Of this I am certain - my horse doesn’t have any cracks in his feet.
If you are talking about that rather big flaky skin thing - he does wear bell boots 24/7 and it was very wet/muddy then.
Robby
“Don’t mince words, don’t be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive”
Madonna
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shadytrake:
SLB,
I guess I don’t understand what this means. Can you explain with a visual aid? Or can you recommend a good basic reference book for “lay people?”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Shadytrake…in the attached pic, the red line on the toe indicates the current dorsal hoof wall angle, which should be approximately paralleled by the wall at the heel…green line (variation is allowed, but should be within 10 degrees). The red line on the heel is laid on the current heel angle…big difference between what is (red) and what should be (green).
In the solar view, the red line indicates where the heels currently resides (too far forward) and the green line approx. where the heels should ideally reside…widest part of the frog.
Now, notice the white line on the side view…if I start to lower the heel, the angle becomes more upright (more correct) and the heel moves back closer to optimal position.
Does that make sense?
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
Some interesting new stuff here…
I think that while it is sometimes difficult to tell what the shape of the hoof capsule is from pics (dependent on angles and other things), that generally, it is not to diffiuclt to see underrun heels or changes as noted in Robby’s horse. While it is difficult to compare the two to get an idea of the extent of the change, it isn’t difficult to tell that there was a change.
Bensmom…I agree, excellent article. I don’t care for Stovall’s attitude toward “natural” trimming, but in essence he is saying that balance and alignement (similar to “natrual” trim methods) are key in keeping horses sound and healthy footed.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
Update: Just talked to my farrier on the phone through a translator… no notice that he was coming today. I keep trying to get my point across that the toe needs to be short and he needs to address the heel… talked about the dish… he said it was natural and there was nothing he could do about it.
Dressager
California, here we come!!!
right hind
OK, I keep TRYING to attach this pic and the BB is going all whacked on me…hold please…
— And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?
[This message was edited by lisamarie8 on Apr. 01, 2003 at 04:46 PM.]
slb – the thing that is soooo frustrating is that my farrier thinks of himself as being somewhat NB educated, but you are so right here:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It should be obvious that if there is a flare on one side, the forces that cause it come from an opposite side. This is so obvious now…but, I understand your farrier’s problem seeing this as I didn’t at first either. Geezzz…this was so simple, so clear and I couldn’t get past the books to understand it…the books also say that the foot hits on the high side…but that is on a stright leg! I have two crooked legged horses…but you can’t see it, so most farriers cannot balance them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
EXACTLY!! You cannot see Ben’s crookedness, I mean, even the vet that originally shot his hind x-rays had to stand next to him, holding the films to actually “see” where the crookedness is. But, you can darn sure feel it when you ride him if he’s not right. <sigh>
This is Ben that we are debating at the moment.
Buzz is another story all together. He has one hind foot that is high inside and one that is high outside.
But Ben is my immediate concern and his way of going seems more affected by the imbalance.
The good news is that apparently he is close to 100% sound today, and just a tad bit sore in that heel where the cotton got stuffed inside.
Libby
Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique
slb,
Henry has my gelding in the steel Natural Balance shoes. We started using the NBs on Romeo…oh gosh, well before he was my regular farrier…5 or 6 years ago maybe-when they were only available in Aluminum. He’d fix up Romeo’s angles for me, leave me the instructions for my regular farrier, and I’d take shoes and go for another year…while the angles would just gradually get worse again.
He actually put my mare’s first pair of shoes on in 1995. He was over for a party and trail ride and she was barefoot and getting ouchy, so he put a set of shoes on her.
I do have to haul up to him, I’m about an hour away and well outside of his normal working area, but that actually works fine for me.
I now have weaseled all 4 of my horses onto his schedule, I did it gradually…over about 2 years. He was actually my friend before he was my farrier 
.
IMO, their feet all look great and all the intermittent soundness issues I had been having with Pico went away after I talked him into doing her as well as Romeo.
I’ll get pics this weekend.
Pico doesn’t use the NB shoes, but he sets the shoe well back.
I don’t know if he’ll register and participate, but I’ll email him the thread.
