So you had the vet out and he put hands on your ponies? Examined them? Treated them?
We are trying to help you and your ponies.
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POST 2
To others reading this who are wondering how things are going and to others who search out belching, or colic or other terms mentioned here and seeking info and come across this post.
Re the “GET THAT VET OUT NOW!” statements you might see or hear.
While I am new to these horses and docs … not new to horses. But I had horses many many years ago. Back then colic did not seem to happen as often as it does today (same with many other conditions). When it did … the advice was to walk your horse … keep watch etc. Keep vet posted vet will come when needed (the when needed is often the question)
It was often the horse owner who assisted the vet … horse owners learned to tend to things on their own with the guidance of their vets. Not all things … and not all the time. Every incident and horse varied.
The thinking on colic has changed a bit I think re the walking.
RE our vet, I was trusting their input over the input of many of these posters … I had remembered that is kind how vets were back in the time I had horses. Our current vet has been a vet for many decades, has written about colic etc. I trust his judgement. I trust his vet techs. And now I can say I trust his partners (or at least the one that came out yesterday. They all have plenty of exp with colic.
When partner vet came out yesterday to do the exam … I mentioned some of the alarming posts , mainly to see if this is typical … and was also questioning my own judgment. She just said some people get really alarmed when they hear colic. That is not meant to be a dig, but more so for readers who might be thinking oh my gosh if I don’t get my vet out immediately my horse will die. The statement re it being a miracle if my horses survive is plain outrageous and foolish.
Colic certainly can and is too often fatal … but most colic is not. A great of info on colic can come from your state extension and I also came across a great equine vet site explaining colic I will post later. YES you want to be careful and YES take a better safe than sorry approach … but dont automatically think your horse is going to die if you have a vet who tries to guide you through care rather than come out immediately. I like to think most vets know what they are doing.
I asked the partner vet yesterday at what point does a vet NEED to come out in cases like ours.
She said the only thing she would have done differently is maybe come out a day earlier. I only mean that in THIS case which was we were in close contact with our vet and techs from the start. Lots of messaging and phone calls … at any point if things looked urgent they would have been right out … they are not far away.
I have the office phone and vets cell phone.We have all been more than on top of things.
Since in our case it looks as though this might end up being a chronic issue, I will get a written protocol specific to my horses.
RE statements about MONEY … I have absolutely know idea where this came from or why. What an odd and insane thing! Please think before you post. Why on earth accuse someone of something you know nothing about. Our vet not coming out has nothing to do with money … it has to do with how vet handles colic cases. It just so happens there were several cases this particular week , the thinking is increase in grass sugar this time of year (BUT maybe increase cases were something else … read on). They do not feel it necessary to go out for every single case unless it sounds urgent. In our case, we were in close contact all week … when they heard intervention measures were helping … then they were working. If they were not I am sure they would have come right out. When they had a meeting and decided it was time to send someone out … there feeling was there is something more going on.
In any case, Listen to what your vet says … if you are not comfortable with his or her advice, you can always call around and certain use your state ext vet as a recourse too … ours is really responsive.
HOW HORSES ARE NOW.
Both ponies examined yesterday. Shetland completely normal. Morgan much better better but did lay down once while vet was there. RE the colic both cases were thought to be mild and not urgent … still as I said, this vet said it probably would have been better if someone came out a day earlier just to check.
So Morgans rectal exam showed no impaction or twisting and GI tract look (felt) normal. feces were dry and small but horse in general not dehdrated. BUT there was an enlarged ovary so it is entirely possible this was is a contributing factor. Could be hormonal … either due to cycling or tumor. So that is being looked at … for now via bloodwork and we will go from there. Stomach was also examined and found to be normal. Mineral oil administered.
Now there is still the issue of why did this happen to begin with … why shortly after exposure to that newer grass both ponies get sick. She looked at the new area and agreed that was pretty small. She also thought our pasture over all looked good … not too lush but we just dont know. I showed her all of the mushroom residue I mentioned earlier and that whole thing is still a possibilty though the vet says this type of thing is very unlikely. Labs to look at kidney and liver values being done as well.
MUSHROOMS
We have a huge increase in mushrooms this year … I mean HUGE. More than I have ever seen. In general, during the years there is an increase in mushrooms, there is also an increase is poisonings. Horses will not typically eat mushrooms, and I am not thinking they did … but right now there is a ton of slimy residue on the new grass. The quesiton is if those were toxic mushrooms, is the decayed residue toxic?
