Positive Reinforcement Training

[S1969]

@myamego

@Bluey What I am trying to achieve in my training is building a willing, happy equine partner by giving them the option to tell me “yes” or “no”, and I believe that positive reinforcement is the best way to do that. It may not be the most conventional way to train, or the fastest, but I believe that giving the horse a choice without using force or punishment is essential is creating the most eager and relaxed horse possible.

Yeah, good luck with that. Sorry to be sarcastic, but just being realistic.

If I give my horse the choice to say “yes” or “no” to working harder…it’s not very likely that they will chose yes. They are animals, not human athletes who care if their topline is round, step underneath themselves properly, or have a hack winning trot.

Training and working in a kind and fair manner is perfectly possible. You don’t have to use “force” (meaning whips and spurs), or “punishment” (meaning pain). But expecting an animal to choose to work for a non-food reward like a pat on the neck…is not really realistic. They are animals. For many horses, the reward they want most of all is to be done.

Horses work FOR US because we compel them to do so. We ask, then tell, then insist. We don’t really let them decide whether to comply with our requests…because then you would be sitting on the back of a 1000lb animal with no control. Why would anyone want that?

[sophie]

I agree with Bluey and 1969.

Interesting discussion, though.

Positive reinforcement in the saddle, to me, is using your voice, a scratch or a light pat, to reward your horse. But most of the under saddle training is actually done with what is now labeled as “negative reinforcement” ( I don’t like that term).

Do people actually ride with a clicker, to use it under saddle and click when they obtain correct movement / behavior? T

[Bluey]

Just clearing a point here, whips and spurs are but mere tools.
Whips are an extension of our arms, spurs of our legs.
Any tool can be used properly or sadly, also misused.

I do agree wholly that any interaction is based on first, be understanding, kind and fair.
That is what we have to base our actions on, no question there.

[longlanefarm]

OP There are obviously a lot of naysayers and pessimists re: positive reinforcement. I would take it with a grain of salt. Do what feels right for you and your horse. I think it’s clear you have your horse’s best interest at heart which is most important.

What’s wrong with wanting to have a conversation with your horse and allow them to take part in that discussion?

@S1969 I think reading some posts from The Willing Equine would give you some answers to your questions. You don’t have to employee this method in your own practice but I think it’s good to try to understand it first. And again, I’m not a die-hard +R person necessarily. However, I am open minded and appreciative of science based animal training techniques.

I do find it strange how strongly people react against R+…
No one reacts that way when someone says “hit your horse harder if he doesn’t do what you ask.”
Think about that for a second.

[S1969]

@longlanefarm

OP There are obviously a lot of naysayers and pessimists re: positive reinforcement. I would take it with a grain of salt. Do what feels right for you and your horse. I think it’s clear you have your horse’s best interest at heart which is most important.

What’s wrong with wanting to have a conversation with your horse and allow them to take part in that discussion?

@S1969 I think reading some posts from The Willing Equine would give you some answers to your questions. You don’t have to employee this method in your own practice but I think it’s good to try to understand it first. And again, I’m not a die-hard +R person necessarily. However, I am open minded and appreciative of science based animal training techniques.

I do find it strange how strongly people react against R+…
No one reacts that way when someone says “hit your horse harder if he doesn’t do what you ask.”
Think about that for a second.

I have a BS in Psychology with a concentration in Research Methods. I am not a “pessimist” about positive reinforcement. All of the operant conditioning quadrants have uses and values, depending on your training goals.

I also have hunting dogs, and I am a big proponent of using a variety of operant conditioning methods, depending on the goal you are trying to achieve. Some things can be done with only R+ and some things are better done with R- or a combination of the two.

Anyone who talks about using “Positive Reinforcement Only” for any reason is the person who needs to learn more about Operant conditioning, in my opinion. Because it suggests that they don’t understand the other 3 quadrants and how/why they work. It suggests that they equate R+ with “being kind” and everything else as “Hit your horse harder if he doesn’t do what you ask” and/or “being cruel.”

[S1969]

@Bluey

Just clearing a point here, whips and spurs are but mere tools.
Whips are an extension of our arms, spurs of our legs.
Any tool can be used properly or sadly, also misused.

Of course. My point is that an owner can draw a line and say “no spurs because I think they are cruel” but still use R-. The methodology of negative reinforcement or even positive punishment does not have to be cruel - however one defines cruelty.

And yes, any tool can definitely be misused. My hunting dog was nearly ruined by a trainer using only his voice.