Mel
Can anyone recommend a good book on hoof conformation? I want to be able to look at a hoof and have a solid layman’s understanding of what’s right and wrong with it.
Thanks!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by betsyk:
My 20-y-o Arab has always been sickle hocked and had trouble with long toes and no heels behind, pretty much no matter what anyone did. This last trim our farrier must have decided it was time to take a chance. He took his toes WAY back, so it appears that there’s about an inch of foot ahead of the tip of his frog, and voila – he stands under himself like a normal horse!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Isn’t it GREAT?!! 
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Part of me is still holding my breath, because messing with a sound 20-year-old horse carries its own risks, but he seems bright and perky and not at all sore.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can understand your concern. My husband and I were discussing this very subject recently. He, too, was concerned, but I asked if his 5-7 year projects were still sound and with good feet even when they were in their late teens and my primary riding horse (at 26). He answered yes, so my reply to this would be, it might not work for all horses, but so far has worked for all that my husband has trimmed.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So my question is –
His front feet appear to follow the 1/3-2/3 shape described above in this thread. That 1/3 represents quite a bit more than an inch ahead of where my untrained eye estimates the tip of the coffin bone to be. His hind feet look more like my other gelding’s feet when we were in the middle of reconstruction last year – an inch or so of foot ahead of the tip of the frog, which is much much less than 1/3 of the foot. Why not do the fronts to match the hinds? it’s not like he has much for heels in front.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are the fronts distored also? Sometimes you can get a 1/3 2/3 configuration and still have distortion. If that is the case, (like with underrun heels) then the hoof capsule has migrated forward and shortening the toes more than the 1/3 goal is sometimes neccessary to get the foot to move back under the horse where it belongs. I think you have a good basic understanding of all this and it sounds like your farrier has his act together also.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> will the hinds reshape themselves to create that 1/3-2/3 ratio if he ever grows a heel?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, as the hoof capsule migrates gack to where it belongs, then the form will start to look more like the optimal goal. However, if the heels are not addressed, then just shortening the toe will not allow for correct form…just a distorted foot with a short toe. Do you understand the difference?
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
I don’t have anything to offer on the founder questions (thank goodness we’ve never had to deal with that - knock on wood!) but have another one.
My 20-y-o Arab has always been sickle hocked and had trouble with long toes and no heels behind, pretty much no matter what anyone did. This last trim our farrier must have decided it was time to take a chance. He took his toes WAY back, so it appears that there’s about an inch of foot ahead of the tip of his frog, and voila – he stands under himself like a normal horse! Part of me is still holding my breath, because messing with a sound 20-year-old horse carries its own risks, but he seems bright and perky and not at all sore. So my question is –
His front feet appear to follow the 1/3-2/3 shape described above in this thread. That 1/3 represents quite a bit more than an inch ahead of where my untrained eye estimates the tip of the coffin bone to be. His hind feet look more like my other gelding’s feet when we were in the middle of reconstruction last year – an inch or so of foot ahead of the tip of the frog, which is much much less than 1/3 of the foot. Why not do the fronts to match the hinds? it’s not like he has much for heels in front. will the hinds reshape themselves to create that 1/3-2/3 ratio if he ever grows a heel?
I may see my farrier tonight and I’ll certainly ask him these questions, but that 1/3-2/3 thing vs. 1" ahead of the coffin bone is still bothering me.
slb – you are SUCH an angel to try to keep up with both of my boys. On Ben, who is the concern of the moment, it is both hind feet. I will ask him exactly what he means by “narrowing” the foot – he did take off the flares from the outside of both hind feet.
One other thing that is interesting – to me, I look at a flare and one thing that occurs to me is that where the flare is is taking too much stress – i.e. when the hoof flares on the outside, it makes sense to me that the outside is lower than the inside and the tilt is squooshing the hoof outward to deal with the pressure. My farrier says the opposite – that a flare proves that that is the high side, since it is striking the ground first and flaring out to try to compensate for being too high.
So, you see, we’ve got a basic disagreement as to what we see and what it means. Just to recap – this is both of Ben’s hind feet and I believe that both the photos and the x-rays show high inside/low outside. In fact, I should go back a couple of pages, as you drew me lines that showed that the hairline backs up exactly what I think is going on.
