What she said. Let’s say that it is shivers. While advances have been made in managing shivers, it’s still not curable and is a progressive disease. The biggest issue I forsee is what happens if you ever have to sell the horse. Eventing horses don’t have to be perfect - my trainer has a gelding that she could never have afforded if he hadn’t had Australian Stringhalt. But that is curable (he’s in fact fine now) and this is one hell of a horse otherwise; brave, crazy athletic, extravagent mover, etc. But a horse with a nebulous leg issue is going to be a hard sell. You yourself negotiated the price down over this issue. Expect others to do the same.
1 Like
One of THE worst mistakes a buyer can make is to buy a “vet. bill.”
No horse is perfect, but lots are excellent. When faced with a known issue with no clear resolution you’re “rolling the dice.” Maybe you win, but maybe you roll snake eyes.
A fair question is “how much money do you have?” If it ends up that you bought a problem what will you do? Euthanize? Retire? Spend money on seeking ever more unlike “cures”? What?
Ask yourself hard questions and give yourself honest answers.
G.
5 Likes
A vet whose opinion I value highly once told me that she could find me a pony with 100% clean X-rays. But it wouldn’t be a pony that I’d want to put my child on. The mild arthritis is one thing. Nebulous back leg issue is quite another.
I didn’t read the entire thread until after I posted my first comment. Now I see that the horse is for sale because the owner has a new project. I’d be suspicious. Most people don’t give up a schoolmaster type who handily jumps around 3’ for a project. They keep the schoolmaster. Sounds like they might have noticed something but didn’t want to put effort into diagnostics.
3 Likes
I also forgot to note: when I talked to the seller, who seemed genuinely surprised, she very shortly afterward sent me a video stating the date and picking up and holding all 4 feet up in flexion without issue. She sent it so quickly that I strongly believe he wasn’t drugged (he also appeared totally alert in vid). Maybe she’s just used to him, but from what I know it doesn’t really matter and even people really skilled at dealing with horses with shivers struggle to get them to hold their feet up. Maybe the vet was asking strangely or was flexing in a way that was really uncomfortable?
also, in response to previous question as to why someone would give up a schoolmaster for a project: the owner is an 18yr old girl and her dad. She wanted something to train, and he’s already got all the buttons. Can’t have 2 horses and he’s too nice to just sit. I didn’t make the best decisions at 18 either 
DH had a WB gelding w/ probably Shivers. We only had him 1.5 years, and he was 7, so not exactly what the OP is looking at. But that horse had classic symptoms, difficulty backing up and discomfort with hind feet being worked with. Our farrier was a saint and was very patient and was able to trim him with no sedation. The horse was bred in the purple, and we would never have been able to afford him without his ‘issue’. I have no idea how his condition progressed, or didn’t, as we had to sell him when we left the country.
But, with a going 10-12yo who’s stayed sound in a similar workload to what I’d be doing, and with the very nebulous vet finding/diagnoses OP describes, I’d be open to buying him for the right price.
COTH has hundreds, probably thousands, of tragic NQR posts. Also, probably an equal number of perfectly-healthy-great-X-rays horses that colic badly, or take a bad step and break a leg or rupture a tendon stories, or horse had arthritis or xx condition and stayed sound and competing for another 20 years stories.
Horses are heartbreakers. But some heartbreak is more expensive and tragic than others. But as a budget shopper myself, I’ve had several horses that had a “little something” in their PPE, or medical history. Most of those turned out all right, though perhaps needed some maintenance to accommodate. The horses that I’ve lost “too early” were either injured through accident, or developed something that wasn’t discoverable during PPE.
3 Likes
Hey @RonniM I have to say it’s kind of strange that she just happened to have a video of the horse being flexed without problems on hand and able to send that quickly? He’s either had other failed vettings, or she had staged some videos? Or was it a new video from after your vetting?
