Post your Feet Pictures! (AKA: Good Hoof Stuff Every Horse Owner Should Know!)

Yes, NRB, you have the right idea.
Just to help clarify in case others are confused, here is EventGurlie’s pic. This is very generalized in that I am using angles to indicate where the correct shape of the foot should fall…since every horse is different and we don’t know what’s inside, we know that these angles are not perfect, but give us a guide to discuss a better shaped foot.

Note that the heel is only slightly underrun (compare red line (ideal) to green (actual). See how the two lines are much closer as the heel is shortened? And note that the hairline doesn’t look to bad, but diverges from the straight as the heel runs forwad and pulls it. Then, if I take and put a line across where I want to start getting the heels more correctly placed…note how the heel shortens, and the whole foot starts to come into a better alignment. I would also need to move the shoe back toward the red line to offer support for the heels.

The frog: according to Bowker’s and other studies, the frog should touch the ground when the horse is standing on a hard surface. It should probably be sharing the weight with the two points on the heel where the wall hooks into the bars. In order for this to happen, it would tend to be slightly higher than the wall (as it compresses). But, most agree that it should taper down to meet the sole and is only higher in the rear most part of the foot. An important point in having the frog touch the gound is that the propiorceptors are mostly located in the frog and rear of the foot. These are the sensors that send messages to the brain (actually the spine) to tell the horse where and how he is stepping.

Your concerns about the coming wet weather and bruising are understood. However, if the spacial orinetation of the coffin bone is correct, then you shouldn’t experience bruising. But, in most cases, even if the coffin bone is correctly oriented to the gound plane, in many cases of imbalanced feet, it will reside to low in the foot and thus already be applying pressure to the corium, which is enhanced by the sole softening caused during wet weather…resulting in bruising. I know that doesn’t help you now, but if you plan to leave the horse barefoot, then this should be a goal.

Yes, a healthy hoof should show some concavity, however, not all feet are the same and some (like drafts) are more genetically prone to being flatter. But, generally, the healthier the foot, the stonger the interior attachments, the higher the coffin bone sets in relationship to the ground plane, and the the more concavity can be attained. You are right, if you can flex the sole with your finger, it is generally to thin. This, however, can generally be fixed and a thicker sole is more the result of a balanced trim and environment rather than genetics.

You raise an important issue about the wild horse studies. But, I think that those who study would generally be the first to agree that wild doesn’t = domestic (there are some that don’t agree, and so far from what I see, they have not been as successful in their efforts as those who agree). The important thing was to note what parts of the foot were used (and how) to support the coffin bone/foot. When these particular principles are applied correctly, it is apparent from anecdotal evidence, as well as recent studies, that addressing these differences in domestic horses are generally all that is needed to create a much healthier, stronger, and correctly formed foot. Their attempt has not been so much to match form as to match function. I think that few would debate that alignment of the boney column and proper functioning of internal structures to provide optimal shock absorbtion, correct placement of breakover to provide optimal movement, or correct spacial orientation of the coffin bone to prevent it from pressing on the solar corium (thus thinning and even bruising the sole) are, or should be, that different between domestic and wild horses.

Well…just my opinion, but I admit bias because I see these methods fixing bad feet nearly every day.

Opps…forgot to attach the pic

OK…that was freakin’ huge…I’ll try again.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

compare.JPG

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:
Robby,
On the right front, on the side view, the toes don’t scream at me that they are too long, but it does appear that the foot is too far forward and the heels are quite underrun. I would imagine that a radiograph will show you a broken back hoof axis and I’d love to see a higher up photo so we could see where his boney column is in relation to his hoof.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your’e developing a good eye Bensmom
Here’s a couple of things to consider: See how the hairline goes up a little at the toe and curves down a lttle at the heel? That needs to be straightened out by adjusting the bottom to take the pressure off…cutting back the toe a little and cutting down the heel…hence making it go back to where it should be. It is long in this direction \ rather than the usuall case of high heels in this direction | …does that make sense? Thus trimming to lower it will also move it back. (I know you know this Bensmom, but this is for the benefit of others…heard some complaints about this getting too technical).

