Pop Rocks Users Check In

[stryder]

[QUOTE=KrazyTBMare;7021282]

So what has everyone been doing as far as maint. dosing esp for more highly prone horses?[/QUOTE]

My mare has been on one packet per day for about 2 years. I know this isn’t good, but it was better than the alternative. She internalizes everything. I addressed every possible management issue. A few months ago she started acting ulcery again. Her manure was more like a cow pattie, smelled bad and was an odd shade of green. Irritable and reactive. I started reading posts here on CoTH that suggested people were tying hind gut problems to long-term omeprazole use.

We are getting ready to start weaning her off the omeprazole. Here’s what we’ve been doing to get ready:
About 60 days ago, started her on this:
https://www.standardprocess.com/Products/Veterinary-Formulas/Equine-GI-Support
to help rehabilitate her hind gut. Within a week, she started calming, her poop started improving. Now she’s less irritable, will stand quietly (usually) in the cross ties, is less reactive … all good.
About 30 days ago we started her on LMF Digest 911 - a great pre- and pro-biotic with biomoss.

Next week we’re going to start reducing the BPR. There are 3/8 of a teaspoon of product. We’re going to reduce it by 1/8 of a teaspoon every 14 days.

Is all of this overkill? Maybe. But after nearly losing her once, I’m willing to take whatever time is necessary to give this the best chance of success. The barn staff is all in. Our vet thinks this plan is reasonable, given her history.

YMMV and good luck!!

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=stryder;7021357]
I started reading posts here on CoTH that suggested people were tying hind gut problems to long-term omeprazole use. [/QUOTE]

I’m one of the people who posted about it. $10K in colic bills later, I now use omeprazole (in either form - Gastroguard or BPR) for short periods of time only.

The pop rocks had my TB looking super. He was cleaning up his food better than he ever had, and was in fantastic condition that summer. But 4 months into being on the maintenance dose he colicked badly and then did the same thing 6 weeks later before we finally put two and two together and figured out that the omeprazole was causing hind gut ulcers and then voila…gas colic.

So I pulled him off of omeprazole and put him on apple cider vinegar (1 oz twice a day), Succeed, and probiotics (Equerry’s Choice - similar to LMF 911) in addition to the Glanzen (flax-based supplement) that he’s always been on. He looks as good this summer as he did last summer. Eventually I’d like to move him to oat bran in place of the Succeed, but I’m still gun shy after the hospital stints. I still use Gastroguard at shows, but I keep him on the other supplements mentioned and also add SmartDigest (or SmartGut…can’t ever remember which it is).

[stryder]

PNWjumper, is your horse’s attitude different now vs. when you decided to pull him off omeprazole? And do you add the SmartDigest/SmartGut product only at shows? Or is he on that all time?
TIA

[deltawave]

Little update on ordering–ran out of mine (too many people “borrowing” 8 or 10 packs) and made another order, which was delivered in exactly 9 days.

[fanfayre]

PNW- After following your ordeal, and having to put my mare on GG/BPR I ordered the Equishure from KER. What a difference!!! Softer, easier manure and much more quantity than before the BPR. Equishure is specifically designed for hind-gut.
After 2 containers of the Equishure I read the ingredients- common baking ingredients, so I’m making my own. I haven’t killed her yet, and she’s still has the positive behavioral and temperament changes from the GG/BPR, even though I’m only giving BPR for “special occasions” now. May be something to look into if you ever have to return to GG/BPR.
I may tweak my home-made version of Equishure to incorporate more gastric-helpful ingredients too. HTH

[horsecatcher]

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;7021376]
I’m one of the people who posted about it. $10K in colic bills later, I now use omeprazole (in either form - Gastroguard or BPR) for short periods of time only.

The pop rocks had my TB looking super. He was cleaning up his food better than he ever had, and was in fantastic condition that summer. But 4 months into being on the maintenance dose he colicked badly and then did the same thing 6 weeks later before we finally put two and two together and figured out that the omeprazole was causing hind gut ulcers and then voila…gas colic.

So I pulled him off of omeprazole and put him on apple cider vinegar (1 oz twice a day), Succeed, and probiotics (Equerry’s Choice - similar to LMF 911) in addition to the Glanzen (flax-based supplement) that he’s always been on. He looks as good this summer as he did last summer. Eventually I’d like to move him to oat bran in place of the Succeed, but I’m still gun shy after the hospital stints. I still use Gastroguard at shows, but I keep him on the other supplements mentioned and also add SmartDigest (or SmartGut…can’t ever remember which it is).[/QUOTE]

What makes you think the horse had hind gut ulcers? If the horse had hind gut ulcers, what makes you think the pop rocks was the cause of hind gut ulcers?

[the_other_mother]

Interesting thread, I had never heard of pop rocks before. I use the Gastro Guard but would sure like to save some $, where would I order the pop rocks from?