As everyone else has said… if he’s in work and you can get him for a STEAL and are prepared to deal with potentially finding him a pasture situation, or PTA sooner rather than later, then go for it. But if you’re financially exhausting yourself to get this horse that potentially has shivers and is all together NQR… you’re going to spend whatever money you’ve “saved” purchasing him in diagnostics down the road. And he may not be fixable.
3 Likes
Your PPE only came up with NQR and a guess.
That is where you stand now.
Your choices, keep checking horse out and then still don’t know if there is something and what.
Or move on now, let someone else deal with this.
There are other horses out there that don’t come with unknowns.
I would not count too much that the horse may be for sale for a good or questionable reason.
That doesn’t matter now, just that there are questions about something maybe being not up to par for your purpose.
A hard spot to be in as a buyer.
Good to ask for opinions, all that has been brought up should help you.
Good luck making the best decisions … for you.
2 Likes
Yes, I would get another vet not associated with the seller or original PPE clinic to do flexions on all four legs again. I’d also take video of the flexions and have the original PPE vet review the video and maybe your regular vet.
I’ve heard numerous times that flexions are extremely subjective depending on how hard/high the vet holds. My vet says he could make any horse flex positive if he cranked hard enough.
6 Likes
I would just like to point out that not all people are interested in having schoolmasters. It’s not an unlikely scenario for someone to sell on a solid horse so they can get a project to start from the ground up or fix. I’ve done it myself often since age 17, I love bringing them along or helping them work through issues, but once they hit their limit I would get the itch to help another horse. So I wouldn’t necessarily say that’s a red flag. Maybe something to keep in mind but not an automatic reason to not go for it.
The thing is, you never know what can happen with horses. It comes down to if you can accept the risk of it being something more. Personally, I wouldn’t automatically discount it, I know an older horse with shivers (practically falls over backing up, can’t hold his back legs up at all) who is still kicking. He can only do flat work at this point, but he was a jumper for a long time, a camp horse, and is now living with a loving family that pleasure ride him occasionally. I am honestly surprised he is still going, he is really getting up there in age.
2 Likes
Wonder if you can make another type of deal with the owner. Sort of lease until he is no longer useable, or something.
If the owner is concerned about this welfare she may go for it. I might not just buy such a horse, although I admit I have had one and he was fine and still is for normal use. A lot can be done with nutritional support, sympathetic farrier.
Not all of them go on the downward spiral, but you don’t know this. He may well serve you very well for quite a while.
I’d be reluctant to go on this journey because you do not know his future costs or abilities. I’d be willing to go in with someone on this horse for his sake.
1 Like
Having known and ridden two horses with shivers, whose ultimate cause of death was totally unrelated, I would say go for it.
The fitter they are the less it demonstrates.
3 Likes
Would not touch this with a 10 ft pole. I’ve bought plenty of horses that had less than perfect flexions, dodgy xrays, arthritic changes, and ones that needed fairly heavy maintenance, but in this scenario your vet has suggested they suspect a potential neurological condition. This does NOT fall under the category of “wear and tear” and is not something you are going to be able to manage with maintenance.
I’m on the fence. I owned a shivers TB for 12 years. He evented through Prelim, and all the issues we worked through were completely unrelated to the shivers. It presented worst when he was stressed, tired, out of shape, or having his hind legs hiked up too high by a farrier. He never once did it under saddle, and was never once sedated to shoe. Usually, his farrier just pulled out a lower-set pony stall jack with the sling top so he could work on his hind feet a little lower.
That said, and why I’m on the fence, I ended up losing him at 23 to an undetermined neurological issue. He’d been injected for kissing spines twice; and in hindsight I wish I’d had his neck x-rayed at some point, too. He had some other quirks (hated blankets that ended low in his neck, he needed a high or integrated neck; resented a regular breastplate over his withers; if his pad slid down and brushed his withers he shut down). I cannot say with any confidence if his shivers and the neurological collapse were or were not related, and at 23 he’d lived a good life. I do not regret having bought him knowing he had shivers, even inadvertently kicking me in the face before I really recognized what I was dealing with, I would not have had many of the experiences I had without him. I may have had many other ones without him. He was truly a horse of a lifetime for me; it’s all money and degrees of heartbreak in the end, what he taught me along the way was worth all of what I paid in both.