So both regular vet and partner vet thinks this type of thing is unlikely but partner vet still looking at liver and kidney function. Now our State ext vet … she has a different opinion. She feels certainly it could be the culprit since two ponies effected within hours of each other … also the sudden onset of exposure. We will be sending in samples for analysis.
You will hear read horses will general not eat things that are bad for them including mushrooms. But equine poisoning does occur! I think often times with colic is it is so common … but folks just accept not knowing a cause. I don’t typically settle for not knowing why something happens and will typically look for reasons. Since colic can be fatal and at least super painful, I will continue to seek cause. I will not settle for simply saying grass being cause until we rule out toxicity and now hormonal causes.
THE PLAN
For now soaked hay, smaller amounts more frequent. Maybe return to soaked hay pellets tomorrow (if I am feeling brave). No pasture until I kill off the grass. Will fence in a smaller area and cover grass with tarps and rocks … close to new run in shed. Will take girls for walks several times daily … while the walking thing is not advice as much anymore, I do it simply because inactivity is not good and activity in general can help with motility.
Antacid several times a day.
Simeth and Banamine as needed. I will say this about banamine, this newer vet feels banamine should be given sooner rather than later. I had given that first day when she was very uncomfortable but because she kept getting better, I did not give again. When she relapsed Wed, I gave simeth first but she was better within an hour so did not give Banamine … so that is something else I might do differently.
NO MORE MUSHROOMS. From now on I will be picking out mushrooms as they come up.
Had lots of bloodwork done and will wait to see what if anything that shows.
This morning both girls good. Everyone eager to get back to normal.
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Yes, see post 2
Helping someone is good … but some folks need to be a little kinder in posting or else you end up hurting rather than helping.
And for goodness sake … to posters posting incorrect accusations … please don’t do this to people.
Re getting the Vet out sooner/at all.
I worked in an ER animal clinic.
My vets would absolutely not ever give advice over the phone, as there is no way to differentiate, over the phone, potential issues or the degree of illness… and it sets the Vet up for all kinds of trouble if they advise one thing that makes the animal worse or if the animal suffers and declines through lack of attention.
In this case over the phone there was no way to tell a colic that will resolve on it’s own from one that is due to a twist or impaction.
Deciding to not get the Vet out is a crapshoot. You might be right and things will work out through walking… but what if you’re wrong?
That is, I imagine, where many come to the ‘Vet out now!’ [at day 2 and 3] exclamation.
And for me, the bottom line is it doesn’t hurt for the Vet to come out and see that all is fine… but it can hurt for them to not come out if they might note something that helps the horse get better sooner.
The money thing came in as potential reason why you were choosing to not get the Vet out because in all your posts you offered absolutely no reason for the Vet not coming out.
I’m sure had you cited it people would have suggested helpful options like CareCredit, etc.
Personally I don’t know any horse Vets who would have not wanted to come out before yours did. That’s my experience, and the reason I imagine others are also alarmed at the delay in a Vet seeing the horses for themselves, to judge for themselves what the situation is. You say you trust your Vets judgment, but I ask you what are they judging if they are not seeing the animal in person? Your own observations and words… which I’ve seen in too many cases of owners assessing their own animals to be incomplete, or not observant enough. Again, that’s my experience with lots of animals and owners.
I am glad they are doing better, and I hope the improvement continues.
Having lost my first horse to a colic that he suffer through some of the night/early morning with… and my second one dying in front of my eyes from EHV-1 Neuro as the Vet raced to get there… I will always lean on the side of getting professional Vet help ‘too soon’ rather than even a minute too late.
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I just re-read every post on this thread and did not find anything that was accusatory or blaming or harsh or unkind given the ‘situation’. Lots of CAPS and exclamation points – yes, and the word ‘neglect’ once.
But you have to take into account ‘our’ frustration when you come here with potentially life threatening colics that go on for days with no real explanation for that from you, other than you’re in contact with your vet by phone.
Many of us here have had horses that died from colic, myself included. So we’re more apt to stress the importance of getting a vet out. And if we have to YELL to be heard by you, then we will.
It wasn’t just one poster who said a vet needs to be helping. It was all of us. And not just ‘helping’ but making an actual appearance to examine your horses. This IS the correct advice. No one is arguing with you. We’re just telling you that certain colics can’t be cured by phone – nor by wait and see – nor by banamine – nor by wetting hay – nor by all the TLC in the world.