[fanfayre]

[QUOTE=the_other_mother;7022851]
Interesting thread, I had never heard of pop rocks before. I use the Gastro Guard but would sure like to save some $, where would I order the pop rocks from?[/QUOTE]
www.abler.com
You want to order Abprazole™ “sachets of enteric coated blue colored granules”

[deltawave]

How does “omeprazole causes hindgut ulcers” gain the status of “voila’”? Is there some revelation out there I’ve missed on the action of omeprazole in the hindgut? And how, by the way, are hindgut ulcers diagnosed?

[stryder]

Deltawave, this is some of what I found when I started trying to figure out why my mare seemed so “ulcery” when she was on the preventive dose of BPR and I’d done everything I could to manage her environment:
"When grain gets to the hindgut the breakdown, (besides volatile fatty acids) produces gas and lactic acid. Lactic acid makes the hindgut more acid and creates and environment where the “good” bacteria die off and release endotoxins in the process. Endotoxins are poisons generated by the death of the bacteria. The good bacteria are then replaced by “bad” bacteria that can thrive in the more acid environment created by the lactic acid. The “bad” bacteria damage the intestinal mucosa (lining) allowing the toxins to enter the bloodstream. It is common to see picky eating, leaving food, becoming agitated or grouchy. The discomfort can also start horses to cribbing, weaving or stall walking. Other signs and consequences are bouts of mild diarrhea and/or colic that can, of course, progress to more dire consequences. "

The above quote is a small section from this:
http://www.drkerryridgway.com/articles/article-ulcers.php

[deltawave]

All well and good, but I’m still puzzled as to how omeprazole could possibly be implicated in causing hindgut ulcers. By the time the intestinal contents reach the hindgut, acid’s role is LONG over with in terms of the beginning stages of digestion, and any remaining acids from the stomach (omeprazole or no omeprazole) have been neutralized by bile and pancreatic secretions.

Grain is not digested by acid, but rather by enzymes in the small intestine.

[Right_on_Target]

My generally quiet and lazy TB had been getting progressively spookier and after a ship out lesson he refused to eat grain for 2 days. We’d had some saddle fit problems that distressed him as well.

I started him on Pop Rocks and his behavior changed in about 2 days. He went from fidgeting in crossties to snoozing. He stopped shying at stupid things and he just seemed happier. He gained some weight too, but it was hard to tell if the spring grass caused that or the medication. We also shipped out and he seemed calmer and ate fine that night.

I have no idea if he had ulcers or not, but the symptoms are pointing in that direction. I’m a huge fan of pop rocks. I put him on a 3 pack/day treatment for a month, and then I tapered to 2 for a week and then 1 for a week. After that I put him on Ugard and I’m hoping that he’ll remain happy and healthy. I plan to give him pop rocks when we ship out or show and I’ll give him some if he starts showing any symptoms of ulcers again.

Pop Rocks rock!

I’ve gotten 2 shipments- one came in less than a week and the other took 12 days.

[KrazyTBMare]

I had been considering switching to smart gut but have heard of some issues with it interfering with magnesium I feed. Regardless of the opinions on the mag, I know the dramatic changes it has caused for the better for my horses so doing something that will adversely effect its ability to be absorbed is not an option.

Has anyone tried smart gut and ugard? Similar results? FWIW I had my mare on U7 liquid for over a year and that is what finally got her over her eating issues ( not cleaning up her meals, etc) If the ugard will work just as well I might go to that. Just so nervous to do something different since she is in such a good place right now but have heard not to feed omeprezole long term.

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=deltawave;7023031]
How does “omeprazole causes hindgut ulcers” gain the status of “voila’”? Is there some revelation out there I’ve missed on the action of omeprazole in the hindgut? And how, by the way, are hindgut ulcers diagnosed?[/QUOTE]

It’s the consensus of the two vet clinics that my guy ended up at…after seeing more cases of the same since they initially were not on board with the idea that the colics were related to the omeprazole (and, in fact, dismissed the idea completely at that time). My vet (not part of a hospital/group) has been saying that was the case from early on, and is why I went the route I did with treatment. “Voila” may be a bit casual, but in my guy’s case it’s believed by several competent professionals to be the case. The [oversimplified] working theory from all 3 vets/clinics is that decreasing acid in the stomach allowed more [less digested] food into the hindgut which led to acidosis in the hind gut and hind gut ulcers, which in turn led to the gas colics. We pulled the omeprazole out of his diet (the only change in his feed aside from hay to hay variations, btw, in the 8 years I’ve had him) and he’s been fine since coming off of it. As a side note, putting him back on omeprazole for a week at a time hasn’t been problematic to date.

In regards to the diagnosis of hind gut ulcers…we don’t definitively know if he had them or not, though it fit with the right dorsal displacement colic. One of the Succeed tests they did in one hospital came back positive for HGU, but those tests are, of course, notoriously inaccurate. My vet tried retesting, but her little test kit had expired quite a while before and didn’t work. It didn’t matter much to us since we were sure that the omeprazole was the cause. So even if he did have HGU, the theory was that it was a side effect of the omeprazole and not a systemic issue.

Stryder - my guy’s attitude is the same now as it was on the BPR. The big difference between before and after, though, was solely in his attitude about food. He was always good under saddle. On the BPR he nickered for his grain and ate it immediately, he’s doing the same now with Succeed, Apple Cider Vinegar, and probiotics in place of the BPR. The other big difference was his focus and rideability at shows, but I can’t compare now since I still put him on Gastroguard at shows.

