Post your Feet Pictures! (AKA: Good Hoof Stuff Every Horse Owner Should Know!)

[subk]

Thanks for the articles!

Question (hope it hasn’t already been discussed): Why are underrun heels so incredibly prevelant at the track. I know that “tradition” has alot more weight with trainers than science, but I don’t get it. Go to Churchill and watch the paddock and underrun heels exisit in more than 50% of the horses. Higher in younger ages. I don’t beleive it’s genetic because I’ve seen it fixed again and again with OTTB. I swear I think trainers shoe intentionally to create underrun heels! What’s going on?

[slb]

Shadytrake…welcome to the board and to this ever-growing thread…we can’t wait for your pics

I think that the one thing to watch for is that the heels stay nice and open…that they don’t get contracted…if he is barefoot, then is can happen on soft ground, but good trimming addresses this. As long as the foot has good form, it will have good function…that optimal circulation and self cleaning will serve you well and be your biggest aid in preventing thrush.

IMO, probably 90% or more of thrush cases are on horses with contracted or otherwise compromised feet.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[inspired]

I’ll take a quick stab, but I think you’ll want to wait for someone else that actually knows…

At a glance, they look pretty good. The right front looks like it could have a flare, but it’s a bit hard to tell from the picture. The hinds look like there’s a bit of a wave in the cornary band, but I’m not sure if that’s an illusion of the hair-line. The heel looks like it needs to come back a bit, although it’s hard to tell with the shoes on. The angle looks about right. I don’t know anything about ridges, etc…

We’ve certainly seen worse on this thread! …but really, be patient, and someone who actually IS in the know will respond.

[mcmIV]

I think SLB should be salaried for this thread. What’s your going rate SLB?!

I need to settle in and really read the latest info! Browsing from work doesn’t do it.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **

[flshgordon]

I for one am hoping this thread doesn’t DIE because I am getting a new farrier—1st appointment is in 1.5 weeks. I have one TB mare that is currently barefoot & will be until she weans her foal, as well as a show hunter. I’m curious to see what he will suggest for both of them–I will be taking pictures & asking for opinions as soon as I meet him.

[slb]

Bensmom…there are almost 50 NB trimmers listed in FL…you should be able to get one to come and help your farrier, or maybe even trim for you. Check out the tech support link/farrier finder on www.hopeforsoundness.com. The other thing you might do is host a clinic and have Ovnicek come and trim your horse and help your farrier learn to do a balanced trim.

I cannot understand how he cannot see that the bones are out of alignment and how to address that. He is clearly trimming to what he sees outside and not what the x-rays indicate is true.

I am guessing that you have a problem similar to my QH mare. She has a not too obvious crooked leg that results in her foot slightly toeing out and then rolling over on the quarter…instead of a flare, she gets the wall to start to roll under…but for the same reason. If she is trimmed every few weeks instead of every few months (geezzz does anybody know a farrier that makes their scheduled appointments ) she is sound with no imbalances in the foot, but that doesn’t generally happen.

It should be obvious that if there is a flare on one side, the forces that cause it come from an opposite side. This is so obvious now…but, I understand your farrier’s problem seeing this as I didn’t at first either. Geezzz…this was so simple, so clear and I couldn’t get past the books to understand it…the books also say that the foot hits on the high side…but that is on a stright leg! I have two crooked legged horses…but you can’t see it, so most farriers cannot balance them. But, hubby holds the foot on the stand or under the horse so it hangs in a loose, natural manner and he can show me which way the leg turns and where the foot wants to be. He trims to that…it is the opposite of what anyone would think should be done based on how the horse stands.

I will discuss it with hubby and see if he has any ideas. The one thing I think I remember was the angle to the hairline when viewed straight on. It is very evident that which side is high and which is low…is this Ben or Buzz?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[cassie01]

I can’t believe this thread is still going! The info here is amazing.

Finally I got the chance to take some photos and set up a simple photo page. I guess it’s been a couple of months, and two trims, since my last (and somewhat irate - I’m still irate, but…) post about my little girl’s feet. I asked the farrier to go back to what he had been doing with the clubbed foot and he did.

