Bump.
Anyone?
If the farrier has made some changes to the angles or balance of her feet, then you may need a new set to see where the coffin bone currently lies.
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Abscessingā¦
I think that there are several reasons for abscesses, but your remark about allergies or more likely metabolic disorders is a good start. Many horses abscess because of unbalanced or misaligned feet, and/or thin soles. Generally, these are directly related. More often than not, correct form produces tough thick sole.
But, aside from that, horses with metabolic issues do seem to abscess more often. We have found that these horses are often mineral imbalancedā¦most often a magnesium or selenium/vit E deficiencyā¦sometimes excesses of other minerals like calcium, aluminum, or iron can interfer with uptake of other minerals thus causing imbalances. Field trials that we conducted resulted in fewer to elimination of chronic abscessing in all cases.
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Yea - they look even better now i think! 
take your pictures and draw lines all over em! show em to the ownerā¦ BINGO - PROOF!
martha
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UPDATE
The new farrier wonāt be here for another 2 weeks, but over the weekend, I had someone else (new to shoing) come out to pull his shoes and give him a āpasture roleā without taking off too much. That was the plan, anyway, but he was missing too much sole in the quarters of his hind feet that she had to do more trimming to prevent his hoof wall from breaking up without the shoes on.
The result? Well, his toes are still too long (we intentionally didnāt try to fix that much), but his feet DO look closer to being balanced in back, AND his STIFLES are AMAZINGLY improved! I simply CANāT believe how much better heās walking!!! I havenāt seen him walk that well, just on his way to the pasture hay, ever!
I wish I had taken before pictures. I guess weāll see what hapens over the next 2 weeks. Now, Iām REALLY looking forward to my new farrier!
YAY! 
Lisamarieā¦thanks for adding those last pics they were good, the others didnāt help.
In the pic I attached, there are a few thingsā¦
There are slight flares in the quarters. The configuration of the foot is too long and the heels are underrun. Note the white line on the rear solar view (on the right)ā¦it indicates the length of the foot from widest part to point of breakover and to heel (green lines). Note that the ratio shows more weight bearing surface at the front rather than at the rear of the foot. The optimal configuration is 1/3 (front) 2/3 (rear).
The red lines indicate where your heels are now, and the green line where they should reside. They appear too long and if they were cut down, the angle would change and the heel would be moved back to widest part of frog.
The curved red lines indicate the curve that is starting in the bars. The bars should ideally be straight. Curving indicates unusual forces that most likely are caused by the heels starting to contract in as they move foreward. The bars will straighten when the heels are in position.
Also note the white angled line on the toe of the front solar view (on the left). This indicates the current point of breakover. This is most likely because the toes are too long, so the horse tries to compensate and get out of its own way by rolling over the side of the toe rather than the front.
Think I covered everythingā¦hope this helps.
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Ok, slb ā you come back from actually getting some work done and pose all sorts of interesting questions!
Iām in the middle of prepping for Red Hills (the barns are up and it is only MONDAY! ) but Iāll go through and comment and look as soon as I can devote some actual attention to it.
Libby (whose been busy supervising the grumpy AAA guy changing my tire this morning . . .)
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Bensmom, Ya make me smile.
Gotta give big time credit for helpin your farrier through this spot.
I bet ya a latte that this works out big time for ya.
Regards John
For those dealing with long toes (flares) and underrun or long heels, here is a great site that gives instructions for trimming. This site is maintained by an ex-Strasser trimmer who turned in her certificate after a few months of applying the Strasser trim in the field. She does a nice job of explaing balanced trimming for owners. BTW, the trim would be the same, barefoot or shod, except that you canāt scoop the quarts for a shod horse.
Barefoot for Soundness
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Comment on the bleeding after trimmingā¦never, never, never should this happen! Iāve been around horses for years and have seen some really not very good shoers and even those guys never drew blood. I would seriously consider finding someone else for the job! Something else to think about regarding the āhot nailsā, I had a horse that used to really react when the shoes were being nailed and he would be sore after shoeing. He would not react to just the pounding with the hammer so it was actually the driving of the nails. I suspected that he was very mildly laminitic in some way. Not one vet would agree with me and he was never diagnosed this way. However, now that his feet are balanced, he is no longer overweight and is on more of a cushings-type ādietā he no longer reacts to the nails. This is not quite the same scenario as your horse, but I thought Iād throw it out there for you. It was just so peculiar and like I said, no vets would ever back me up on it, but it seems to be fixed now. Also, the current farrier uses very thin nails, which also help a variety of problems. Just thought Iād give you something else to think about.
I keep meaning to grab the digital camera and take pics. I told Henry about this thread at our last appt and he was going to grab his wifeās digital camera for me, but couldnāt find it.
Anyway, Iāll see if I have time tomorrow morning. Iāll sweep out a stall (rubber mats) and stand the barefoot ones in there and the shod (fronts only). All were barefoot for almost 4 months this past winter and Romeo & Pico just got front shoes on.
Not only that, Iāll be sending Henry the URL to this thread so he can read (and possibly participate) in any comments about his work on my guys.
