Post your Feet Pictures! (AKA: Good Hoof Stuff Every Horse Owner Should Know!)

[slb]

Dressager…your pics are ready
They were a little blurry, so I cleaned them up enough to talk about them. These present a very interesting issue. I think we would all agree that the sole view doesn’t look to bad. I would say general shape isn’t bad, but the protruding bulbs indicate contraction.

However, the side view presents the reality. The toe is long and low as well as the heel. This results in the whole foot moving forward, misplacing the weight bearing forces and forcing the horse to walk on heels that are probably painful (thus he doesn’t fully weight them resulting in contraction, resulting in further pain)…that doesn’t mean that he would exhibit lameness either. The red lines are the current trim with the matching coffin bone alignment to far forward. The green lines and matching (filled in) coffin bone show how the foot should be a little steeper and moved back under the leg.

There is a significant dish in the toe, so we will talk about that. I have incorrectly aligned the coffin bone with the red hoof wall angle(just thought of that and don’t want to redo the pic). Had I correctly aligned it with the top of the hoof wall (where the dish is most indented) it would become evident why there is a dish to the foot. The hoof wall is moving away from the coffin bone at the bottom half of the foot. This is resulting in stretched white line and a toe flare (which I can’t see, but can tell you is there). The laminar attachment at the bottom half of the coffin bone is weak. This is a setup for laminits/founder (mechanical). Some horses go their whole life like this sound, many do not.

Also wanted to add…notice how the top of the hoof wall is close to my “improved” geen hoof angle. While this is not neccessarily a correct angle, it is closer to an ideal than the red lines. The top of the hoof is trying to grow in at a “natural” and optimal angle, but the long toe and flaring take the hoof wall in another direction…resulting in the dished look. This would probably be easy to fix, just by keeping the toe short and addressing the heels.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Debbie]

GREAT THREAD!! I can’t believe I’ve missed it for so long. I’m in a constant quandry over my horse’s feet and wondering if he’s “right.” We pulled his shoes for awhile based on advice from the vet school and he grew much more foot in seemingly the right place (how’s that for technical insight) but was off and sore for at least two weeks after every trim, so I was riding 3 weeks out of five – not very promising. Now he’s back in shoes, I’ve had him shod (front only) 3 different times, by two different farriers and his feet have looked quite different between the two farriers. I just read all 24 pages and am heading home to look at his feet through new eyes. I’m sure I’ll have questions and will post photos as well, but have to say up front that I’m just so thrilled to have found so much to refer to here and to now have people to ask.

Bensmom – my hat is off to you for how you’ve studied and thought through your horses’ issues and the photos and xrays have been very informative.

slb – wowsa, you know some stuff!! But even better you explain it incredibly well and the visual aids with the lines and whatnot are invaluable.

Thanks guys; I’ll be back to pester you with questions…

[slb]

Bensmom…look you can see it in the hairline…tell your farrier to trim to straighten the hairline…its as simple as that!

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

That’s great! It is amazing how much better a horse does if he is allowed to share the load between his sole and hoof wall rather than just walking on the wall.

A lot of people ask what is all this “natural” stuff and how can it be better…it is mostly based on the premise that the current/old model of trimming (and even research) was based on the hoof wall being the primary weight bearing surface. The new or “natural” model explains how a shared load provides a better structure for the horse to walk on.

A quick analogy would be think about pressing down on just the tip of your finger on something hard. Which would feel better…pressing with just the nail or pressing with the whole tip? If just the nail (hoof wall) is bearing all the forces, then you get some pain, tearing of sensative tissues (especially with a longer nail/toe/wall), and potential for many other problems created by the loss of shock absorption. If the load is shared, the shock absorption is so much greater and there is prominant forces on the part that is attached with sensative tissues (the wall).

It is a known fact that horses treated for founder with attention to load sharing are quickly and easily healed as opposed to those that are left with a load bearing wall. The wall can never correctly reattach parallel to the coffin bone if the lamina are always being streteched.torn and the forces on the hoof are always pushing it away from the coffin bone (that is how the curved “slipper” toe is created). Additionally, if the foot is in a shared load “mode” when a horse founders, there is less change in the structures (rotation).

Thanks for the update…we look forward to hearing about the results from the new farrier!

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[shadytrake]

And the left rear solar…

[HossShoer]

Hey Fran, yeap it’s me.
Are you coming up for the Ontario Farriers Convention April 11 & 12 in Guelph? Bob Racich abd Mike Pownall are on Friday and Myron is on Saturday.
Regards John

[katarine]

and JJ LF sole

“Shoot me now! Shoot me now!”
Bugs Bunny

[inspired]

Okee Dokee, I figured this thread needed bumping, and I’ve got some questions related to my previous post.