Just so you don’t have to go back and find my last post, the clubbed foot was doing well then farrier decided to do something different without my knowledge or consent. That’s what I get for trying to let my baby be a big girl and stand in the cross ties by herself without me standing there. My fault. Anyway, he had trimmed the heel down, but left the toe really long so it looked like she was wearing a swim flipper. Then he proceeded to tell me that because she was going to be 2 this year that there was no hope. What happened in the weeks after that trim was disgusting. By the time I was able to get him back out - and I made him come back out just for her - the clubbed foot looked hideous. The last two times he has worked on her, he hasn’t even stopped to LOOK at her feet. He just does a little rasping and that’s it. Every time I tried to ask anything or get him to stop and LOOK he would just tell me that it’s “so hard” or “she’s too old now” or some other evasion The trim 2 days ago was the last time he will touch her feet. I am moving in a few weeks and the new barn has a Natural Balance farrier (which I just found out yesterday) who has done really great work with their horses.

Believe it or not, the clubbed foot now looks better than it did. Yes, it was worse two trims ago She did not look anywhere near this bad when this guy started working on her. The RF was a little more upright than the left but there was no dish. That’s what I get for trusting him when he told me he’s helped lots of clubfooted horses When things started going downhill I tried finding somebody else to come do her, but all the shoers in this area are so busy that nobody could come out for just one trim.

I just don’t feel that all of her feet are balanced well over-all either.

When I first purchased her, I really backed off the feed that her breeder was giving her. She now basically lives on hay with just a small amount of grain (and sunnieflax ) to mix her vitamin supp in. Her growth definitely hasn’t suffered

I am just stumped on the thrush. Her stall is clean and dry and picked multiple times per day. Her feet are picked atleast 2x per day, once when leaving her stall and again when coming in from turnout. I can’t even tell you all of the thrush remedies I’ve tried. I’m about ready to ditch remedy #1000 (a Tea Tree based product) and go back to Thrush Buster which has produced the best results so far.

At her new home she will have 12+ hours of turnout a day which is far more than the 5 hrs max she gets now. I’m hoping that will have some sort of positive effect also.

***edited to add - I’ll be getting radiographs ASAP and if she needs the surgery, then, well, she’ll get it.

***edited again to add - she moves beautifully . That is my remaining ray of light in this whole issue. Her movement is even on both front legs and she takes both canter leads equally.

Anyway, please fire away.

Cassie’s icky feet

[This message was edited by cassie01 on Apr. 04, 2003 at 01:46 PM.]

[Bensmom]

Just dipping in – boy I have lots of catching up to do!

Debbie – thanks so much for the compliment! Mostly I get lots of strange looks and many folks thing I am very odd, but both of my boys are better off having a strange mom

A couple of things before I head back to read and catch up . . .

First, the farrier fixed Ben’s back feet (I think several pages back I was not happy as he was broken again, and figured out that his toes were too long in back and the farrier had let his m/l balance slip) and WOW! He is so much better! The wide behind waddle is gone, and his first dressage clinic since his ligament injury in November went great – now I just have to keep him balanced. <sigh>

and Second – can y’all explain egg bar shoes to me? I was thinking through the physics of them tonight, and that is basically what Bear has on (he’s back, way back, on page 12 or 13 or something!)

It seems, just from a physics point of view (and keep in mind here that I only did well in physics because the about to retire prof lost my midterm and so gave me an A+ on it when he couldn’t locate it ) that the way an eggbar is made, it would almost create the effect of an underrun heel in way that it bears weight.

In other words, since in order to not hang totally off the back of the foot, doesn’t the shoe cut back in before the edge of the heel, or before the edge of where the heels should be? Why doesn’t this move the weight bearing surface forward, much like an underrun heel moving the weight bearing surface out in front of the boney column?

I can’t see how they work – can one of y’all enlighten me?

Thanks!

Libby

Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique

[slb]

Oh man…you guys had your own foot thread going and didn’t invite me?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

Fran raises some interesting points. And, I would have to agree…to talk about obtaining optimal hoof form is easy and one thing…to actually do it, is another

Even the most skilled farriers (especially the most skilled) will tell you that they rarely, if ever attain that optimal form, but that is the goal that they are always striving for. With the foot being a living, changing thing, fomulated by every change in body, management and environment, there is little that can be done to realize that “picture perfect”, optimal form. However, to ignore the benefits of attaining it, or write off the principles that guide us toward it, is to dismiss our duties as horseowners…but, its evident that’s why we are all here discussing this…because we all care and want to be better horseowners.