[NoSuchPerson]

I have used clicker training to teach a few specific behaviors but I don’t rely exclusively on positive reinforcement. Saying that you’re only ever going to use positive reinforcement is like saying “I don’t need a hammer or a wrench in my toolbox, I’m just going to use a screwdriver for everything.”

The best horse trainer I’ve ever worked with is a great trainer because he has a full kit of training tools and uses whichever approach is most appropriate for the particular horse, goal, and situation.

[NoSuchPerson]

@sophie

Positive reinforcement in the saddle, to me, is using your voice, a scratch or a light pat, to reward your horse.

But in the saddle, haven’t you generally made some kind of “request” (I.e. pressure) to elicit the desired response? So the “reward” is the release of pressure, which you then follow up with an “attaboy” of a pat or scratch. So that’s not, technically, positive reinforcement.

For example, I ask may my horse to flex his head to the left by applying pressure via the left rein. When he responds, I release the rein pressure, say “good boy” and give him a pat on the neck. The “good boy” and pat are “positive” and they may be a reward, but isn’t the key part of the interaction in terms of training “flex” is the application of pressure and release of pressure when the horse produces the desired response? Which isn’t positive reinforcement.

[Scribbler]

@longlanefarm

OP There are obviously a lot of naysayers and pessimists re: positive reinforcement. I would take it with a grain of salt. Do what feels right for you and your horse. I think it’s clear you have your horse’s best interest at heart which is most important.

What’s wrong with wanting to have a conversation with your horse and allow them to take part in that discussion?

@S1969 I think reading some posts from The Willing Equine would give you some answers to your questions. You don’t have to employee this method in your own practice but I think it’s good to try to understand it first. And again, I’m not a die-hard +R person necessarily. However, I am open minded and appreciative of science based animal training techniques.

I do find it strange how strongly people react against R+…
No one reacts that way when someone says “hit your horse harder if he doesn’t do what you ask.”
Think about that for a second.

Note that I use clicker training pretty effectively. I have a trick horse that I do little public performances with a couple times a year. Fetch, play ball, lie down, dance with me, etc. In other words I have gone farther with clicker training than most casual ammies. In other words I am speaking from experience and success. I am not against R+.

I also ride my horse. We do basic dressage training and go on back country trail rides. I have found R+ to be of very limited use under saddle. I use it to stand at mounting block and to reinforce whoa as a voice cue.

IME you get a horse to work for you under saddle by accessing the natural drive to go forward under saddle. The horses I ride have good fun blasting around pasture or turnout at liberty so we know they have energy. Riding them is based on getting them happy about moving forward under saddle and using my cues to shape how they carry themselves so they feel physically good being ridden.

If there is a reward to being ridden it needs to be intrinsic, the horse needs to have a spring in her step when she sees that trail, or arena, or jump.

Clicker training is an extrinsic reward, and it can not replace the intrinsic joy in movement that has to be the real basis for a good riding horse. Indeed when my mare is really happy in her work, when we’ve got some nice canter happening, she doesn’t want to stop and have a treat. She’s too interested in moving.

[longlanefarm]

@Scribbler

IME you get a horse to work for you under saddle by accessing the natural drive to go forward under saddle. The horses I ride have good fun blasting around pasture or turnout at liberty so we know they have energy. Riding them is based on getting them happy about moving forward under saddle and using my cues to shape how they carry themselves so they feel physically good being ridden.

I must agree with you completely. As I mentioned before, I’ve also personally found R+ to be limited for under saddle work. Not that it’s not possible but to “teach”/“shape” etc. it can certainly help the horse understand what you’re asking for in a new cue/movement.

Relaxed and forward is key. Leads me to my favorite trainer/writer, Anna Blake. Her blog is called Relaxed and Forward. Wouldn’t call her R+ but something similar in the dressage world. Beautiful writer as well.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

@longlanefarm

OP There are obviously a lot of naysayers and pessimists re: positive reinforcement.
. . .

I do find it strange how strongly people react against R+…
No one reacts that way when someone says “hit your horse harder if he doesn’t do what you ask.”
Think about that for a second.

Really? I don’t hit my horses. I also don’t do clicker training. Neither one works for me. But I also believe it works for some people. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

[SuzieQNutter]

I didn’t have to do anything with the horse that came because it had bitten and kicked people at the riding school. It was simply a fact that they were non horsey and had done the wrong thing and it was their fault and not the horse. He does not bite or kick here.