[deltawave]

The [oversimplified] working theory from all 3 vets/clinics is that decreasing acid in the stomach allowed more [less digested] food into the hindgut

But acid is neutralized in the first part of the small intestine anyway, regardless of how acidic the stomach contents are. (or are not) And as I said, digestion of concentrate does not require acid, but rather the slew of enzymes in the small intestine, which don’t function in an acid environment and REQUIRE neutralization of stomach acid by the pancreas/bile system.

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=deltawave;7024385]
But acid is neutralized in the first part of the small intestine anyway, regardless of how acidic the stomach contents are. (or are not) And as I said, digestion of concentrate does not require acid, but rather the slew of enzymes in the small intestine, which don’t function in an acid environment and REQUIRE neutralization of stomach acid by the pancreas/bile system.[/QUOTE]

Well, my science years involved parasites, not digestive systems (or mammals, for that matter), so I’m not going to be able to provide the detail you need on the workings of the stomach/hind gut. All I can add is that there was no discussion of acid passing into the stomach, or acid at all. The comments as I understand them were that excessive food in the hind gut can result in a low pH…acidosis (and I’m assuming that can come about as a result of the enzymes/fermentation of the food in the hind gut, as opposed to the production of acid).

Regardless of the modality, there are a number of horses out there who have suffered from bad gas colics while on maintenance doses of omeprazole. I found a great support group of people when I posted about my guy’s issues. And while a group of people online can hardly be considered anything other than anecdotal, there are other people who had been through the same thing with similar backgrounds (long term non-colicky horses colicking badly multiple times while on omeprazole and then not colicking again once it’s pulled out of the diet). I would have made different decisions had I known that long term maintenance level use could have problems…mainly, I would have gone back to my prior summer’s use of GG/BPR where my guy only got it when he hauled away from home.

[deltawave]

Well, omeprazole can cause diarrhea in humans, so I’d certainly buy “generalized intestinal upset” as a potential side effect! Horses have a lot more “gut” than we have. Perhaps some horses (like some people) are simply intolerant of the stuff.

[Lokismommah]

Thinking about trying these for my horse, wonderring if anybody thinks they’d be effective. He’s a 4 year old mustang, idk if he has ulcers but he is incredibally girthy, so much so that I’ve never really been able to properly saddle him. He was captured last december, which I would classify as pretty stressful and ulcer inducing and I’ve had him since april. He was doing very good (other than being so insanely girthy that the first time I put a surcingle on I wasn’t able to take it off for two days due to him bucking so badly) until we moved him into a smaller stall. Then he just went nuts, spooking at everything, he broke down the gate and got out once because my mom scared him with a tarp. He’s back in a bigger stall now and he’s getting herbs (valerian and vervain) that seem to be helping calm him slightly, but it could also just be from being in the bigger stall. He’s still very spooky though, on strange people walking by, people carrying bags or buckets, saddling other horses outside his stall, etc etc, and is very VERY girthy as mentioned. Working with it has been helping slightly but I still cant do more than rub him with my hand if I try to put a rope around him he goes nuts and then my progress is set back. He eats his grain every morning although not very thoroughly and idk if he just doesnt like the taste of the herbs when he gets to the bottom and he doesn’t ever seem super interested in his hay. He eats it but is plenty happy to leave several times before he finishes the same amount everybody else finished a couple hours ago. He did just get his teeth done about a day ago and they were pretty bad, he had ulcers on one side, which could be contributing to his lack of interest in his hay. He was super skinny when I got him which is why I had originally ruled out ulcers because he put weight back on insanely quickly in the first couple of months he was here and his coat was super shiny and sleek once i brushed out his winter coat. But he is not well muscled even still, he isnt skinny he just doesnt have muscle on his shoulders hips or back. And his coat is pretty dull and crappy looking this winter. Ans yesturday he was chewiing on his water tank. I dont know if that had something to do with his teeth but he has an automatic waterer and was grabbing the edge of the tank and scraping his teeth along the plastic. He gave the hole sunbursts from scraping the plastic all around it. So basically, sorry for the long post, i dunno if I should try the pop rocks or if maybe he is just naturally a spaz, what do you think?

[StormyDay]

I would start a new thread this ones pretty old.
abler is pretty well known of COTH as being a good place to get cheap ulcer meds.
But in this case it sounds more like he isn’t trained well around people yet. I have a mustang, got him from the BLM, and they are 100% feral when you get them. He may just need more training.

[Lokismommah]

@StormyDay

I would start a new thread this ones pretty old.
abler is pretty well known of COTH as being a good place to get cheap ulcer meds.
But in this case it sounds more like he isn’t trained well around people yet. I have a mustang, got him from the BLM, and they are 100% feral when you get them. He may just need more training.

He isn’t scared of people. He’s a tad wary of strangers when they go to pet him but I can do anything I want and other people can too as long as they give it a second. His main thing is just the girthiness. But i will start a new thread idk how this works i just created an account to post that lol