4 Likes
I have an “atypical could be shivers” horse and I bought him knowing this, because he was otherwise sound, safe and very affordable. His previous owners took him to the university vet school for a full workup when the symptoms first appeared and they ruled out all the other likely causes, so diagnosis was “possibly shivers.”
He displays the typical hind leg lifting and shivering when picking feet, when hosing the hind legs, sometimes when booting or bandaging. It is exptremely difficult for him to hold one leg up long enough for the farrier. We keep him barefoot behind and have to sedate him heavily for each trim. So that is a cost you should factor into your considerations.
He backs up fine and has no issues turning and backing into a trailer stall, for example. The symptoms are the same now at age 9 as they were when first diagnosed at 3. The symptoms are not visible under saddle and have never affected performance. He is currently showing Second Level dressage and schooling all of Third.
I do keep him on a good quality selenium / vit e supplement and feed a high dose of vit e oil, another cost for you to factor into your decision.
1 Like
OP, this is your very first owned horse and it sounds like you board out? Correct? This is the kind of a situation that is far easier for those who own their own barn or have family with horse property. Those can take a gamble because they have a plan B for an NQR horse if it doesn’t work out or they have a personal situation where they can no longer keep it- they can stick it out in a field.
If you board out and can only afford a single horse? You have no such options.
IMO you need to get another vet for a second opinion. If you cannot easily afford this second opinion, it’s an indication this is not the horse for you as if there is an underlying condition? Be a lot more expensive to treat and manage then that second opinion. It’s not like this is arthritic changes in the hocks, those are easy enough to manage. But even that is not cheap, it’s a continuing cost. Here you have no idea what’s wrong.
Be honest with yourself. How flexible are you goal wise? Do you want a light riding or pasture puff horse for up to 20 years if it’s the only horse you can afford to own? Yes, that can happen anyway but why start with that?
And it’s surprising that the owner did get back to you right away with an exsisting video of clean flexions. Did she say what date those were taken? This NQR stuff usualy starts very slight and worsens over time so those vids are yesterday’s condition, not today’s. Get a second opinion or pass.
.
3 Likes
I inferred from this that the seller made the video in response to the feedback from OP’s PPE. To me, this makes it seem like a stronger possibility that the way the vet cranked on the horse doing the flexions caused the reaction that resulted in the term shivers being used. Obviously, I have no knowledge of the vet’s experience level or credentials - is it a junior associate or a veteran that others seek out for lameness assessments? At this point, I think the answer to that is somewhat irrelevant - the best way for OP to get clarity and maybe some peace of mind is a second opinion- preferably with a vet who has been around the block a few times.
6 Likes
Ditto
1 Like
In life is best, as Grandma used to say, “don’t borrow trouble”.
You are looking for a horse to do things with, not a horse that may not be up to that?
Don’t start with one that has problems that may keep you from doing what you need to do with him.
Enough comes up that we can’t foresee.
Not starting with known problems seems the most sensible.
1 Like
Not going to advise a stranger with an unknown horse over the internet to make a multi year financial and emotional commitment on a hunch, my experience or make excuses for the bad flexions without ever seeing the horse. Particularly in a boarding out situation with no escape hatch ( turn out on own or family property).
Get a second opinion from a neutral vet.
2 Likes
@RonniM I would love to know if you bought this horse and how it is going. I have only just read this thread and thought the whole situation sounded pretty genuine to me. I know we shouldn’t trust anyone these days, but I would have trusted the seller being genuinely surprised, and I would have also trust that your vet was trying to give you worst case scenario.
1 Like