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>On the front view photo, it appears, and this may be distortion, that there is a slight flare on the outside of the hoof and the coronet band seems to back this up – it is very slight though, if it exists at all. I’d be interested to check the medial/lateral balance on him as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, questionable as to distortion and angle, but there are possibilities.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>On the left front, the heels look more underrun to me than on the right. And for some reason, the toe looks longer to me on this foot as well. Again, not much, and since I’m spending so much time with this stuff, I may be seeing things, but I also see what may be slight flare on the outside of this foot as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Think I would have to agree again…but again distortion and camera angle come into play and may present something that isn’t there. I also think that the left is slightly longer and more underrun than the right.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>From what you said on the other thread, it sounds as if your farrier is willing to work with you, so what I’d recommend would be to shoot a set of AP and lateral radiographs, and sit down and see what you have. You also will want to check and see where the support for his leg falls – I’m going to hazard a guess that most of his weight is being carried by his heels, and it isn’t centered over the widest part of his frog, which can not only mean that his fetlocks are rotating too far with every stride (i.e. not having a support system under them) but it also strains the ddft, the coffin joint and the navicular, so it can set him up for problems. If you can get this right before he really enters work, I think you’ll have a much sounder event horse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow, this is getting a little technical…we don’t want to scare people But, you raise some good issues and things that should be of concern to all that have underrun heels and feet too far forward.

Bensmom…you spend too much time reading!

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

this is the after.

“Shoot me now! Shoot me now!”
Bugs Bunny

Thanks slb, I’ve already been keeping the EPSM idea in the back of my mind, however he seems to be blooming on his diet with nearly 20% fat INCLUDING oats (carbs). I did notice an improvement in muscle building on the higher fat diet, which has enabled me to condition the catching mostly out of him - although right now, with his toes so long, I don’t think I can do much for him in that regard.

The think about chopping the toe off is: his axis is STILL broken. The angle of his heel is so flat, it is only about 15-20 degrees off the ground, and the rest of the tubules seem to line up with it. If his toe wasn’t chopped off, his toe looks like it would be about a foot long!

Fortunately, my horse has good hoof, consistancy and growth. His feet are quite long right now, but not flat like some of the “pasture feet” I’ve seen.

The selenium is a good question. He does get supplimented with magnesium in his electrolytes. The vet’s coming Saturday for spring shots, and I was thinking of having some blood work done…

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Although not generally called for, radical dubbing of the toe would help get the foot back under him and get rid of the broken axis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can it correct a broken axis if the angle of the trim still appears to be at the wrong angle? Maybe I just don’t understand.

I should also note that his hoof walls are not symmetrical, one side being higher than the other and at different angles, front and back, looking generally unbalanced. They didn’t look like that 2 years ago…

Right now I don’t have time to read through all 20 (!) pages, but if I took some pictures of my horse’s hooves would someone tell me if everything is okay?

Dressager
No two smart men ever agree on anything -Harry Truman

Hi guys…I just wanted to put a few thoughts out there about weak feet and shoeing to fix them…

I have recently been reading some threads about how owners have noted that some shoeing applications…egg bars in particular…have increased or created underrun heels. The replies from the professional farriers and trimmers were interesting.

While we have touched on the frog touching the ground or being supported, I don’t think we really noted its importance in getting underrun or contracted heels fixed. It is pirmary to affording the correct support that allows the heels to grow correctly! Without correct heel support, the frog could prolapse through the shoe. Additionally, an already weak heeled hoof wall would only be supported on the wall and not on the structures in between that are primary in getting the foot to open up and move back. Further loading of the hoof wall (applying forces directly to) will only cause the weak wall to continue to move inward/forward, or even crush it.

The foot does not bear weight on the hoof wall alone…it should be distributed thought the foot. The rear 2/3 of the foot should be the primary weight bearing surface and the frog plays an extremely important role in this.

In addition to this, if the toes are not adequately shortened and point of breakover addresed, and the heels brough down…then the foot cannot be returned to optimal form.

Hope this wasn’t too confusing…

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Meg!:
Well, the whole story is he developed an abcess one week after being reset and bleeding all over.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you mean that the sole was bleeding from the trim or there was blood coming out of the abscess blowout area?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Vet thinks maybe the abcess was already there, and just didn’t have anywhere to go as it was under his shoe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This doesn’t sound good either. Can’t really tell because I wasn’t there, but an abscess under the shoe sounds like misapplication of the trim or shoe or both.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have another mare that bled when he did her feet, and she is fine. The pony with abcess bled much more. I was a little put off because the farriers explanation was that the mare has funky feet, and she has bled before. I couldn’t get a specific explanation about why my gelding bled. I’ve never had any trouble before, and all of ours have great feet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is this a different farrier than usual, or a new one? Any time a farrier draws blood, it should be questioned. Any time blood is drawn, there is a chance of damage to the sensative tissue and infection. If blood is drawn on the sole, the sole is being trimmed to thin. If is is drawn elsewhere, there better be a darn good explanation…not just “funky feet”.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Speaking of clinics, I should probably tell you all about the Ovnicek clinic coming up in the Northeast:
* April 4th - 6th, 2003 - Gibsonia, PA: 1 Evening Lecture or Full 3 Day Clinic with Lectures, Demonstrations & Hands-on work. For more information contact Shelly at: (724) 443-0260 or e-mail: myojr@zoominternet.net

