Positive Reinforcement Training

[myamego]

I am planning on delving into the world of positive reinforcement with my first horse. I saw amazing results with my lease horse and am really excited to explore it further! I would love to hear everyone’s experiences with positive reinforcement, whether you used it to solve one small problem or practice it daily! How you compare it to traditional training methods, how your barn/trainers/equestrian friends reacted to the idea of positive reinforcement training, any tips you might have, etc.

Also, if anyone recommends any resources on the theory and psychology of using +R with horses, and any how-to videos/articles, I’ll check them out!

[Scribbler]

Get some good basic instructions in clicker training. It’s a good technique if you have good timing and are strategic what to teach first. My mare is super food motivated and we’ve learned all kinds of performance tricks. I find it is most useful on the ground, a bit disruptive under saddle.

Some clicker aficionados are determined to do everything R+. Honestly I don’t think that’s feasible. You do need to have good basic ground manners installed before it’s safe to mess around with treats.

[SuzieQNutter]

Traditional training methods use positive reinforcement. Horses learn from release of pressure. So giving the inside rein or proving the inside rein is a reward. Free walk on a loose rein is a reward.

I teach good boy or good girl for a reward. Uh uh means no.

A horsewill work its heart out for you for praise. So will a dog.

I use it 100% of the time.

Be forewarned that it has been proven that it does not work on human children!

[furlong47]

@SuzieQNutter

Traditional training methods use positive reinforcement. Horses learn from release of pressure. So giving the inside rein or proving the inside rein is a reward. Free walk on a loose rein is a reward.

This is actually negative reinforcement. If you are taking something (pressure) away when you get the correct response, that’s negative reinforcement. If you are adding something (treats or praise, etc) when you get the correct response, that’s positive reinforcement.

Adding something when you get the wrong response (like a smack with the crop or a vocal reprimand) is positive punishment, and taking something away when you get the wrong response is negative punishment.

A lot of people use these terms incorrectly, especially when it comes to positive and negative reinforcement. And you almost never hear people say the terms positive and negative punishment, even though plenty may use them.

[SuzieQNutter]

@furlong47

This is actually negative reinforcement. If you are taking something (pressure) away when you get the correct response, that’s negative reinforcement. If you are adding something (treats or praise, etc) when you get the correct response, that’s positive reinforcement.

Adding something when you get the wrong response (like a smack with the crop or a vocal reprimand) is positive punishment, and taking something away when you get the wrong response is negative punishment.

A lot of people use these terms incorrectly, especially when it comes to positive and negative reinforcement. And you almost never hear people say the terms positive and negative punishment, even though plenty may use them.

I hardly use uh uh anymore as they know they get praised and don’t want to get uh uh.

[S1969]

@furlong47

This is actually negative reinforcement. If you are taking something (pressure) away when you get the correct response, that’s negative reinforcement. If you are adding something (treats or praise, etc) when you get the correct response, that’s positive reinforcement.

Adding something when you get the wrong response (like a smack with the crop or a vocal reprimand) is positive punishment, and taking something away when you get the wrong response is negative punishment.

A lot of people use these terms incorrectly, especially when it comes to positive and negative reinforcement. And you almost never hear people say the terms positive and negative punishment, even though plenty may use them.

Agreed.

Most horse training methods are negative reinforcement - pressure and release.

Positive reinforcement is almost never used as a primary command under saddle although they can be used in addition to negative reinforcement for a job well done (praise, pat on neck). We don’t say “Trot” and then give them a treat if they do it.

I think many people assume “negative” is “bad” and look instead for only “positive” (happy and kind!) training methods. This is not at all what positive and negative mean - it’s just adding or removing a stimulus. Reinforcement v. punishment (also not “mean or painful”) - but just whether you want to strengthen or diminish a behavior.

I’ve actual heard people use the term “Operant Conditioning” to mean “Positive Reinforcement only” (e.g. only clicks and treats for dog training)…Uh…no.

There is nothing wrong with using positive reinforcement as a training method on horses. They are certainly smart enough to learn behaviors with a voice command or gesture, and receive a reward for their effort. It’s just not usually very easy to do under saddle.

[longlanefarm]

I am totally into positive reinforcement and think every horse could benefit from more of it. However, I agree with the above poster that I’ve found it difficult to translate to under saddle work. I also think that for the horse’s sake (chance of him/her not being with one owner forever is high) they need to know and understand negative reinforcement (pressure and release).

For my OTTB, who is intelligent, curious, and often unmotivated it works very well for many things. She realizes that “Oh, there is something in this for me/this is a fun game.” It’s helped with things like positioning of her head during ground work as well as teaching her to let me clean her lady-bits instead of kick at me.

Another vote for Shawna Karrasch’s book. Great info and science based. Also, The Willing Equine is another great resource.

Be aware that all horses need to learn how to behave around food/treats. Some take longer than others and some react differently than others. If your horse is pushy when you’re starting out, that’s normal. He/she is learning. Also be aware than you can inadvertently reinforce that unwanted behavior around food so be very cognizant of your timing.

