Possible to find ottb prospect under 10k?

[beowulf]

Claiming Kissing Spine is “no big deal” in a symptomatic horse robs the horse of a chance to be treated for it.

If someone believes KS is not a big deal, they are unlikely to treat it. If they don’t treat it, the horse lives with chronic pain to the point of soft tissue failure like bilateral suspensories or even SI strains. Some develop behavioral issues and are passed from barn to barn marked as “pro rides”, “projects” or ‘quirky horses needing a soft hand/quiet ride’. Some develop behavioral issues mistaken for training issues and are cowboyed into programs to the point of learned helplessness. Others can’t reasonably tolerate the level of work asked of them and become dangerous to ride or handle.

Here is the thing about training and riding KS horses: you cannot train through pain. A horse in pain cannot reasonably yield its body to you in ways that hurt it. This includes under saddle, where KS symptoms are most evident.

Your scenario is the extreme end, the answer being somewhere in the middle. Many KS horses are servicably sound and can do just fine in LL riding programs with the right management and therapies.

But… If they are ‘servicably sound’, they are not actually asymptomatic, are they?

[vxf111]

It’s an N of “way too small” but we’ve had 2 KS horses in the barn. One was mine. Both did have back pain. Both had the ligament snipping surgery. Both recovered flawlessly, went back into work, and are better than they were before with no symptoms.

If all else was perfect on a horse with similar x-rays, I would take a chance FOR THE RIGHT PRICE. But there’s the kicker. On the right horse and for the right price. The binary “kissing spine is a nothing burger” or “kissing spine is the kiss of death” dichotomy misses the point. Like nearly everything else on a horse there are nuances and matters of degree. And a horse with a flaw is going to have to cost less or come with some different assurances (perhaps lease-to-own or similar) than an otherwise equivalent horse without the flaw. The seller who refuses to accept KS can be a problem is often asking too much for the horse by dismissing the risk, the buyer who refuses to touch anything with even a shadow on the films is missing out on good horses by overvaluing the risk.

But such is buying and selling, right? I won’t have a cribber. I am sure I am missing out on some great horses. I’m not worried, you can have them. I’m me and you’re you and we’re allowed to have different tolerances.

[beowulf]

@vxf111

The binary “kissing spine is a nothing burger” or “kissing spine is the kiss of death” dichotomy misses the point. Like nearly everything else on a horse there are nuances and matters of degree.

Right. This is the prevailing point I tried to make above, but it was twisted into “owner says asking a KS horse to move over in the isle is unreasonable”. When we’re talking specifically symptomatic horses, it does not benefit them to claim the KS isn’t a big deal and ride them through it without therapy and thoughtful management. I thought this point was clear, but I guess not.

The majority of KS horses live in the middle of either end. The majority of amateurs and professionals can’t diagnose a lame horse and don’t know what they don’t know. Many sellers/pros don’t have a horse in their program long enough to recognize patterns of chronic discomfort associated with the disease.

I’d take a KS horse in a heartbeat provided a few things; the primary one being how the horse clinically presents that day. The rads are a small picture and even the angle in which you stand to take them can significantly alter the appearance of severity. The right program, exercise, and therapies can help treat the disease to the point the horse is comfortable enough in its body to be ridden.

I trust my program, though. I would not touch a KS horse with a ten foot pole if I didn’t have the resources to turn that horse out 24/7 and didn’t have a good farrier. And I certainly wouldn’t advise an ammy on a limited budget, who can’t afford to take risks and is at the mercy of the boarding barn’s turnout schedule, to buy a horse with KS.

[Synthesis]

@beowulf

I’d take a KS horse in a heartbeat provided a few things; the primary one being how the horse clinically presents that day. The rads are a small picture and even the angle in which you stand to take them can significantly alter the appearance of severity. The right program, exercise, and therapies can help treat the disease to the point the horse is comfortable enough in its body to be ridden.

I trust my program, though. I would not touch a KS horse with a ten foot pole if I didn’t have the resources to turn that horse out 24/7 and didn’t have a good farrier. And I certainly wouldn’t advise an ammy on a limited budget, who can’t afford to take risks and is at the mercy of the boarding barn’s turnout schedule, to buy a horse with KS.

See that’s why I took on my two. They don’t have KS that I’m aware of but even if it is/was the case? I ride and manage them in a way that would minimize/eliminate discomfort.

One has sensitive feet, the other doesn’t. Both are on 24/7 turnout 90% of the time. One has composite shoes that make a world of difference, the other is barefoot and getting boots for summer work on sun baked ground. One gets low access to grass/sugars, the other can have more. They get managed as individuals but both are fantastic horses with great temperaments.

[Lord_Helpus]

I read about 1/2 the replies, but did not see a lot or any that recommended buying straight out of the shed row. To do this you need to 1. have an excellent eye to assess what you are looking at — or have a friend who does. 2. Know trainers who are honest and who truly want their show horses to find great homes. 4. Have a connection to exercise riders; many have started out their riding life in hunters. 5 Know, or have access to a race track vet who will be honest when assessing a horse for a new life as a “riding horse” (NB: in racetrack lingo, horses all into 1 of 2 categories: a race horse or a riding horse.

