possibility that the apprentice had nothing to do with the horse being on/off lame. From what you have described, as with the poster above, it is hard to understand what you think the apprentice could have done that could have made the horse lame.

Your description of the horse
a) spooking
b) yanking the lunge line from your hands
c) jumping out of the indoor
d) galloping about loose on the property

suggest 4 different opportunities that the horse might have done something to itself to then turn up somewhat lame.

It could have been something that did not turn up at once after it happened, but later. Muscle soreness can have a delayed onset, for instance, http://www.cavalor.com/us-en/info/news-article/1194/feed-for-thought-the-unsound-horse-is-it-joint-pain-or-muscle-pain and you may be searching for lameness in the hoof when it is actually located at some other source in the horse.

Given all that you have described, it is hard to rule out a possible cause of muscle soreness. That said, you were there to see the events, not me, so you know best about what happened.

But remember muscle soreness can have a 1-3 day onset, per the above link.

Your farrier sounds very conscientious-- returning right away to look at the horse when you called. Did you mention to him the spooking/yanking/jumping/galloping episodes? You say that you think the horse “would have been fine” despite all that and that you blame the shoeing… but you do not give any reason for thinking that.

Is it possible you feel a little bit guilty and defensive about the horse getting away from you, and now being lame, and are looking for someone else who might bear the blame— and have settled on an apprentice that may not have done anything? Is that fair to your own farrier and the apprentice? Yes, your horse, your call on who works on it… but you might want to think through the chain of events, possible sources of lameness, your involvement in these, your own emotional reaction to them, and then think about whether blaming the apprentice is still the conclusion you have reached. If so, then it might then make sense to share your concerns with the farrier. If not, then, not.

[heronponie]

Just talk to your farrier. You’ve known the guy for 9+ years and describe him as family. I can 99% guarantee that he’d rather hear your concerns now rather than stewing, building up resentment, etc. Irrational or not, just tell him.

[butiwantedapony]

I agree that I don’t see how it is possible that the apprentice did anything that could have hurt your horse. From what I can gather all he really did was pull off the old shoes?

I would be more apt to think the horse dos something while ripping the lunge out of your hands, jumping the arena fence, and running around the property.

If the guy gives you the creeps - I think it is totally fair for you to ask that he not work on the horse. But I think you are being unfair in blaming him for making your horse lame in this situation.

[enjoytheride]

I also don’t see how it’s possible the apprentice could have done anything to make the horse sore. You said all he did was pull off the shoes and do a little cleaning under the farrier’s supervision.

Yet you also say your horse jumped out of the arena trailing a lunge line earlier that morning but don’t think that has anything to do with his lameness.

I think that you are WAY overreacting and that your horse possibly hurt himself jumping out of the arena and then running loose dragging a lunge line. If anything, having his leg bent for the shoeing aggravated the already injured leg from the arena jumping incident and that was why he presented lame.

[Lucassb]

[QUOTE=butiwantedapony;8392054]
I agree that I don’t see how it is possible that the apprentice did anything that could have hurt your horse. From what I can gather all he really did was pull off the old shoes?

I would be more apt to think the horse dos something while ripping the lunge out of your hands, jumping the arena fence, and running around the property.

If the guy gives you the creeps - I think it is totally fair for you to ask that he not work on the horse. But I think you are being unfair in blaming him for making your horse lame in this situation.[/QUOTE]

Ditto.

I completely sympathize, as I am also super anal about my horses’ care, and particularly their feet. At one point, I actually “imported” my farrier to do my older horse because he was the only one I trusted after his feet were screwed up by a farrier at a show, and spent 100 days in the stall recovering. So - I get your concern.

But in this case, I really don’t think the apprentice could have made your horse lame just by pulling off the shoes and doing some minor finish work under the supervision of your farrier. It seems far more likely that your horse tweaked something during his adventure on the longe line.

Hope he is completely better very soon!