Mel
P.S. slb, it is Henry Heymering (youād had Hammering sp?) in an earlier post. And, last year, when he was studying the Strasser method before the Tufts panel on it, we actually compared my horseās feet to her ātemplateā and agreed that I would have lame horses if I tried those angles!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=āip-ubbcode-quoteā><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZephyrāsMom:
I do have one more question. Martha mentioned that pastern angles had already been determined not to be a factor. But you mention a ābroken back axis.ā What is the difference? Sorry if this seems like an elementary school question. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No questions here are to elementary, this is just the basics 
ā¦
Pastern angles are the angle that the pasterns exhibit. These are subject to change when the horse is in motion, or as the foot is moved forward or backward under the leg as the hoof angles change (or for other reasons). The angles and height of the heels also have a marked effect on pastern angle. This is evidenced when the heels become high and contracted. In order to relieve the pain, the horse starts weighting its toesā¦sometimes not enough for an untrained eye to notice. When this happens, it pulls the muscles short in the leg/shoulder area to help keep the painful heel from being weighted (or sometimes a non-painful heel from being over-weighted by a long toe levering the weight onto the heel). Soon the pastern and sometimes shoulder angles become steep and stay there. Think of this poor analogyā¦if you walk around long enough with your shoulders shrugged or head kinked over to one side, the muscles would eventually atune themselves to that position and shorten or lenghten to accommodate it. The same happens in the pastern and shoulders of the horse. If you relieve the heel pain or condition that causes ātoeā walking, the pastern will relax and return to a more natural postition.
A broken axis (forward or back) is the result of the interior bones (P1, 2, and 3) not aligning on the natural central axis that is needed for pain-free and optimal movement. In the broken back axis, the toe is generally to long and the angle to low. In a broken forward axis, the toe is generally to steep and possibly to shortā¦sometimes called club or coon footed. Although we donāt want to let the pastern dictate the hoof angle, the optimal angle will generally align itself so that there is a straight axis through the center of the hoof and the pastern or P1 (coffin bone), P2 and P3 (sorry left this out). This axis optimally should not be ābrokenā. Often, farriers use the pastern to align the hoof wall, but we have seen from the many pics posted here that the hoof can be deformed and still aligned. So, if the goal of the trim is to attain optimal form and function, rather than some ādictatedā angle (that may follow a pastern angle that is to steep or shallow because the foot is painfulā¦or for numerous other reasons), then alignment will become natural and correct (supported by x-ray studies done by Page). This allows for the pastern angles to be skewed, but doesnāt affect the form of the foot, and as the foot attains optimal form, the pastern will also.
Does this rambling make sense? 
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[This message was edited by slb on Mar. 06, 2003 at 01:20 AM.]
<BLOCKQUOTE class=āip-ubbcode-quoteā><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dune:
ā¦Something else to think about regarding the āhot nailsā, I had a horse that used to really react when the shoes were being nailed and he would be sore after shoeing. He would not react to just the pounding with the hammer so it was actually the driving of the nails. I suspected that he was very mildly laminitic in some way. Not one vet would agree with me and he was never diagnosed this way. However, now that his feet are balanced, he is no longer overweight and is on more of a cushings-type ādietā he no longer reacts to the nails. This is not quite the same scenario as your horse, but I thought Iād throw it out there for you. It was just so peculiar and like I said, no vets would ever back me up on it, but it seems to be fixed now. Also, the current farrier uses very thin nails, which also help a variety of problems. Just thought Iād give you something else to think about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dune, I for one support you in your thoughts on this. I have seen it more than once and after 3 years of treating metabolic cases that suffered chronic laminitis and āallergiesā, I can attest to the improtance of how well they seem to recover when the trim is correctly balanced and their diets are addressed to meet their ālowā carb needs.
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left solar
Martha ā how did you do that?!! That is really awesome to see what her feet would look like if the angles were changed! I donāt think that your repair is too upright, but as my farrier says, Iād put club feet on every horse if I could (his way of teasing me about paranoia about LT/LH syndrome)
I would also be concerned about the suspensory strain and would be very anxious to have those toes shortened and get more support under that leg as soon as was practicable.
So, since it has been a couple of weeks, did you have a new farrier do her and how does it look?
Libby (heehee ā it is the thread that wouldnāt die!)
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Hi, Zephyrās Momā¦we didnāt forget youā¦I have lots to say, but would like to have some of the others comment before I do.
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MCMIV-
Well, you know my guy had heel pain as well. He was crippled in eggbars. We also had the rubber injected under pads for him. I was ready to put him down as it would take us 4 grams of bute a day to get him half way sound.
Then, we tried the set back shoe with the rounded toe. No bute needed, nothing. Heās 100% sound at the walk. Heās arthritic a bit and needs to be kept in work to stay fluid, but he is about 80% sound. He goes in SMBās in the front every ride and has for years. For him, this combination works. He also jumps a bit, up to 18 inches or so when heās feeling good. Heās 29 now. Foundation QH bloodlines. If we donāt work him some he gets depressed. In fact I need to get on him this weekend and putter aroundx some. He has spent the last 10 years teaching beginners how to ride.
āIāve got a holiday, a paid holiday, Iāve got a holiday in my headā
What angles do you want? Side? Frog?
Dressager
No two smart men ever agree on anything -Harry Truman
Mellsmom - what was the treatment for the older navicular horse that āfixedā him? We had a mare like that who wasnāt totally cripled, but fairly lame, all her life. Eggbars and pads on her, even had her nerved once or twice.
Sheās still kicking around happily on a farm with some goats and sheep and a pony. I heard they pulled her shoes and shes āsoundāā¦ I want to check in on her to see if its true!
martha
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**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they wonāt bother you for weeks. **