My horses front hooves are pretty normal, just way to long with a broken axis - I suspect they will be pretty easy to fix. It’s the hinds I’m worried about. I’d post pictures, but it would be a major project to make that happen…

The last farrier has been shoing him with a rocker toe in back for the last year. At a glance, it always looked just fine, but on closer inspection, I’m worried. His heel angle is very low to the ground - I’d say it was under-run, but the front hoof angle is about the same! How could I not notice? Becuase the front of the hoof appears rasped off, so that the front is actually convex. …not like squaring a toe at all, it’s actually quite odd looking, now that he’s over-due and it’s starting to grow out. He’s got trailers traight off the back of the shoe that look over 1" long. Looking at the growth of the tubules, it seems as if his foot would be enormously long if it weren’t chopped short! We are letting him go over-due waiting for the new farrier to get here in 3 weeks (seems like forever!) and I’m planning on pulling his shoes next week. It looks like he must have a terribly broken axis, and likely explains the mystery wind-puffs in his hinds.

My questions: he’s been having intermittent trouble with catching stifles, for which he has no conformational pre-disposition - is it possible that the broken axis in his hind is contributing? What should I do for him over the next 3 weeks? I ONLY have hilly terrain to ride on - do you think I should put him on vacation? (I hesitate, because time off always makes the stifles worse) Light hacking? He’s turned out 12hrs/day.

I AM planning on calling my new farrier, but wanted some other thoughts on the matter. The farrier we’re flying in is familiar with this horse and is very good with corrective and preventitive trimming/shoing. Right now, 3 weeks seems so VERY far away!!! Oh, if only I had learned more about this stuff sooner…

Am I blowing this out of proportion?

[Dune]

SLB, thank for the link the the Savoldi article! I really want to see part II when he gets to the coffin bone. I hope that I will remember to look for it.

[Charisma]

This is a great thread!!

My farrier has been working on my new 3 year old QH since I bought him in January. My QH came to me with terrible feet, you guessed it, long toes, foot way out in front, low, to little heel. He has blown out several abcess on his coronary bands (on 3/4 feet). Horse starts out a little stiff when you first start working with him, but works out of it. Was short strided when I bought him.

My farrier trimmed up the foot, changed the angles slightly and rocked the toe. My horse adjusted well to the trim, and the second time the farrier came out to reset, he said my horse held the angles well. The foot is better placed under the leg. My horse still starts out stiff, but does work out of it, his stride has opened up a little bit (Yeah!)

Here is my question. Do you think he is starting out stiff because of his feet, changing the angles and such? Could it be heel pain? Or do you think it is something else? Is it common for a horse to be stiff due to his feet changing?

(When I had him vetted, he flexed and hoof tested clean. The vet didn’t seem concerned about his slight stiffness.)

He is out to pasture for 10-12 hrs a day, and I have him on a joint supp. Any ideas…comments?

[Dune]

Just a quick addition, regarding the abscessing. I knew some people who were working on horses with some pretty severe hoof distortions. They would really “get into” those feet…too much, in my opinion. Those poor horses would abcess all the time. They claimed that it was the old, necrotic tissue coming out from the bad shoeing, trimming. I wasn’t around to see if those horses got any better, I doubt it. I thought that they were abscessing because the trimming was compromising the hoof’s integrity too much. I’m not an expert, but it just seemed like too radical. I really think that a good farrier can make some good positive changes in two, maybe three shoeings and that the horse does not have to get worse before he gets better. That was this group’s spiel and I never bought into it. PS It was not a Strasser group, although I know it sounds that way. Anyway, good luck!

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mcmIV:
I think SLB should be salaried for this thread. What’s your going rate SLB?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks Martha…I’m not a professional, so I don’t think I should get paid. I’m just sharing my opinions, experiences, and research. Wish HS would join in with his thoughts…but he is a professional and probably is busy with work.

My going rate…if I can get even one person to gain an understanding and get their horse in a balanced trim with sound, healthy, happy feet…then, I have been rewarded for my efforts. In the case of this thread…maybe more like 5 would be good.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

Here is a good link that offers some info from the mouths of some of those (Gene Ovnicek) that study wild feet.

Additionally, the article below it will provide more (and better) info on trimming to attain a more balanced foot and how to address underrun heels and frogs.

NRB, there is some good info on the frog and why it might be overly developed.

Natrual Hoof Prints Newsletter

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[MsDuch]

Martha,

Yes, your repair was exactly what I envisioned my mare’s feet needing. I was even more impressed when the farrier (a new one for me) came out and did it: it looked almost like your reconstruction! I am hoping to take new photos today or tomorrow and will post them to my album.