If you were/are satisfied with treating colic by phone, and believe in your ‘by phone’ veterinarian, then why perpetuate a 5 page thread – one in which you’re looking for some kind of solution to a dreaded disease that also can’t be cured by the experiences we’ve had with colic?
At some point in threads like this — where the OP either glosses over a horse health problem or takes a stand that is a bit baffling or seemingly wants to argue or expects a different outcome by treating the problem the exact same way for days – participating COH members will get testy because HORSES are the priority, not the OP’s feelings or ego.
I find it odd – for lack of a better word-- that Instead of UPDATING us on the condition of your horses, you opted instead to berate COH members for their alleged harsh treatment of ‘others’ seeking input or help, etc. etc. etc.
Now your own thread has become something else: not about your horses.
Edited to add: In the time it took me to write this I see you DID have the vet out. Great! 
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Listen, I understand your frusteration in this case … can you not see mine? As you know colic is a scary thing so one becomes a bit anxious and sleep deprived… I have been in close contact all week with vet. Very frequent contact. The vet has decades experience of dealing with colic. He has written about it etc. He does not feel it nessecary to immediately go out to every colic case called in and guides horse owners through it … will come out if things not improving, get worse or goes on for a certain amount of time. Yesterday when I asked other vet about what is typical here (based on some of your posts … which had me second guessing myself and my vet … the vet said some vets base it on clients comfort level.
I have had medical training (both human and animal) … and as I have said, in the past the vets I had worked with taught owners what do in certain situation. The way my current vet handles things did not seem that unusual to me … so I have vets office all week guiding me through and posters YELL as you say to do this or that. So I am trying real hard to just listen to and vets advice … you know being a vet and all and having all that exp … but I also have you all YELLing as you say, what we are doing is not enough or neglectful … well that just adds to anxiety and stress and does nothing to help. It certainly is not helping the horses.
I have been exhausted all week doing nightly checks. I have been doing such much for these girls … to be accused of neglect because I am following my vets advice and not the posters … can you really not see my frusteration here??? Imagine your vet who you trust helping you through something and the having folks say these things to you:
Here are some quotes from this thread:
“WE can’t help your horses – only you can.”
" I cannot believe the ‘best Vet in the State’ would not have gotten out to see the horse by now, unless owner is putting them off, and just stringing us along…SMH.
Edited to add, I am hoping both equines survive, but if they do, it will be a miracle considering the not so benign neglect"
“The fact that they have not been seen does place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the owner.”
“If they are still alive, it is by the grace of God, not because of anything you have done, since you’ve not done the single most important thing which is to get a Vet out to see them.”
“Beginning to wonder if there are really horses involved here.”
“Most definitely something is just not right about the situation. My suspicion is that the OP doesn’t have the money to get the vet out. Or is very young and parents won’t get the vet out.”
Again, I have been working day and night for these horses WITH A VETS HELP. I have been trusting my vet and staff all week. Can you not see that being accused of neglect … being of accused of not having the money to get vet out … … or being young etc or folks saying things like it will only be a miracle if the horses survive due to my neglect … etc … NONE of these things are truths … can you really not see how saying these things, untruthful things, can be hurtful or just add to the stress to someone who is already anxious enough??? I now have three vets on board … .
I am really perplexed by all of this and probably will not come back after this post.
Also, my expression of frustration is NOT just what some have said here, it is based on what some posters of these boards and THIS thread have said or done to others as well. I have read through numerous threads and it seems as though some folks think it is ok to be so harsh, disrespectful and unkind to others. I have been on many other forums for both human health and animal … but I have never seen anything like what I have seen here. It is depressing.
For the last time … many folks come to these forums sometimes for your help, sometimes just support …sometimes answers … and yes sometimes advice … but my goodness don’t come down so hard of someone who is not doing exactly what you say they should do … (again this is not just about colic but other threads I have seen of posters doing or saying similar to others)
Danacat, you said
“Now your own thread has become something else: not about your horses.”
ME:
Yes it has … this seems to happen a lot.
Another one of my threads where I was looking for input on another health issue became an argument that had nothing to do with me or my horse.
Thank you to all that have helped.
I am not going to come back to this thread and probably will not start anymore threads… but feel free to PM if you have any questions or are wondering about update on these horses.
OP, you were not slammed for seeking advice. You were, unfortunately, not taking the advice. That is what had me, and many others, believe that we were witness to an animal neglect case unfolding. My, and others’ alarm over the situation was based upon that, and our concern that you were shrugging off the advice being offered.