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=TheBrownHorse;8391655]
Hi all,

I keep my horse at an “A” show barn, with an incredible UL rider as my trainer, I am beyond blessed in his (and subsequently my) training situation. She allows me to use my own farrier, so while everyone else at the barn uses the “barn farrier”, mine comes to do my horse every 5-6 weeks.

My beloved farrier has been shoeing my horse for nine years. He is an incredible, talented, skillful man, and well trusted and held in high esteem by many, ranking in the top farriers in Nor CA. I have absolutely full faith in his ability, and never second guess his work. In nine years, my horse has (knock on wood) been sound, including every time after he is shod. The only time this horse has been off was when he was a five he popped a splint, and he’s had a couple abscesses, but no major lameness issues, and I attribute that largely to the phenomenal work that my farrier does.

Often, he’ll have people apprentice with him. I’ve never felt weird or questioned this, as stated previously, I trust my farrier quite a lot.

However, yesterday he comes with this guy and I just get a weird feeling from him. In all honesty, I was planning on how to beat this guy up with my lead rope ( )- I just felt uncomfortable with him working on my horse. The guy seemed nice enough, though, and I understand everyone has to learn, and I’ve been fortunate enough in my riding career to have had people let me learn on THEIR horses, and I’m forever grateful for those experiences, but to be honest, I’d prefer to not have my horse be someone’s teacher regarding shoeing. I’m anal and obsessive and fully admit those qualities. So please, take that into account in my question, as perhaps I’m just being over protective.

The apprentice pulled his shoes off, my farrier did almost everything else (though gave the guy a chance to do a bit of cleaning the hoof/trim/ finish the hoof, etc. all of course were checked thoroughly by my farrier). I’m not completely naive when it comes to horse feet and though I couldn’t shoe/trim a horse myself I do know what I’m looking at, and wasn’t excited when this guy was working on my horse. But like I said, I’m anal, protective, and I am also great at catastrophizing most of life so naturally, I do the same with my horse and what could go wrong.

After they were done, my I tacked my horse up for my trainer to “ride”. She just wanted to get on him and hack around a bit so he felt like he had worked that day. Nothing like a big training ride, no jumping, just a little w/t/c. But, he was VERY VERY VERY lame on his RF. I immediately called and texted my farrier, who promptly returned to assess the lameness. My horse seemed to work out of it, and he was lunged as well as jogged out on the hard ground, and he seemed ok. So, who knows.

Today trainer jogged him out and lunged him, and while he jogged fine, he still appeared off on the RF when being lunged.

I will also mention that, as I was lunging my (incredibly scopey, very talented jumper) earlier that morning, he decided to JUMP OUT OF THE INDOOR. On the lunge line. He spooked yanking the line from my hands, and then set himself up and popped over the very large, solid arena fence, and took a little gallop around the property. So, while clearing this fence and running around like a maniac wasn’t exactly difficult for him physically, I’m not ruling it out that he may have tweaked himself during his little escapade.

But it still brings me to this- more than likely, him jumping out of the arena would maybe make him a bit sore from running around but I’m almost positive that he would be 100% sound if he hadn’t gotten his feet done yesterday. This is a very talented, very scopey horse who, while yea, not good jumping out of the arena! I think he would have been fine if not for the new shoes.

The apprentice who was with my farrier yesterday is someone I’ve never met, and I don’t know if I’ll ever meet him again. But, long story short, he made me uncomfortable, and I really don’t want anyone to work on my horse other than my farrier. How to I approach this without offending my farrier? Because as much as I trust him to do my horses feet, I also trust his judgement letting someone else do some of the work, too. But this, it just, it’s not sitting well with me. And, while I also understand my farrier works for me, I like to have a working relationship with my horses care providers, this is not a man I just give a check to and he gets my horse shod, he is obviously very invested in my horses well being and has been like a part of our family over the years.

