Oh dang, I didn’t realize there were more horses to look at! Anna is very cute. In fact, there are several that make me glad I don’t have the time for another horse. That little red gelding nicknamed Sammy looks like something that would make a fun friend for horse camping.
Me too!! And I am so grateful to the TB Makeover for showcasing how wonderful these athletes are in their second careers. The Makeover has driven up prices too.
We have had two OTTB turned hunters. I once asked my vet if the reason many people thinkTB’s have soundness issues is because they buy them and don’t spend money on good farriers, hay, saddle fit, dentists, Adequan, Ulcergard, and ensure they are in a good program that has excellent footing etc She agreed with me as she handed me a $1200 bill. 
They are not cheap to bring into the world and I am so glad their worth is getting appreciated.
7 Likes
What do you mean by symptoms? Thirty percent of warmbloods and TB’s show KS on X-rays. The European vets actually made a statement in 2019 about how ridiculous Americans were getting with their X-rays because it was eliminating so many horses!
Now I think the same is happening with necks!! Didn’t this also happen when we got digital X-rays and every horse showed navicular changes??
Maybe they ought to stop trying to sell us the ones they don’t want to keep on their side of the pond. 
In all seriousness, I do not think the incidence of these diseases (cervical, spinal, navicular, etc) has increased. My understanding is our diagnostic ability and lameness detection threshold has increased, which has made these diseases much easier to detect.
17 Likes
I think the most widely cited study is 39% of all horses have kissing spine on radiographs. Some studies I have seen this estimate is Over 60%. Only a small percentage show any symptoms, and it’s highly possible that those symptoms are a symptom of something else but get blamed on the kissing spine. I agree that this is a huge red herring that is causing people to pass over many suitable horses.
8 Likes
Gonna chuck my personal experience in here, every horse I’ve ever seen with clinical findings of KS on rads has been symptomatic. They don’t always limp but they do always show at least two to three symptoms I correlate with KS besides traveling limb lameness.
When looking at rads of a prospective purchase I always remind myself KS isn’t curable, but it is treatable – the degree of success really depends on your management, farrier’s skills, and the number of affected processes.
There is a post by a vet going around about her 4* horse, and how his radiographs show moderate to severe kissing spine. She says he is entirely asymptomatic.
Luckily for all of us, this horse’s competition record and online videos of his dressage and training exist on Youtube. The videos show a classically symptomatic KS horse. If you’re curious, here is the post: https://www.facebook.com/southcoastequinevets/posts/5292867287437115
Clearly, not all vets can actually detect lameness. The older I get and the more veterinarians I meet, the more thankful I am for my local vet who can see the tiniest, almost imperceptible body lameness.
8 Likes
I didn’t see them mentioned but TRRAC in PA (Maui Meadow Farm) often has lovely horses for a steal of a price. I got my now 5 yr old grey mare from them for a whopping $250 in 2020 (she does has a screw in her knee, but New Bolton gave her the all clear and it hasn’t been an issue). Depending on how long they have the horse, they are let down (transitioned to a more normal grain schedule/ type/ amount, turned out, sometimes bodywork is done) and sometimes they will start retraining. Both Nina and Charlie are excellent with the horses and excellent to work with. At the time I got my mare, they had a larger (16.1-16.2) chestnut gelding with all the chrome who looked like a nice hunter prospect, who listed for a very reasonable price. It was easy to set up the PPE, but I can’t comment on trying the horses as I bought from out of state/ sight unseen.
I have had 2 horses with serious neck issues that would have been identified by x-ray. The first I bought when neck rads weren’t really a thing. The 2nd I did not x ray for exactly the reason you stated, that necks are being over-scrutinized and the rest of the rads/clinical were very good. Well, turned out that lovely 5yo had a congenital malformation, what is now being referred to as ECVM, at c6/c7 and proliferative arthritis from c3-c7 because of the instability due to that defect.
Take the neck rads and have a boarded radiologist or internal medicine person review any neck rads. The guidance for what constitutes compression has changed a lot in the past couple of years and seems to be less strict than it was.
1 Like
Basically. They buy cheap horses, try to keep them cheaply and then blame the horse for not thriving. But the expensive horse gets all those things by default. Champagne on a beer budget still needs to be handled & stored like champagne or the result is unpalatable.
10 Likes
You didn’t include videos for reference but I was curious so looked some up myself-- I only watched one test through, the 2018 one from Barbury. I see a horse that is not confident and pulled back into the contact. He is uneven in the front legs but I want to attribute that to not being allowed to move fluidly through the bridle. I didn’t watch anything outside of the sandbox.