For a full brochure of the event you can download a pdf at: www.hopeforsoundness.com/miscfiles/nbhc-pitpa3day03.pdf

*  April 10th - 13th, 2003 - Columbus, OH: "Equine Affaire" Gene Ovnicek will have 2 Lectures and 1 Demonstrations at the 4 day event. For more information about the event, please visit their website: <a href="http://www.equineaffaire.com">www.equineaffaire.com</a>

Lecture 1: How to recognize Navicular Disease before it becomes irreversible.

Lecture 2: Prevent Lameness & Improve Performance using Natural Hoof Care Guidelines.

Demo 1: Emergency Care for Laminitis; What you can do before the vet is available.

There are other clinic dates listed on their website: www.hopeforsoundness.com

I highly recommend that you attend if you get the chance. I was not able to attend his lectures last year at the Equine Affaire in MA, but was at his booth when it got over, the response from the attendees was terrific. They couldn’t say enough about what they had learned.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb…

Now that I think about it, he probably is carb-intolerant. He’s now on about 20 lbs of hay a day (he’s a 1300 lb 16.2hh boy) and maybe 3 lbs of grain. About 3 lbs of his hay is Dengie (an alfalfa/molasses/mineral mix) to keep weight on him in the winter. In the summer he’s out on pasture (not lush LOL) and less hay.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I had a horse that used to really react when the shoes were being nailed and he would be sore after shoeing. He would not react to just the pounding with the hammer so it was actually the driving of the nails. I suspected that he was very mildly laminitic in some way. Not one vet would agree with me and he was never diagnosed this way <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

KC was the same way…we could never figure out why he was so hard to shoe (danced around, wouldn’t stand, grinding teeth etc). We got the laminitis/founder taken care of. Now he’ll stand ground tied to be shod.

Bensmom: If he always gets hot nails…maybe consider glue on shoes? I used Singafoo shoes on KC (we used heartbars, but they also come in eggbar and regular)…a complicated process to get them on. But, they lasted a full 6-8 weeks without a thrown shoe (this was a horse turned out in heartbars without bell boots ). This gave his hoof wall the chance to heal and thicken so he can have shoes nailed on (with the smallest nails my farrier could find). Either way…I’d say no blood should be drawn. His toes must have been cut too short.

This thread is amazing…

~katelyn~

slb – I noticed that he seemed to be taking “swipes” at natural trimming methods, but was espousing a return to the proper balance of the horse’s foot – would I be correct, or at least along the right path if I were to suppose that the biggest difference in the two “methods” is that the natural trim/natural balance is looking for the clues to that proper alignment in the outside of the foot versus always shoeing to x-rays?

It seems to me that the best “approach” is to get the trim as close to perfect as possible and then to only use shoes for performance and/or correctional modifcations – i.e. yes, Buzzy’s bar wedge shoes are a great addition to keeping him sound, but if his feet aren’t trimmed correctly before the shoes are applied, you can forget them helping. Does that make sense?

I’ve talked lately with lots of vets and farriers, and the idea of the correctly balanced foot transerring the loading/motion forces correctly up the leg, which just makes so much sense to me, seems like a foreign concept to many of the professionals I’ve talked to. Why? Am I so simplistically educated that I’m making something that is way more complicated that I can see too easy? Or is it actually sort of a foreign concept to these guys?

For example, in Tom Ivers’s Bowed Tendon Book, he mentions a filly with a check ligament injury. She’d get trimmed, and race/work fine for about 3-3.5 weeks and then come up lame. If she was trimmed and reset every 3.5 weeks, she’d stay sound, so that is what they did. Buzz will start to have his ankle flare up if he goes more than 4 weeks between trims – that much toe growth will irritate his DJD in his ankle – it changes the rotational force just enough – and he’ll start to be sore on it, with inflammation in the joint. My farrier was very reistant to giving me four week resets, but I insisted and the little monster is much better.

I guess what I don’t understand is why someone who is pretty good at his craft such as my farrier (slb, I know you have concerns about some of his ideas, but at least he is open and willing to work with me, even if he disagrees, and he’s the only one here that will do that) would tell me about another client’s horse, who has been having undefined lameness issues, “<grumble, grumble> I don’t know why they are computer hoof balancing this horse – they should get him sound and then try to get his feet perfect.”