[Bristol_Bay]

https://www.houndrunfarm.com/horses-for-sale

Please, please someone on this thread go buy Flat Out of Credit and post about him all the time so I’ll feel like he’s in my life.

[Rel6]

Just learned she placed within hours of listing. I had a friend try to get her and she was gone that day.

[trubandloki]

@Rel6

Just learned she placed within hours of listing. I had a friend try to get her and she was gone that day.

That is great news! I am glad she found a soft landing. She is freaking cute.

[Paint_Party]

I am glad that I no longer have my own horse property because I have been known to lack impulse control when it comes to cute and/or flashy OTTBs.

[endlessclimb]

I saw him earlier today. He’s CUTE.

[Synthesis]

@Lord_Helpus

I read about 1/2 the replies, but did not see a lot or any that recommended buying straight out of the shed row. To do this you need to 1. have an excellent eye to assess what you are looking at — or have a friend who does. 2. Know trainers who are honest and who truly want their show horses to find great homes. 4. Have a connection to exercise riders; many have started out their riding life in hunters. 5 Know, or have access to a race track vet who will be honest when assessing a horse for a new life as a “riding horse” (NB: in racetrack lingo, horses all into 1 of 2 categories: a race horse or a riding horse.

I sort of did this by studying conformation and bloodlines of OTTBs Denny Emerson and Darryl Kinney bought and developed over close to a 10 year period.

This is what I do.

• look at the conformation. That means I look at the topline and overall structure but ignore the underline and most of the chest width. Those will change dramatically with different feeding/work and the chest width will change dramatically with good lateral work.
• look at feet knowing I’m going to spend a year growing them out and developing heel/angles in all 4
• look at the walk, listen to the trot rhythm anything off with eyes closed first and then watch.
• look at the ease of handling.
• zoom in very closely on the eyes and nostrils for pain signals.
• read the race reports for temperament info.

[Tha_Ridge]

This is along the lines of what I do as well, except I don’t keep mine for a year so I’m looking for good feet to start (except for my current disaster, but I like him so maybe he’ll stay longer ), and I watch race replays, not so much to see them during the race but get a good idea of movement before and after. Most replays are free on track websites.

[meupatdoes]

@CBoylen

As for the kissing spine (and again, really anything), I think I can speak to why I and a lot of professionals feel the need to try to keep expectations reasonable. I’ve ridden several horses later supposedly diagnosed with kissing spine. Basically the stories are the same: horse was doing all the things with me, went on to homes and glowing reports of doing all the things, then a one-off behavior one day basically of the “it’s a horse” variety led owner to 101 vet appointments with a final result of kissing spine on radiographs and therefore the horse can’t possibly be expected to do all the things. Or any of the things. I went to move one over in the crossties because its butt was blocking my path and the lady told me it couldn’t possibly move out of my way because of its kissing spine. I’m fully sympathetic to actual issues, but there’s a line.

The number of times I have been blamed for people’s issues with a horse that is only ever problematic when I’m not in the same zip code is why I stopped training professionally.

Like, “Oh, you fell off your horse while I was sitting on my sofa watching a netflix and you were taking a lesson with a different trainer? And your other trainer who was standing by his head when he reared has deduced after careful consideration this must be my fault? My bad!”

At least in your case they have the courtesy to blame “kissing spines”, but we all know what the problem really is.

(And ottbs in particular get the shit end of this stick because they are often purchased by people who are “on a budget” and have zero plans to pay for professional training or take a riding lesson ever.)

[endlessclimb]

Unless you were on the farm, this would be very difficult to do as many of these OTTBs had issues that are not disclosed on facebook. Just fyi.

[endlessclimb]

@CBoylen

Basically the stories are the same: horse was doing all the things with me, went on to homes and glowing reports of doing all the things, then a one-off behavior one day basically of the “it’s a horse” variety led owner to 101 vet appointments with a final result of kissing spine on radiographs and therefore the horse can’t possibly be expected to do all the things. Or any of the things.

I know someone who did this, and ultimately ended up euthing a 5 year old. I kept telling her “he’s been out for work for months, him acting like a fruit loop is not the kissing spine is the crazy amount of food you’re giving him and the lack of work.”

Can’t wait to see what the hypochondriac finds in her new horse. Already I see it starting by her tone on FB posts.

[vxf111]

This person has a GOOD EYE

[Highflyer1]

https://www.facebook.com/223049435573/posts/10166383963745574/?flite=scwspnss

Someone snap this one up so I’m not tempted!

[Jenerationx]

https://canterusa.org/horses/listings/lola-girl/

[Mander]

His photo loaded last and I audibly gasped when it finally popped up. What a good looking horse.

[Synthesis]

That’s the method I’ve used previously, from a distance. Never laid eyes or hands on in person. (Edit: I’m a 20 hour drive from the closest Canadian TB race track. I don’t get to see them in person first)