So, now you know that colic is not something to take lightly, and that it is generally regarded as good horse-keeping to get the Vet out sooner, not later. That is good news, that you finally got the Vet out, several days later than the majority of us on the forum would have.
Half of written communication are the words that are typed. The other half is the inflection with which you read them. I offered up that perhaps money was an issue BECAUSE of the neglect post. Hey, maybe there are other legit reasons that this kid can’t get a vet out. You do know that we horrible people on this board have helped with issues like that, right? At this point I’m rather sorry I tried to defend you.
Not every colic is an emergency. I am dealing with frequent gas colic in horse that has not one but three vets scratching their heads. The difference is that my horse has been evaluated by the three vets during episodes. I will stand behind my statement that treating colic over the phone on an unknown horse is irresponsible.
You treated symptoms rather than having a vet come out to locate a cause. That is not a treatment choice most of us are comfortable with. I got my first horse in 1969 in a town where the population was 800. You better believe we doctored our own animals because the closest vet wasn’t close. But I don’t continue to do it because I don’t HAVE to and I want the best that be provided for my horses as quickly as possible.
MY personal problem with your approach was that you had no no known cause for the episodes, therefore it could have been impaction or something else that was going to need vet treatment and you always rule out the worst first so that the animal doesn’t needlessly suffer multiple bouts of pain. You mentioned the horse has an enlarged ovary and that could very well be a contributing factor. How would you have diagnosed and treated the ovary yourself? Or were the people on this board supposed to diagnose and treat it for you through anecdotes and jingles.
I am confused as to what the heck you expected and wanted that you didnt get. Everyone was happy to to give you stories and causes in our own animals until all of your follow up posts detailed a horse that was still ill. I can’t believe you wanted us to answer a post like “the Morgan is down again” with "well when my horse went down for the fourth time I didn’t call my vet but instead I fed scrambled eggs and that took care of the problem. ". It is ludicrous to think that every subsequent post wasn’t going to say call your vet to examine your horse.
I dont see tons of people being rude to people on this board. I had one person use wording that I thought was out of line with me. ONE. It was someone who didn’t have all the information and I took that opportunity to provide that information very strongly and acknowledged that I didn’t appreciate it but I didn’t lie down in the middle of the aisle and throw a tantrum and diss the whole board.
I also stand behind my statement that something about this seems odd. You first reported a possible choke episode for which there was no vet exam, and then started with mushrooms. You thought your horses ingested a toxic substance and you didn’t have a vet out? Then you had multiple colic episodes for which you didn’t have a vet out. With any ONE of those episodes just about everyone on this board would have had a vet do a once over to be on the safe side, ESPECIALLY with new horses.
That said, I hope the horses make a full recovery and that the ovary does not turn out to be a serious problem.
As as far as the members of this board knowing nothing about you, I differ in that opinion and think you have done a more than adequate job of showing us who you are. You are comfortable with your ability to care for them, comfortable with letting your horses tough it out rather than provide even a vet exam and so intolerant of opinions that differ from your own that you threaten to remove yourself from a group of people who don’t know you and cry out to the powers that be to stop us. If anyone here has a less than favorable opinion of you, it is from information you have provided.
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Second Star To The Right, this is the best post on this entire thread. Kudos to you for explaining things so well!
There are an awful lot of threads like this of late, sick horse with bizarre or very serious symptoms, absent vet, clueless but vehement owner. Every time it gets to the bottom of the page it’s bumped by either the original poster or a certain poster that seems very interested in these particular threads. My guess is something is pandemic in the air, or someone is bored and playing games.
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@Jjb One thing I will say is in my many years of experience, it is unusual for a competent vet not to hands on examine and palpate a horse at the beginning of colic to get a base line idea of the symptoms to gauge future changes by.
There are many significant details gleaned in an thorough exam that add up to a correct and timely diagnosis and save animals unnecessary suffering.
In my area of the world, not to personally go to the farm and examine the sick horse is very close to malpractice.
Where I live caring competent vets never, ever, ‘phone it in’ unless the client requests that specific level of care.
But I do know that in other places where vets are few and far between and many miles separate them from their patients… the phone, and the owner’s relayed info are the only symptom gathering tools available.
Sorry, other voices became so strident, but please know that it comes from a place of wanting a good outcome for you and your horses.
Sending you many loud healthy horse belly jingles! [Said jingles can be used on ponies as well as horses]
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@sdlbredfan I appreciate the compliment. I rely heavily on this board with an enormously complicated horse. I appreciate every single word even if they are on rare occasion ill informed or a little harsh. People here are passionate about horses and they speak with passion and that doesn’t upset me. I’m old and am not of the Church that thinks every single sentence must contain a qualifier to make it poetic.