What did the computer show? That his angle on the lame leg was severely broken back, and he was intermittantly sore in his heels because of it and it was also causing him to be sore in the shoulder. Well, duh. Take my orthotics away and make me walk a couple of miles and my hips and knees will be out, and inflamed. Why do people think horses are different?

Anyway, off soapbox now – Martha, I’d like to see more pics of Java as well.

Thanks!

Libby

Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique

I have the digital camera all set up and I plan to take pictures tomorrow. I’m excited to hear what you all have to say…

The bber previously known as 5mgn…

“The sweetest of all sounds is praise.” --Xenophon

I have to say…I love this thread, being a fellow hoof nut and bain to my own wonder-farrier…but SHEESH PEOPLE!!! I can’t keep up with it!! I try and try…but the pages just keep growing and growing! Grrr…more reading to do…

WOW, Fran’s here.
Welcome to the COTH BB.Thank you for the info on the Tuffs Natural Hoofcare Conference.
Regards John

Hi Inspired…
Yes, the stifle problem could be related to his feet, but more often I think if slight EPSM, mineral deficiencies (specifically magnesium and/or selenium and vit. E). Have you tried a high fat/low carb diet with added Se+E?

I think you are right, exercise is the best. Riding at a walk should not be too taxing while you wait for the farrier.

It sounds like your guys feet are long and flat looking as opposed to upright? Although not generally called for, radical dubbing of the toe would help get the foot back under him and get rid of the broken axis.

Good luck and keep us updated with the results of the trim.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Well…they don’t exactly shoe to promote underrun heels…they shoe to promote long toe, the heels just follow!

Old track tradition dictates that horses run better with long toes…short breakover shortens stride, long breakover lengthens stride. But, as we have discussed here…point of breakover is not at the end of the toe, it is at the end of the coffin bone. Additionally, enhancing breakover can create many things…it can either lengthen or shorten stride, depending on how it is addressed and what the intent is.

I could hazard a guess at why you see it more on younger horses than older…those younger horses will have a shorter career because they will fall into some sort of typical hoof/leg injury/pain that prevents them from furthering their careers. The older horses have better balanced feet and therefore can continue in their jobs longer without problems.

I have a link somewhere to a winning TB that had its career suddenly ended as a result of it becoming so over at the knee…couldn’t even stand straight. The person that now owns him balanced his feet and he is now sound and standing correctly!

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Gee Bensmom…hope I pass this test

I think that there are two big differences between “natural” methods and “traditional”. One is the word “natural” and the discovery that feral horses and domestic horses have some things in common and therefore shouldn’t we look at the “natural” foot to determine what might be optimal form and function…especially since we have not been able to define it since we first started thinking about it around 200 years ago. The second thing is really the opposite of what you are implying, but needs some clarifcation. While the “natural” methods…at least Ovnicek’s and a couple of others…seem to look to the outside for landmarks to help determine correct form, those landmarks are really indicating where the coffin bone resides in the foot, as well as some other internal structural details. Traditional methods more often look to the outside to determine how to shape the foot. The important things are addressing angles and getting them parallel with pastern/shoulder angles. We discussed how this doesn’t work as those angles are not fixed and subject to change as the foot is correctly or incorrectly aligned. Actually, Ovnicek and others promote the use of x-rays for proper balance and alignment…much in the same manner that your computer program works. However, they never look at external angles. Those fall into place as the foot approaches optimal form.

Yes, you are right on Getting the underlying trim as correct as possible is the key to any problem. Shoeing then becomes optional…sometimes necessary to facilitate healing, but always optional. Generally, shoes have theraputic value…like a cast does when healing a broken arm. They also have protective value as you noted. And sometimes, they are neccessary for very particular cases that just can’t seem to be corrected, but those cases are very rare and generally related to conformational flaws.

For some reason, optimal form creating optimal function does seem to be some strange concept to many professionals. “Why” is the question of the decade. I have no idea. Many farriers argue that they were taught this 20-30 years ago…could it be that schooling has digressed, or understanding of these concepts are no longer “natural”. My husband and I talk all the time about how farriery is a fine blend of mechanics, art, and science. I theorize that as we move into a more technical world and rely more on “skilled” professionals to provide services for us, that we have all lost skills and knowledge that our parents and grandparents had…unfortunately that includes some of the skilled professionals. For instance, when I was a kid, nearly everyone I knew fixed their own cars (unless it was a real big problem). Now the cars are so hi-tech that you almost need a degree to change the tires. Other than some teenage boys, I no longer know anyone that can fix their own car…these skills are lost. I think the same is true of farriers and other professionals that rely on their eye, hands, and some mechanical thinking to be good at their professions. They simply seem to have lost the skills, so they come to school to learn what has been taught for decades, but without the “natural” background that their predicesors had befoe them.