Sorry for such a long post… TIA[/QUOTE]

Call the guy and tell him that’s your preference. He should honor the wishes of a long-time good client with no questions asked. That should be the end of the matter.

[GoodTimes]

I understand where you’re coming from, I had to ask my farrier to stop letting his apprentice shoe my 3 yo, he was barefoot and his feet were slowly turning into pancakes. It wasn’t such an issue until he started undersaddle.
The problem there though was that my farrier was shoeing my trickier horse at the same time so there was less supervision.

In your case I\m doubtful that the apprentice made your horse lame if your farrier was watching over his shoulder the whole time.

[asterix]

If you don’t like the apprentice and don’t want him working on your horse, tell your farrier. Do not imply the apprentice made the horse lame. Seems very unlikely given what you describe he did, and given the antics of the horse prior to that. In any event, there is NO WAY to prove that he caused it and it will not get you anywhere to pursue that path.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Did the apprentice take longer than your regular farrier take longer to get the shoe off the right front? Did he have any trouble getting a nail out? Is the apprentice taller than your farrier, thus bringing the foot further up and bending the knee more?

Any of these can cause temporary lameness. You may want to have that knee and fetlock checked out, just in case something is happening there. Landing from jumps can put a lot of stress on a knee and or fetlock.

[mvp]

I had a horse shod by a great, great farrier at Cornell for a long time. And under his direction, streams of students were assigned the task of taking off shoes or clinching nails and such. Nothing technical was ever done by any of those guys.

I respected my farrier enough to let him manage his staff as he saw fit. It was his shop, his shoeing job and (literally) his name on the shoes. He took responsibility for all of it.

Therefore, I try to give an expert, trustworthy farrier the benefit of the doubt and let him manage his business his way. And in return, I never saw my horse mismanaged by any of the students he had working for him.

I think you are wrong to assign the cause of lameness of your horse on that day to the apprentice. There’s not a clear enough causal connection to justify that. And the “the guy just gives me the creeps” doesn’t seem clear either.

Remember that it takes some time and training to make a great farrier. If you make it hard for your farrier to train the next generation… well… you’d better not complain when you can’t find a good, careful farrier. All that is to say that it’s sometimes the HO’s job to let farriers and vets and others use our horses to teach the coming-up whippersnappers their skills. And if the good ones don’t do it, the lesser ones will… and then what will you have?

But it’s your horse, your money and your farrier to hire or fire as you see fit. If you do want to request a change in how your farrier directs your horse’s shoeing, kindly do that “live”-- either in person and without the apprentice around (best) or on the phone. Don’t deliver bad news or do business by text. That just doesn’t seem honorable, and it sounds like your farrier deserves credit for doing a good job for you. Treat him that way.

[Sunflower]

TBH-- you have posted elsewhere in the forum about your ongoing issues with your own health conditions-- is it possible in the stress of dealing with those you are displacing some frustration and anxiety onto the apprentice that does not belong there? Just as pain can affect horses, so can it too in humans. Sometimes a strong reaction to something ( horse hurts, you are having your own health issues and pain issues) can be connected in ways that are not always obvious on the surface.

[TheBrownHorse]

I do really thank you all for your input.

To be honest, really and truly honest, I was just so bothered by this guy I assumed my horse’s lameness was to do with the him. You guys are right, in that it was…impulsive of me to jump to the conclusion he had everything to do with my horse being off.

As I stated, I’m incredibly anal and like to catasrophize things (well, I don’t enjoy it it’s just a very common occurrence). This is part of the reason I posted, because sometimes I get stuck on one thing and run with it.

I truly felt very uncomfortable around him and when he was working on my horse- so that, in itself, had to/has to be addressed. Regardless of lameness, I felt weird.

To answer Sunflower- Yes, I am having MANY health issues, which is, admittedly, stressing me out beyond belief. Chasing after my horse aggravated MY health, too, and I certainly believe that your point be valid, especially because my horse and I are so close.

Thank you all, again