ETA. I completely understand not wanting to buy a horse with kissing spine. Don’t think I would take one myself unless it was already doing the work I would require of it successfully and was seriously cheap. Even then, why would you willingly assume that risk? Everyone says it can be cured and managed with appropriate training, bodywork, and vetting. Okay, but realistically, who wants to sign up to maintain that? Who says I won’t get into an accident tomorrow and slip on the training and having the body worker come out? Who rides perfectly every single day?
1 Like
But most people don’t even need a horse to be sound enough to do a 4*, even with room for improvement. Serviceably sound applies to the majority of horses and that is enough for the majority of jobs.
3 Likes
I would be interested to know if there have been studies done on the actual percentage that are symptomatic. It seems like that would be pretty hard to determine, because you first have to account for the fact that people generally are not radiographing backs on an asymptomatic horse (unless its a PPE), and second you have to try to weed out cases where the back turns out to be an incidental finding on the road to uncovering the actual lameness cause.
Personally, I am highly suspicious that only a small percentage show any symptoms.
I also am always surprised by how many people seem willing to encourage others to overlook bad back x-rays. I feel like this board gets so many posts about PPE findings and the general advice is “why start out buying a problem” - especially when its a fresh off the track TB or a young green horse that has not done much u/s in the desired discipline. Then that advice seems to shift pretty suddenly when the known finding is a bad back.
A cold set chip in an ankle may never bother the horse either, or a small cyst in a hock, but its still a risk many people may rightfully not want to take. I don’t view KS any different, personally. (That said, on a horse already doing the job I want - my view changes).
1 Like
WOUND & ORTHOPEDIC MANAGEMENT
Overriding Spinous Processes (“Kissing Spines”) in Horses: Diagnosis, Treatment, and Outcome in 212 Cases
Tracy A. Turner, DVM, MS, Diplomate ACVS
“Kissing spines” is a radiographic diagnosis. It occurs in 39% of the horse population but does not cause problems in all horses. Kissing spines make a horse 3 times more likely to have back pain. Kissing spines are more likely associated with clinical problems in Thoroughbreds, dressage horses, horses 5 years of age or less, and horses with 5 or more vertebrae involved. Thermography is very helpful in suggesting the pathology in the evaluation of horses with back pain. Lateral radiographs of the spinous processes of the thoracolumbar vertebrae are used to confirm and char- acterize the condition. A therapeutic regimen combining shockwave, mesotherapy, and exercise had the most successful outcome in clinical cases. Author’s address: Anoka Equine Veterinary Ser- vices, 16445 70th St. NE, Elk River, MN 55330; e-mail: turner@anokaequine.com. © 2011 AAEP.
4 Likes
To your point, that most people don’t need a horse to be sound enough to do a 4*
The horses that have KS that are symptomatic - those symptoms are largely behavioral. I would argue that the average ammy is even less well equipped than a top level rider to deal with behavioral issues under saddle (and on the ground) that arise from kissing spine. Speaking from experience.
7 Likes
Again, and I certainly do not mean this personally, just as a general statement, I think it’s pretty hard to determine if symptoms are actually symptoms of the kissing spine or another issue or a riding or training issue. Even correcting by management, better management in general equals a horse that goes better.
But all of that aside which is certainly opinion and you can take it with a grain of salt, the reality is that if the horse buying public discards 39% of all horses then we have both a larger horse welfare concern and no hope of keeping prices affordable for anyone. On a thread about price concerns I think it’s a serious concern.
4 Likes
Thank you! The “3 times more likely to have back pain” is very interesting.
You have two opposing groups in the KS circle.
You have the pros that insist the horse is asymptomatic, sound, and that buyers are being unreasonable and/or hysterical and KS is not a big deal.
You have the owners/buyers, who say KS is a dealbreaker, that they went through the KS nightmare and no matter what they did Dobbin was never completely comfortable or sound.
But only one party really benefits from claiming KS is not a big deal. It’s not the horse that benefits, and it’s certainly not the buyer.
Remember professionals tend to have the bottom line in mind as they ride these horses. A horse that is lame is valueless. Their end goal is not the partnership with the horse, its the partnership with their clients’ wallet. Amateurs are a little more soft; they tend to want a partnership with Dobbin, and they’re going be quicker to investigate mild idiosyncrasies than the pro that thinks they can ride Dobbin through it.
KS is a grey area matter. You have some horses with KS findings who are unrideable, and some horses who are rideable. The majority live somewhere in the middle of these two extremes, with physical complaints and discomforts associated at either end. KS has many symptoms besides a limp or a localized sore spot in their back. KS comes with secondary problems too; persistent ulcers, bilateral suspensory issues, hock problems, SI issues, postural changes, even hoof growth can be impacted by KS.