The one thing that hubby said when he came up to watch Stars and I is that you can see he is trying his heart out for me and to do what I want. I never use food treats. He works his heart out for me for praise either verbal or non verbal.

Since I have been taught how to communicate with a horse, too many decades ago to mention. Every horse of every breed of all 3 sexes has worked its heart out for me. No treat rewards were used on any of them.

I used to event but the last couple of decades dressage only. I have started taking Stars over cavelletti.

The times I use uh uh. Get out of it. Yell their name and give the death stare and the words I am watching you are:

Eating the grape vine. Yes I know. You can’t teach anything that they can do unsupervised and it would be better to fence it off but yes I am getting around to it.

Yes I praise when he leaves the grapevine.

Hubby leaving the shed open and Sim is in there throwing a bag of lucerne into the air.

I had a monkey decoration tied by his tail in the tree. Sim pulled it and broke off the tail while standing right next to it. Well that explains the decapitated toy koala I found no longer in the tree!

[sophie]

@NoSuchPerson

But in the saddle, haven’t you generally made some kind of “request” (I.e. pressure) to elicit the desired response? So the “reward” is the release of pressure, which you then follow up with an “attaboy” of a pat or scratch. So that’s not, technically, positive reinforcement.

For example, I ask may my horse to flex his head to the left by applying pressure via the left rein. When he responds, I release the rein pressure, say “good boy” and give him a pat on the neck. The “good boy” and pat are “positive” and they may be a reward, but isn’t the key part of the interaction in terms of training “flex” is the application of pressure and release of pressure when the horse produces the desired response? Which isn’t positive reinforcement.

So how would you achieve the same flexion (or which ever movement horses are trained to produce under saddle) with positive reinforcement only? Present a carrot and give it to the horse when he reaches (flexes) for it? (that’s a genuine question, because it’s intriguing to me).

[S1969]

@sophie

So how would you achieve the same flexion (or which ever movement horses are trained to produce under saddle) with positive reinforcement only? Present a carrot and give it to the horse when he reaches (flexes) for it? (that’s a genuine question, because it’s intriguing to me).

Most people would just say “you wouldn’t.”

But I guess you could teach a body movement from the ground with a verbal cue, and then transition to in the saddle (like step to the side). I am not sure, though, that you can achieve certain things without negative reinforcement. Because, for example, lateral movement isn’t just moving sideways; there is need for constant correction/adjustment for amount of flexion throughout the whole body, rate of travel, speed, etc. There really doesn’t seem to me to be any way to achieve it without using negative reinforcement with your legs, seat and hands to make adjustments.

[SuzieQNutter]

You can’t change the way a horse learns. They learn by release of pressure.

It doesnt matter whether you hold their head their with a rein or with a carrot. When you release they will learn to look out.

You have to release when they look in to teach them to look in. JMHO.

[myamego]

@Scribbler I agree, there are times when negative reinforcement is necessary when safety comes into play. However, I do believe that there is a great benefit to the horse when using mostly R+, but to each their own!

I found your post about extrinsic vs intrinsic reward very interesting. The motivation for a horse to do a job should absolutely be intrinsic! Unfortunately, I believe the way that most equestrians train remove that intrinsic joy in a horse to move and work, and the way to reinstall that joy is through extrinsic reward. My love for photography is intrinsic; I could photograph and photoshop all day long just because I think it’s fun. But if someone forced me to photograph when I didn’t want to, or placed me into a situation where I did not feel comfortable photographing or the act of photographing became unpleasant, I would most likely not want to practice photography anymore. Forcing a horse to do a task for longer than they would like, perhaps in a way or in a place that is uncomfortable, distinguishes the joy for that task.

@Bluey I appreciate your advice, and I agree that it is essential to keep an open mind. I’m sure that throughout my training progression, my ideas on training will shift as I begin to practice certain things myself.

@S1969 Any animal is capable of learning through the four quadrants of operant conditioning. Which quadrant(s) you use in your training and the frequency at which you use each one are dependent on what you personally believe is most effective, as well as your priorities throughout and at the end of the training process. I would say that anyone who has chosen to focus on one of the four quadrants of operant conditioning likely fully understands how they work and affect an individual, and has made their decision based on that.