At most times during the year you can see my horses with toes to long, or heels to high, chips and some cracks where flares are being naturally removed…ok, so when you’re the farrier’s horses its hard to get an appointment! But, they don’t have underrun heels, or totally unbalanced, misaligned feet. They are generally barefoot and self-maintaining, so depending on the conditions of the ground and how overdo for a trim they are, at any time they may be looking anything but optimal…don’t actually have any that ever does look optimal…maybe one on trim day. But, they all ride anywhere sound, and that is, as Fran pointed out, an important issue.

However, on that note, I would also remind everyone that lots of horses go sound for years in long toes,underrun heels with contraction, and misaligned, unbalanced feet…but I also see so many posts that ask why is my horse lame…he never used to be? Why do I need joint supplements, chiros, and massage for my horse at age 5-10? Why does my horse look old at age 10? Why does my horse stumble, interfer, refuse to jump, or perform certain moves? Why does he have wind puffs, tendonitis, or other worse things wrong with his legs? How did he get ringbone or navicular?

We also have lots of backyard trail horses in our area and farriers with anything but shinny trucks (some don’t even have trucks)…and horses that go everywhere sound. But, generally, the feet aren’t too bad looking…not sure how or why that happens…many of the shoers around here haven’t even been to school…maybe that’s why. They wouldn’t know optimal form if you asked them, they wouldn’t agree on how many nails or what size is optimal either. But, they are getting the job done and their customers like them, 'cause their horses walk away sound…never lame. But, they also don’t ask much of their horses either.

So, there is a lot to be said for those who attempt to do a good job…realizing it or not…and those who just don’t “get it”. Regardless of if they “get it” or not, the majority of farriers are out there to help horses, not harm them and should be commended for their efforts. I, for one, would not get under a horse 5-7 days a week (not even 1) for a living…to much like work!

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

USAPJ…can you repost and make your pics a little bigger? Its a little hard to see them.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[lilblackhorse]

I never got the photos, but wanted to let you know the forging has improved-I do think it has to do with his back end moving more freely. He gets his “muled” heels on the back today or tomorrow.

will take photos then (he may not like the flash either!)

Elippses Users Clique…Co-Founder Occularly Challenged Equine Support Group, Pony Club (Graduate) Clique

“And how’s that working for ya?” Dr. Phil

[slb]

Ok Bensmom…I’ll take a shot at this…not good a physics either! Maybe HS will be around to help with this poor explaination.

To me it is relatively simple. First, I am not sure about what you mean by: <BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In other words, since in order to not hang totally off the back of the foot, doesn’t the shoe cut back in before the edge of the heel, or before the edge of where the heels should be? Why doesn’t this move the weight bearing surface forward, much like an underrun heel moving the weight bearing surface out in front of the boney column?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not too up on eggbars or any shoes for that matter, but from my understanding of the application, the purpose and correct application of an eggbar is to support the boney column by extending out behing the foot.

I have included a sideview of Bear in his eggbar for illustration. The red lines indicate his current base of support…and if you actually follow the line down onto the shoe and to the ground where the support really is…then you will see that because of the current (as per this pic) underrun condition of the heels, that the base of support gets smaller as it goes groundward.

The green lines indicate the current base of support that the eggbar affords him…notice it is nearly twice as long and extends back under the boney column where his foot actually should be.

Now notice the yellow “trim” line…more in keeping with a balanced trim that addresses the underrun heel and by shortening it (because it is to long) and thus, moving it back…that just by trimming alone, the base of support is moved back to approx where the eggbar is currently supporting his foot.

So, the question now becomes, does he really need the eggbar? How would you handle this in a barefoot situation? What does the eggbar provide that a balanced trim couldn’t? That’s not to say that eggbars don’t serve a purpose, or that this should be attempted barefoot, or even that Bear should be without shoes. All of these things should be evalutated on an individual basis.

Hope this makes sense Libby…

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Ponio]

Making not so great feet better…

My horse was started saddleseat at a fairly young age. This means they shod him and grew his feet long when he was about two. Because of this his feet never had the opportunity to develope and spread. His toes are always very long and it is nearly impossible to get them short enough and his angles aren’t that great. This causes the feet to be thinner at the toe so it is more brittle. He has good feet (as in the actual tissue is very healthy) but because of the way they grow they are not as strong as they could be.

Are there any shoeing/not shoeing tecniques that might help his feet be less like this?