I would be a veritable nut job without the support I get on this board. (I’m pretty close anyway so every little bit helps). :). But I seriously appreciate all of you.
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I love this sentence!
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I do think that sometimes newer owners rely to heavily on boards but I have much sympathy for the very rural board members who can’t get a vet out. I live in an area where there is one vet to rule them all and if he’s gone you’re looking at vets more than an hour away many of which won’t travel to our area. There were five. Two stopped seeing large animals because their small animal practice grew so large one stopped because she is older and not strong enough anymore one retired and one stopped doing after hour calls. So I have a hard time not giving some credit to people when they say they can’t get a vet for a week. Heck, I called one who has actually seen my horse and explained my regular vet was out of the country (I’m pretty sure I paid for that European vacation) and she said “well, I will if have to but it will cost you dearly”. WTH? Those vets do exist. And unless my horse is dying she won’t get another call from me.
But when the vet is down the street and there are 100 excuses as to why they can’t come out or the horse won’t load etc etc. it does tend to make you scratch your head. Vets don’t always have all the answers but A good exam can at least rule things out and help focus on a specific treatment.
There are some of us who want to bypass the rest of this thread and just want to know if the horses are doing better…Would someone be so kind?
Copied from post #98
HOW HORSES ARE NOW.
Both ponies examined yesterday. Shetland completely normal. Morgan much better better but did lay down once while vet was there. RE the colic both cases were thought to be mild and not urgent … still as I said, this vet said it probably would have been better if someone came out a day earlier just to check.
So Morgans rectal exam showed no impaction or twisting and GI tract look (felt) normal. feces were dry and small but horse in general not dehdrated. BUT there was an enlarged ovary so it is entirely possible this was is a contributing factor. Could be hormonal … either due to cycling or tumor. So that is being looked at … for now via bloodwork and we will go from there. Stomach was also examined and found to be normal. Mineral oil administered.
Now there is still the issue of why did this happen to begin with … why shortly after exposure to that newer grass both ponies get sick. She looked at the new area and agreed that was pretty small. She also thought our pasture over all looked good … not too lush but we just dont know. I showed her all of the mushroom residue I mentioned earlier and that whole thing is still a possibilty though the vet says this type of thing is very unlikely. Labs to look at kidney and liver values being done as well.
MUSHROOMS
We have a huge increase in mushrooms this year … I mean HUGE. More than I have ever seen. In general, during the years there is an increase in mushrooms, there is also an increase is poisonings. Horses will not typically eat mushrooms, and I am not thinking they did … but right now there is a ton of slimy residue on the new grass. The quesiton is if those were toxic mushrooms, is the decayed residue toxic?
So both regular vet and partner vet thinks this type of thing is unlikely but partner vet still looking at liver and kidney function. Now our State ext vet … she has a different opinion. She feels certainly it could be the culprit since two ponies effected within hours of each other … also the sudden onset of exposure. We will be sending in samples for analysis.
You will hear read horses will general not eat things that are bad for them including mushrooms. But equine poisoning does occur! I think often times with colic is it is so common … but folks just accept not knowing a cause. I don’t typically settle for not knowing why something happens and will typically look for reasons. Since colic can be fatal and at least super painful, I will continue to seek cause. I will not settle for simply saying grass being cause until we rule out toxicity and now hormonal causes.
THE PLAN
For now soaked hay, smaller amounts more frequent. Maybe return to soaked hay pellets tomorrow (if I am feeling brave). No pasture until I kill off the grass. Will fence in a smaller area and cover grass with tarps and rocks … close to new run in shed. Will take girls for walks several times daily … while the walking thing is not advice as much anymore, I do it simply because inactivity is not good and activity in general can help with motility.
Antacid several times a day.
Simeth and Banamine as needed. I will say this about banamine, this newer vet feels banamine should be given sooner rather than later. I had given that first day when she was very uncomfortable but because she kept getting better, I did not give again. When she relapsed Wed, I gave simeth first but she was better within an hour so did not give Banamine … so that is something else I might do differently.
NO MORE MUSHROOMS. From now on I will be picking out mushrooms as they come up.
Had lots of bloodwork done and will wait to see what if anything that shows.
This morning both girls good. Everyone eager to get back to normal.
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Thank you. I should have read all the posts but…it just seemed so frustrating. I am so happy for OP that things turned around. I will watch for updates on the lab work.
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