I’ll be printing that out for our next reset!!
Keep up the good work guys!
Libby
Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique
Hi Katelyn…
It would be best if you can post some pics, but I’ll answer your questions as best I can without. Please include a sole shot even though he is in pads.
First comment I would make is that from my experience, a bad trim doesn’t generally founder a horse…there is only one type trim that I have heard of that commonly founders horses and I’m sure your farrier was not applying that trim. I think that you need to get bloodwork and look for underlying problems (undiscovered disease, liver problems, insulin resistance, and/or thyroid problems). Have you done any dietary changes since the founder? What other things have you changed in his management?
Second, treating rotation is one thing…treating a sinker is another. The problem is if the attachment separtated high enough up the hoof wall…near the coronary…then gaining a new, sound attachment that high up is a real bear! The new laminae will want to “stretch” itself to reach the dropped coffin bone. And, it won’t “unstretch”…the coffin bone will slowly have to be reattached by shorter and shorter laminae each new growth. That could take several years. I have seen improvement in my own mare in 2 years, but we still have a long way to go. I have even heard of good reattachment in 2-3 years…but, that was told to me, I didn’t see it.
Often the problem with sinkers is that they keep suffering small bouts of laminitis. These bouts often go undetected, especially if the trim is correct. But, each bout weakens the laminae and lets the foot sink a little lower
each time. Generally, these horses have metabolic disorders that are the underlying cause of the laminitis. Sometimes these metabolic issues are never discovered or resolved.
The final thing is, if he is sound, and you see continuous improvement in the way his feet look…judge the new growth at the top of the foot, not the old growth (can’t do anything about that)…then you are probably progressing as well as can be expected. Is his white line getting tighter each time? This is an excellent way to judge what is happening inside. As the coffin bone resumes it orifinal position, the typical foundered foot stretched white line should start shrinking. I don’t think that 6 months is enough time to see if this is working (in this particular case)…and I would suggest that because he is “sound and happy”, things are working. Also, a size 3 or 4 is a good size foot, so he probably has good form, just bad looking old growth on the outside. Keep checking the growth nearest the coronary and see if it is smoother and the horn tubules straighter. If not, then either the horse has chronic laminitis that you are not detecting, or the method is not working.
Hope this helps…waiting for your pics 
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
I have a question about Robby’s underrun heel… on the first pic the heel has an almost cracked or flaking look. Like a layer of hoof is growing down from the bulb and stops halfway. Does that make any sense what part I am trying to describe? Anyways, is this common in underrun heels? Because my horse has them, and I couldn’t figure out if that was a “symptom” of underrun heels. Are they?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dune:
It is a great idea in theory, but is not perfect, and you still have to have a farrier that can perform the trim/shoeing job for you. I just don’t see that it is any more helpful than just taking the x-rays and shoeing/trimming from those.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dune, you raise a good point. I evaluated the software for hubby thinking he may want to use it for tough cases, but in all reality saw what you did…x-rays provide much the same info.
IMO, it provides farriers that can’t copy the x-ray info onto the real foot with a way to do that. I do see a need for it in some cases, but generally not.
And, I agree…you can still have a farrier trim incorrectly no matter what you use to determine correct balance. The key still lies in the farrier understanding the way to accomplish a trim that correctly balances and aligns the bones.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
OK, FINALLY I took some pics of Ozzy’s feet. The farrier was coming out (first time with a new guy since I moved south, he was great) and i took some before and after pics…but for the life of me I can’t find all the after pics.
Here are the specs 
Ozzy hadn’t been trimmed in over 8 weeks before the farrier came out, he’s been barefoot his whole life (all 4 years of it), he’s JUST come back into work after having the winter off. We hack on roads, gravel, mud, dirt, grass, trees, small childeren you name it. Anyhoo, Here they are. He’s got a great ole big flair in this first front on shot.
— And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?
Right Rear Solar…
I have GOT to sit down and reread a lot of the last few pages here. TOo much good stuff!