@sophie Clicker training under saddle is a bit tricky. My mare learned that a tap on the neck meant that I wanted her to turn her head for a treat. You could also let your horse rest after they perform what you ask, or let them graze for a moment. To achieve flexion with +R, you do exactly what you said! You encourage the horse to flex on their own, and reward them for the flex. Flexing the neck is a natural movement for a horse to do, but only to a certain point and for a certain amount of time. I can touch my toes for a brief moment, but if someone tried to get me to place my hands flat on the floor, that would hurt. Just as I would have to stretch consistently to get more flexible, so does your horse, and by asking for the flex with R+, you let the horse choose how far and how long he can hold it for. Eventually, as your horse becomes more flexible, you can ask for longer and deeper stretches (holding the carrot further away and for a longer period of time). Once your horse knows how to do the movement that you’re asking for, you can add a gentle cue with the halter/bridle and combine it with the carrot, and then slowly remove the carrot entirely.

@longlanefarm That is an interesting point. I feel that since horses are large animals, and thus more threatening, training methods are geared to yield the fastest results and the most control, and now it is the norm to train in that manner.

[myamego]

@S1969 I wouldn’t call every adjustment under saddle negative reinforcement, and you’re right, adjustments are necessary. A cue only becomes negative when it causes pain or discomfort. I can ask my horse to trot with a verbal cue or a light touch of my foot/calf, which does not create an uncomfortable situation for the horse. A cue only becomes negative when I add excessive pressure, or increase the pressure gradually, or even cause pain. Squeezing with a spur or kicking is negative reinforcement because it is uncomfortable. A light physical cue is just a request, IMO.

[furlong47]

@myamego

@S1969 I wouldn’t call every adjustment under saddle negative reinforcement, and you’re right, adjustments are necessary. A cue only becomes negative when it causes pain or discomfort. I can ask my horse to trot with a verbal cue or a light touch of my foot/calf, which does not create an uncomfortable situation for the horse. A cue only becomes negative when I add excessive pressure, or increase the pressure gradually, or even cause pain. Squeezing with a spur or kicking is negative reinforcement because it is uncomfortable. A light physical cue is just a request, IMO.

Here again is a lack of understanding of the definition of negative reinforcement. If you ask the horse to go forward, and he doesn’t, and then you kick him, that’s positive punishment. You are adding something (the kick) because he didn’t do as you ask. If he does then go forward and you stop kicking, that’s negative reinforcement. You are taking something away (stopping the kick) because he did what you want.

Negative in the case of operant conditioning doesn’t mean bad, painful, hurtful, etc. It means taking something away as either a reward/reinforcement or a punishment. Positive doesn’t mean good, happy, kind. It means adding something as a reward/reinforcement or punishment.

[Bluey]

What those that use operant conditioning to shape behaviours=train find is that they will end up with a very motivated student and also a demanding student that will keep the teacher on it’s toes.
Most dogs and horses I have trained have been to the point that just the work itself is their best reward and really ignore treats, want more and more to do.
When you get there, you have to back off a little, don’t want learning be any cause of stress, even positive stress.

A horse taught me that when learning to turn around in front of me.
I didn’t realize he was adding speed and lowering the head and we ended up with him turning around wildly, head practically on the ground.
We had to correct that and then I heard from another trainer the same happened to her.
You just never know what you may get and some times it is a bonus you were not looking for but reinforce as you can use that.
Other times, as with the way too fast and too low head, not necessarily what you want.
Your students try to anticipate as part of the fun and give you more than you expect.

Finding a balance in all you do should always be considered, even in training.

We called that kind of training letting the genie out of the bottle.
When we enhance the horizons of a dog or horse or any other animal to what all else is possible, you never know where that will go.
Now you have such a motivated student, you can’t put it back in the bottle, you have to run with it.

[Scribbler]

Yup. Andrew Macclean made this all very clear at a clinic I went to this summer.

These are things are misnamed because we understand negative and positive as bad and good.

We should really call them additive and subtractive or something like that. Add an extrinsic reward or subtract/release a pressure.

Riding a horse that goes forward on a whisper of calf, that does half pass when you shift your weight, and you then release that pressure: that’s subtractive or negative reinforcement. It’s not negative that is bad to the horse. It is also exactly how they communicate IRL with each other, very few R+ moments in the herd.

I think that you can’t really do clicker training correctly unless you understand the other 3 quadrants as modalities not as bad things.

Yeah I can get my horse to do carrot stretches for a carrot. I can’t get her to do shoulder in down the long side for a treat. It takes too much shaping.

You can only use clicker productively if you know it’s place and limitations.

Otherwise you might end up sitting around for an hour waiting for your horse to “choose” to leave the arena