Because it is an uncurable disease, buyers are quick to walk away. But it is not untreatable. Fixing the feet and removing the stall should be the first order of go in any KS horse’s rehab plan. Then think about therapeutic modalities or surgery. More vets need to push for their clients to adjust management first: without these changes their therapies and surgeries are not as successful.
When treating KS, most vets aim to break the pain cycle first. This is because of all the secondary injuries that come from KS compensation. With the hocks sore and the SI inflamed, you can’t reasonably expect a horse to work over their back and build better muscle to help their KS. So you give them sarapin, robaxin, Osphos, other little pain meds to break up the pain cycle, build up their muscle, and improve their posture and hopefully improve their body condition to the point their body is no longer reactive to the KS. It is just one small piece of the jiggsaw that is the horse’s body and when KS is involved other parts of the body are too. It is never just about the KS.
One has to remember too, that you can never rule out pain in a horse. You can only diagnose it. They are prey animals that evolved over millennia of consistent predatory pressures to disguise their pain and injury. Which brings me back to whether or not there are genuinely asymptomatic KS horses out there.
Tons of professionals claim they have one in their barn, but look closely at that horse. Is it quirky? Is it girthy? Does it have ulcers? Does it need routine injections? Does it need special shoes? Does it toe-drag? Does it hold its tail stiff with rider weight or while on the lunge? Does it lunge? Does it have to be ridden tactfully, is it not an ‘ammie horse’? Does it have a traveling forelimb lameness? Does it have trouble lunging or doing collected work? Is dressage its ‘least favorite phase’ or is it tense? Does it stumble? Does it grind its teeth? Does it move away from the mounting block or fuss with being saddled?
Most people think KS has to palpitate and buck/bolt/misbehave to be symptomatic. But those symptoms are one of the final symptoms to transpire, well after the disease progresses. If you get to that point with the horse, you missed the smaller signs of its chronic discomfort for a long time.
10 Likes
I couldn’t agree with Beowulf more. I don’t want to turn this into a KS thread, but as someone who has ridden 5 symptomatic KS horses (and owned two of them), diagnosed via Xray, the consistency of the symptoms, though subtle, are remarkable. These horses were in different programs, different owners, different barns, different trainers, farriers, turnout situations, different bodyworkers, different feed, different saddles, different everything. They were different ages and in different disciplines. Yet the symptoms were consistent across the board. They performed their jobs to different degrees of success. I cannot say that any one of them were completely pain free. They were just different levels of stoic. I would not willingly own a KS horse again. But that’s my “opinion”.
4 Likes
I am a research scientist in Orthopedic Spine. I do all sorts of weird and strange things focused on human spine disease, mechanics, and reconstruction. At the same time I also work in other ares of orthopedics, including sports med and trauma.
One thing I can say is that radiographic findings are only as good as the moment they are taken. As one of the team doctors (Colorado Rockies) here pointed out, ALL rotator cuff repairs re-tear within 6 weeks or so radiographically. However, the majority of patients NEVER show symptoms again. If they were to treat patients based on the radiographs everyone would need surgery.
The point is that KS is a completely understudied condition. There is a good chance that the reality of KS is that close to 60% of all horses have a form (we need huge clinical radiographic studies) based on the simple abstract showing only a tiny fraction of cases. I think that study was still underpowered for symptom association. The associated symptoms of KS are so vague as to be directly associated with KS is too easy via simple observation and radiology.
In one of my clinical spine studies EVERY patient reports pain, regardless of condition, even if they are athletes or blue collar workers. The concept of symptoms as described at this point resulting in training issues is like saying blue cars get into accidents.
14 Likes
It most definitely is the horse that benefits. Yes, manage them to the best of your ability and finances. But train them and ride them, don’t let those mild idiosyncrasies stand in the way of them learning to be solid citizens. There are no homes for horses without training. The pasture ornament/companion horse home is a myth. They have a home until someone gets sick or old or broke, and then they filter back through rescues that aren’t capable of supporting all of them. If a horse is serviceably sound it needs to be a riding animal doing a job. That is its only security in life. If you discount as many horses from having a job as have abnormal radiographs (of whatever) then you are discounting the majority of horses, and their welfare is at risk.
As for the kissing spine (and again, really anything), I think I can speak to why I and a lot of professionals feel the need to try to keep expectations reasonable. I’ve ridden several horses later supposedly diagnosed with kissing spine. Basically the stories are the same: horse was doing all the things with me, went on to homes and glowing reports of doing all the things, then a one-off behavior one day basically of the “it’s a horse” variety led owner to 101 vet appointments with a final result of kissing spine on radiographs and therefore the horse can’t possibly be expected to do all the things. Or any of the things. I went to move one over in the crossties because its butt was blocking my path and the lady told me it couldn’t possibly move out of my way because of its kissing spine. I’m fully sympathetic to actual issues, but there’s a line.
10 Likes