Have we talked about differences between inside and outside views of feet …? In my case, and I need to take pictures, I noticed last night (after 30 minutes of laying on the concrete on my belly examining his feet while he sniffed my hair…) That Java’s inside heels are far more underrun then his outside heels all around.
In fact, the height of his feet, seems much higher on the outside then the inside (particularly behind), and I’m inclined to say the outside is correct and the insides are way too short hairline to ground. They look like nubs from the inside view.
I noticed his front shoes… the hoof is growing into the shoe all the way to edge of the shoe on the outside, but there is a good 3/4" of shoe overhanging the inside hoof/heel. The shoe appears to be square and centered across the front, leading me to say his inside heel is 3/4" MORE underrun than the outside.
I need pictures!
Point me to previous comments (I’ll do the search with some key words!) or give me some feed back on fixing uneven underrunnedness, etc… This is worrisome!
Oh, and I see on his RF (i need a pic of it too), that he has a bulging crack about an inch long parallel to the ground just below his coronet band well into the hoof part. Wonder what this could be? It’s been dirty and mud encrusted, thus I just noticed it when my face was planted 6" from his hoof.
He hasn’t been lame, but he is incredibly stoic about this stuff.
martha
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **
Well, her new retirement family is new to “horses” although old to livestock and farming and VERY concientous about health and happiness. Casey was “sound” in the way an arthitic old horse is - stiff, short, sometimes a little head bob. Needed to keep moving to stay sound enough, but never 100%.
The mare had shoes all her life - through the navicular diagnosis, etc. When the new mom asked me my opinion on pulling her expensive shoes, I said “go for it!, but expect her to be foot sore for a long time…” and I handed her some bute.
Little bitty kids were going to be walking her arond on the property and otherwise she just lives with goats.
I heard through the grapevine that she is sound now - but whether that’s true or not I don’t know - if they’re beginners they might not know what sound is. However, I am very interested to see her and find out if pulling the shoes did the trick, it would be some nice anecdotal evidence for my bag of tricks.
Whether they have access to a “good farrier” is another question…
martha
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **
I have another question… and it is spawned by Instant Karma’s thread about her shoer messing up her horse.
My shoer sets my horses shoes back and leaves just a touch of hoof overhanging on the toe. (For breakover I am guessing) I noticed that the clinches seem to come out awfully high on his hooves - probably due to the setting back of the shoe. Does this mean that the nails are going through the sole? And how far back can you safely set a shoe and nail it without getting into the hoof wall?
Obviously, the shoe has nail holes in it, and if you set it back far, the nail holes are not near the edge of the hoof. I was watching my farrier after he had taken off the old shoes, and when he trimmed the toe area, there was discoloring on the sole - an orange line appeared in a half circle near the toe (akin to a smile formation). My farrier said it was normal. I am worried that he maybe setting the nails too far back, quicking him barely but how can you tell that? He hasn’t been lame, and I haven’t noticed any difference in his movement. Maybe a shortness, but he will extend his trot evenly when he wants to.
OK, I’m back from my xray/farrier excursion (this from the Rhodey thread a while back). Will try to obtain the digital xrays to post here.
My horse’s coffin bones in both front feet were nearly flat, instead of the 3-5 degree angle they should be at. He’s pretty lame at the moment.
We drew lines on the xrays to dictate where the breakover point should be (just like much discussion on this thread, further back towards the front of the coffin bone than his too-long toes had had it before).
Keep in mind this is a HUGE horse with HUGE feet; we brought the shoe back 2 cms!!! and rolled the toe.
Left room at the heel for the heel to grow down to meet the shoe.
Vet felt that wedges would only crush the heel structures more, particularly given how big my guy is.
He wanted Natural Balance shoes, but the farrier said they didn’t come big enough, so he did his best to recreate the shape and balance with what he had.
Interesting side note – vet said the medial/lateral balance was nearly perfect, which surprised him given our other problems.
We’re now doing shockwave up through the frog and down from the bulb of the heel to see if we can alleviate discomfort in the areas that were getting crushed by the coffin bone/heels.
I’ll try and follow up with the xrays; does this make sense so far?
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