I will try to get pictures but I probably won’t be able to until next weekend…

[slb]

Dune…unfortunately, I have a feeling that they may not put the next section online. We used to get the AFJ, but they got a new publisher and we stayed with the old one, so we won’t be getting the hard copy of the article either. They may be using that as a comeon for new subscribers.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

Beyond the Trim
Here is another pic to show what the coffin bone is doing as we take the heels down and get the hoof in correct balance. This is a poor attempt, with camera angles different, mismatched scaling, and the coffin bone angle exagerated, but will give you all and idea of how the spacial orientation of the coffin bone changes as the heels are lowered. Note, that not only did the coffin bone realign, but it also came up higher in the foot. While the first issue can be addressed in a couple of trims/resets, the second issue sometimes takes a year or more…depending on how damaged the internal structures are.

As the attachments become stronger and the digital cushion healthier, the coffin bone slightly “rises up” in relationship to the hoof capsule. The sole has a chance to thicken and the coffin bone “rotates” to more correct orientation within the capsule. Importatant here is that in reality, the hoof capsule is being reoriented, the coffin bone generally is fairly static in orientation (often even the case in founder).

Is this too much info…am I confusing everyone?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Saddith:
I have another question… and it is spawned by Instant Karma’s thread about her shoer messing up her horse.

My shoer sets my horses shoes back and leaves just a touch of hoof overhanging on the toe. (For breakover I am guessing) I noticed that the clinches seem to come out awfully high on his hooves - probably due to the setting back of the shoe. Does this mean that the nails are going through the sole? And how far back can you safely set a shoe and nail it without getting into the hoof wall?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If nails are too high or low, that is the way that the farrier applies the nail. High means that the nail is to close to the sensative tissue (or actually putting pressure on it), low means that the nail is too close to the outside of the hoof wall. It really has nothing to do with how far back the shoe is set.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Obviously, the shoe has nail holes in it, and if you set it back far, the nail holes are not near the edge of the hoof.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How would this change things. The shoe should still fit the hoof, just because it is moved back, doesn’t mean that the nail holes shouldn’t match up with the hoof wall. Depending on how far back it is set, the shoe may need to be spread and some of the nail holes may not be used as they may line up with the sensative structures.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I was watching my farrier after he had taken off the old shoes, and when he trimmed the toe area, there was discoloring on the sole - an orange line appeared in a half circle near the toe (akin to a smile formation). My farrier said it was normal. I am worried that he maybe setting the nails too far back, quicking him barely but how can you tell that? He hasn’t been lame, and I haven’t noticed any difference in his movement. Maybe a shortness, but he will extend his trot evenly when he wants to. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Generally if the sensative tissue is compromised either through the nail actually entering it, or by the nail being too close and putting excess pressure on it, the horse is or becomes lame. But, some horses are just “tough”.

The orange cresent shape that you see is a solar bruise generated by pressure on the sole. The problem now is to determine if the pressure comes from inside…rotation or sinking of P3 (founder) can result in this…or if it comes from the outside…pressure from the shoe touching the sole. Sometimes when normal shoes are set back, they touch the sole…shoes like Natrual Balance are beveled to provide sole relief…some farriers bevel keg shoes for the same purpose.

Hope this helps…

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Lisamarie8]

another front solar…

pay no mind to the left and right labels on the pics…I’m SAVAGE in my dyslexia and left and rights KILL me

I know i took more, but I can’t find them…i have issues So that’s all for now. Tell me what you see. He’s a super sound guy (now that I said that I’ll go home and he’ll be 3-legged) and seems to have great feet…but what the hell do i know

— And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

[paddington]

I’ve been following this thread for awhile now, although I do have to admit I’m a couple of pages behind. However, I am looking for some opinions on a new type of shoe my horse is currently in. Like many horses, he has that long toe, low heel syndrome so my farrier has him in shoes that are convex, so that when he stands the back of the shoe does not actually touch the ground. Only the toe of the shoe touches. In theory, it’s supposed to act something like a wedge by changing his toe angle, but at the same time it’s supposed to allow his heel to grow since there is no pressure on his heel (not touching the ground). However, he’s having some new back end issues that are currently pretty subtle, but I am afraid that they may be due to the shoe and may get worse. Any opinions on the shoe, good or bad, will be greatly appreciated!

[shadytrake]

Left Rear…