As far as vets go…they are given a crash course on the hoof and its workings. At Cornell, the vet students have a one week course in trimming and shoeing taught to them by the farrier students! The only other thing they learn is from a text book…I wonder if they even disect a foot, or if they just see drawings and maybe a prepared sagital section in the lab.

I think you are also right…sometimes way to much thinking goes into all this. If the horse has no problems when first trimmed, and then has a problem a few weeks later…how hard can that be to figure that the foot has changed and that the horse needs to be maintained within a very narrow range of perameters to funtion painfree? This isn’t rocket science.

Don’t get me wrong Bensmom…I am not that down on your farrier. I may say some harsh things, but I feel that he is doing the best he can to try and gain an understanding and help your horses. We don’t all come to the table with the same skills and knowledge…if we did, there would be no discussion and we would stagnate But, I hear what you are saying. I know a young farrier that used to apprentice with hubby…he is very knowledgable, thinks out of the box, and has great skill…but he often trims to short (doesn’t have to trim so often that way) and is easily swayed into following “short cut” methods that only get him into trouble. His approach would also be to attempt to get the horse sound and then try to get his feet “perfect”. They just don’t see the connection…maybe it is to simple, maybe there is a lack ofunderstanding of a contenuity between external and interal form and function.

And you are so right…why don’t they think of horses like humans? I think that there is mass confusion in the equine world as we move from a livestock mode into a companion/pet mode. I think we have to distance ourselves from livestock in order to justify certain things. But, we don’t have that distance with pets. As horses make that transition…or rather we make that transition in our thinking…we are starting to look at them as having the same feelings and problems that humans do…and for the same reasons. Given several more decades, we may just see a change in how professionals view horses…there is definately a change in how owners view them.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Went digging and lo and behold, found some photos of Rhodey’s feet that were taken in PA before he was shipped. I did some editing so you can see. These aren’t the greatest shots, but my thought is he’s become really underrun in a year.

“Don’t mince words, don’t be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive”
Madonna

Before_After_Right_Front_copy.jpg

wow…i just found this thread and have spent the last 2 hours reading it. it is fabulous!

so now i have a question of my own. about a year ago i bought a big 16.2 QH as a resale project. his feet, esp. the front, were pretty bad in that they didnt match at all. the left front was okay…a little long of toe, short of heel, and just generally flat, but not too bad. the right front however was totally different. much more upright (although not clubby) with high heel, not much frog and a short toe. the horse passed his flexion tests in all four legs, although the vet thought there was a little something in the right front, but couldnt pinpoint what/where. i didnt get x-rays because this horse was a bargin and i honestly didnt really have the money (i know, poor excuse…). also, this vet hardly ever gives a clean soundness check for any horse…we call him the lameness nazi . when i got this guy i was a working student in southern pines, so for 3 months he had a great farrier who managed to get both feet in better balance and more matching…the left still had a tendancy to be a bit flat and the right a little upright, but much better. then i went off to college, and the horse went home to alabama, where there is a shortage of good farriers (at least in my area). my mom had recently switched to a new guy, because of some personal issues with the old guy. ive never met the new farrier or had a chance to talk with him, but im not a hugh fan of what has happened to our horses feet. but i digress, thats another story for another day.

anywho, i have now brought the before mentioned horse up to school with me to work with a bit more and then find another home for him. his feet are right back where they were when i got him! if not worse! ive found a farrier up here who im happy with who has shod him once, and is again working on evening up the feet. now this horse has never, and will never be the greatest mover in the world, but i have noticed since i have him back in work (he was out of work for ~6 months) that he feels slightly uneven in the right front. defintly not lame at all but just slightly different. back during his soundness exam, i wondered if the slight something in the right front was due to his foot, and i also wonder if it is now.

i dont have any pictures, im sorry, and i realize that without actually seeing the horse, it is hard to give advice about this kind of thing, but i was just wondering if anybody had any opinions/ideas about it.

hope that all made sense. thanks.

Hi Rugbug,

Again…not an expert opinion, but these definitely look much better than an average shoeing job. The lines on the horses hoofs are stress lines…likely nutritional…or disease related. They could be related to shoeing and hoof moisture content but the other reasons are more likely.

www3.sympatico.ca/vnc

I got my pictures up! Please let me know if I need to take more at different angles, etc. I took these right after I was done with my ride and dusted off his hoof with a brush (as well as I could- someone else was holding him). Please excuse the sand.

Hoof pictures

Dressager
No two smart men ever agree on anything -Harry Truman