I am no professional or expert but I understand the importance of building a solid relationship with your horse first and foremost. It makes me cringe for the horses of people who post questions about the amount of whips/spurs/force they use for their “lazy” show horses, “what else can I do/he’s such a jerk…” How fun does that sound?! I really think those horses would benefit immensely from some positive reinforcement and a more natural living environment.

Good on you for exploring this for your horse.

[Bluey]

“Positive reinforcement training” doesn’t make much sense when we consider what any training is in the real world.

That is like saying you are going to paint, but only with long, pale blue straight lines.
No angles or curves or differences in sizes or other colors than light blue or light or any other to your painting but long, pale bue straight lines.
Well, you may choose to only see the straight lines, but in reality most paintings have more to them than just one basic element and exclude all other.

I second learning operant conditioning, clicker training in some circles, that is about understanding and how to use all the tools of training properly, including positive reinforcement.

I wonder if what the OP meant is, she wants to train in a way that she is bringing the least resistances in her subjects as possible?
There are many ways of training out there and combinations of those.
Every one training has to figure which are best for each situation and horse at hand.
Some training methods and trainers do tend to fight a horse more while trying to get it to understand than others.

[Scribbler]

Negative reinforcement is what we are using when we ride with aids, and the aids can be so light they never cause the horse discomfort. I touch maresy with my calf, she trots, I don’t touch her again unless she slows down. You are removing a stimulus.

Likewise positive punishment can run the gamut from saying uhuh to a sensitive horse, to getting out a whip for a horse that’s biting you in the stall, but it is applied in response to undesired behavior rather than a cue for behavior. It is the timing rather than the severity that classified this as negative reinforcement (an aid cue) or positive punishment. That doesn’t mean negative reinforcement is the same as punishment! Only that both can be very very mild.

The one it’s hard to figure out for horses is negative punishment. It actually is inherent to clicker training when you withhold treats until the horse gets the right response. But otherwise they don’t really have the brain power to understand going to your room without supper or being docked in pay for a workplace error.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

I’ve used it with dogs and tried it unsuccessfully with horses.
My one horse got very overstimulated in the presence of food rewards. I understand there is a way to condition him to manage his emotions, but I figured if I had to train him to accept a certain method of training before we could even get started training then it wasn’t worth it.
My other horse just isn’t into it. I started with loading the clicker, as one does, and he just.doesn’t.care. He’ll take a few treats to be polite, smile tolerantly, and walk away. He’s such a good worker I didn’t insist. I was just going to do clicker training as something fun, and when he didn’t find it all that fun I didn’t worry about it.

[poltroon]

@SuzieQNutter

Be forewarned that it has been proven that it does not work on human children!

Clicker training actually does work on human children. In fact the clicker turns out to be more powerful in its way than even praise because the noise of the clicker is short and distinct enough that it goes straight to the amygdala, which is the same way you learn not to touch a hot stove. It creates a precision, if you do it right, that’s not possible with your voice alone, because it can mark to the target nervous system, much much faster.

https://www.clickertraining.com/node/113

[poltroon]

I used the clicker to train my pony to stop being so grabby with food treats. What I did was I taught her that she’d only get a treat if she moved her head away from me. So I’d have a treat in hand. The instant she looked away, I clicked. Then she got the treat.

It only took two sessions to do this and completely extinguish the behavior of mugging for food.

It was fun also because I let her teach ME to always give her a treat when she turned away. I could see the side-eye watching me waiting for me to catch on and give her the treat.

[SuzieQNutter]

I don’t just use good boy afterwards. I use it during.

It was a breakthrough with the hardest horse I have retrained.

So as I said above under saddle I can reward by saying good boy and I have a lot of other words he understands as well like lovely and beautiful. A scratch on the neck . Prove the inside rein and go long and low. Stroke with the handle of the whip. That is all undersaddle.

[SuzieQNutter]

@poltroon

Clicker training actually does work on human children. In fact the clicker turns out to be more powerful in its way than even praise because the noise of the clicker is short and distinct enough that it goes straight to the amygdala, which is the same way you learn not to touch a hot stove. It creates a precision, if you do it right, that’s not possible with your voice alone, because it can mark to the target nervous system, much much faster.

https://www.clickertraining.com/node/113

The article I read did not refer to it happening at the time as not working but creating adults that in the end thinks the World owes them.

So if I am wrong with positive reinforcement with what I do. What do you do if you take on horse that kicks and bites?

[S1969]

@SuzieQNutter

What do you do if you take on horse that kicks and bites?

Positive punishment.

CTJ moment and make it scary. You don’t have to hurt an animal to deliver “punishment”. The only point is that a stimuli/behavior (that you do not want) is responded to with another stimuli, designed to diminish the first. So you can yell, or wave your arms, and/or deliver another “punishment.”

Operant conditioning has 4 quadrants, and all are useful depending on the circumstances. Positive reinforcement does not work for everything. And none of them have to be used exclusively or independently.

If the biting horse calms down and stands quietly after a CTJ moment - you can give it positive reinforcement - a gentle tone and pat for being quiet. Now you have two forms of operant conditioning working together – biting = “scary” and quiet = “praise”.

[poltroon]

@SuzieQNutter

The article I read did not refer to it happening at the time as not working but creating adults that in the end thinks the World owes them.

Uh what? Whatever article you’re reading has nothing to do with actual positive reinforcement. You can train all kinds of behavior with positive reinforcement, including undesirable behavior.

Positive reinforcement generally transitions to a phase where you reward on a lottery, so it’s like a slot machine. You don’t end up giving a treat every time.

So if I am wrong with positive reinforcement with what I do. What do you do if you take on horse that kicks and bites?

That is a behavior that is often better handled with positive punishment, but some kinds of negative behavior can be fixed with positive reinforcement either by putting the bad behavior on cue and never cueing it, or by training the correct behavior. A horse that bites randomly cannot be corrected with positive reinforcement, but a horse that bites say if you have treats in hand or if you are trying to give a shot can be taught to do something other than biting during that time.

[myamego]

@Scribbler I’ll look into clicker training, but I’ll have to work on my timing. I need some practice! I’m not quite sure if all aids fit into the negative reinforcement category. Like you said, you lightly touch your mare, and she moves. You don’t apply excessive pressure, and she understands what you want, so there is really nothing “bad” that you take away when she responds. But this is in the event that the aids were not originally taught by a gradual increase of pressure, and therefore discomfort, which would cause the mare to have a negative association with the cue, no matter how light it may currently be.

@furlong47 @S1969 Right, pressure and release is negative reinforcement, which I’m trying to slowly get away from. I will most likely combine positive reinforcement and pressure and release as I start to train, then gradually retire the pressure and release. Clicker training with treats is more challenging under saddle, I’ve tried! I’ll probably find a reward other than treats to use under saddle, probably scratches or a moment of relaxation.

@poltroon I definitely want to try that! I think training a horse to be gentle with food is the first thing someone should teach when starting with positive reinforcement.

@SuzieQNutter Whatever type of training you use with a horse that kicks and bites, I would suggest looking into WHY the horse is kicking and biting. For example, if a horse is a girthy and nips at their rider while tacking up, I think we could all agree that the horse is trying to tell you that he is unhappy. The horse could have a negative association with the girth, the saddle, both, with being tacking up, and/or with being ridden. Maybe the horse even has a negative association with you. Training the horse to stop biting keeps you from getting bitten, but it doesn’t solve the root of the behavior. Whatever the underlying cause of the issue may be, it is important to find out what it is, otherwise you end up with a silent, but very unhappy horse.

@longlanefarm I love The Willing Equine! I completely agree with Adele’s philosophy on training horses. I hope to start working with her soon. And I think a more natural living environment is very important as well.

[myamego]

@Bluey What I am trying to achieve in my training is building a willing, happy equine partner by giving them the option to tell me “yes” or “no”, and I believe that positive reinforcement is the best way to do that. It may not be the most conventional way to train, or the fastest, but I believe that giving the horse a choice without using force or punishment is essential is creating the most eager and relaxed horse possible.

[Scribbler]

If you have good timing and a food motivated horse, clicker training can be amazing for ground work. But honestly I can’t see nonfood rewards having anything near that power especially in the saddle.

My mare will turn herself inside out to learn a new trick or invent one once she knows we are playing clicker. But a pat or scratch is not powerful enough.

Also clicker and food rewards will not moderate her behavior in extremely high stress or high energy situations. There are certainly times you need physical control of her.

And honestly I don’t think there’s any moral high ground or total benefit to the horse to doing only R+.

Horses don’t operate in their own lives just on R+. I would not have a big bruise on my hip right now if the mare I’m currently borrowing didn’t have a strong instinct for positive punishment, once her attempts at negative reinforcement didn’t work.

I have not seen anyone so far produce a useful horse using R+ only.

Kind training, yes. But not solely R+

And I say this as someone who has taken clicker training quite far, we even do little public performances now. I love how my own mare switches on when we are doing clicker. But that intensity can’t last all day. And I couldn’t do it without having good skills also in negative reinforcement and in positive punishment as needed.

You need excellent timing in all of these. R+ won’t make up for not being skilled enough to do negative reinforcement or positive punishment effectively.

[Bluey]

@myamego

@Bluey What I am trying to achieve in my training is building a willing, happy equine partner by giving them the option to tell me “yes” or “no”, and I believe that positive reinforcement is the best way to do that. It may not be the most conventional way to train, or the fastest, but I believe that giving the horse a choice without using force or punishment is essential is creating the most eager and relaxed horse possible.

Ever watch horses interact with each other, mares teach foals, adults manage their fluid hierarchies in herd situations?

We need to interact and teach considering the horse in front of us, not try to shoehorn that horse into theories we form of what we think is there and should happen.

Keep giving your ideas a good try, that is a good way to learn more and become better at this conversation we are having with a different species.
Just be ready to be realistic about what is there, not become one more theory in search of validation.

To look for more in all we do is wonderful and what attracts many to working with others.
Keeping an open mind is helpful to get the most out of it.