Of course, my mare went off three days after the new shoes went on, but I’ll post more about that when I have the new pictures…

Thanks!
MsDuch

[Lisamarie8]

How Neat!

And yup, Robby, The Oz man is out 24/7 and wanders around 12+ acres.

I wish I had a good picture of Ozzy AFTER he was trimmed. Like I said it had been well over 8-10 weeks since he had been done. Perhaps this afternoon (as I’m getting ready for our combined test tomorrow YAY!) I’ll take some more pictures.

slb, thanks for taking the time, with the diagrams and stuff. I find all of this fascinating. I’m going to go back and read it again, I’m sure to have questions.

— And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?

[Saddith]

Thanks robby, for clearing that up - my horse has it too, and I was pretty sure that it was hoof growing down from the bulb.

I have another question about farrier ways… mine seems to use a protractor looking instrument to get a toe trim line. What is this instrument and what does it tell him? I am not sure, but he seems to compare it to the other hoof - is this to make sure he is in the ball park for length or angle?

[inspired]

Good timing Bumpkin - I have an UPDATE!

I LOVE my new farrier. I just can’t get over her. She’s my HERO!!!

In the back of my mind, I thought it was rediculous to fly a farrier all the way up the coast when there are so many to choose from at home. IT WAS WORTH IT!!!

I swear, this was the FIRST time I’ve actually seen a farrier really balance hooves. I watched her very closely and she hapily showed me what she was doing, why, and what was going on with my horse’s feet. I’ve gotta say, he methodologies were RIGHT in line with this thread! What was even cooler is that I UNDERSTOOD what she was talking about and was able to speak intelligently with her about it. She loved it.

More importantly, my horse loved it. My horse is now on his way to recovery. All 4 feet are balanced, their heels brought back to where they belong, that terrible excess length of toe brought back ALMOST to where it belongs (she could only do so much the first time), and he’s moving better than I’ve EVER seen at liberty. The catch in his stifles is dramatically improved already.

Now, she was not just a farrier, she also does some message therapy, which I also believe contributed profoundly to his improvement. Total, she worked on him for 6 hours! She said next time wouldn’t take so long, and she should have him “perfect” by the 3rd shoing. YAY!!!

I told her about this thread, too, which she thought was neat. HOWEVER, she’s asked me to not divulge TOO much about what was done until we have a complete success story to report. …but from my perspective, it already IS a success story!!

She had a similar kind of impact on the other horses she trimmed and shod this weekend. A lot of the horses she worked on had been left with their toes too long and their break-over in the wrong spot. Many of them had narrow front feet, as well.

One thing that was really interesting for me to see on my horse’s feet. His hoof walls were paper thin on the sides and super thick at the toe (which was too long). She explained that to me as being the hoof’s way of trying to protect the toe from the excessive force from being too long. This, of course, explains why he was constantly getting cracks at the nail holes from the other farrier. She had to nail in very carefully in the white line in order to get shoes on the front without doing damage, and we left the back feet nekkid, hoping to encourage them to widen out over the next 5-6 weeks. All 4 feet already DID start to widen out during that 2 week period of barefootness, which was truely amazing to see. She did some cool stuff with the front shoes, too, in order to give my horse support where he didn’t have any hoof. When she was done, he actually looked NORMAL.

Anyway, the proof is in the pudding. My horse is now trotting around his field just for the sake of feeling good. I’ve never seen him so happy!

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mcmIV:
HI.

Rugbug - I like the feet overall. I am obsessed with underrun heels, and I see little evidence of that - I guess they could be more perfect, I didn’t draw on them, but they look pretty darn decent.

Java has those ridgey bumps too. His aren’t quite as pronounced, but they’re obvious enough. He has them in front.

I have been really wondering what the heck they are. I was expecting them to go away with new shoeing, improved soundness through medication… nope. Fairweather once asked if he had foundered in the past because she saw those ridges. Nope, he hasn’t. Or if he did, he didn’t rotate.

I would agree with Riverdale’s assessment that it’s due to nutrition or disease… but Java is pretty freaking healthy. He is an easy keeper. He gets good quality hay and good pelleted feed. He is on MSM, Flax, Vit. E/Selenium, and sunnies, of course. He is super shiny, plump, and his personality has been stellar for months. I don’t buy that he has a deficiency or disease.

But obviously it’s SOMETHING… hmm… the ridges have been present for at least 2 years. He has only been on additional supplements above for 1 year or less. The ridges are still coming down…his new more balanced and correct shoeing has been underway for 6 months.

So I’m curious about the ridges! Keep offering detailed suggestions.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rooster’s feet normally look a little better. I thought his heels were slightly underrun, but wanted to see what everone else would say. His owner is always telling me how good his feet are, but I think that’s only because she’s parroting the farrier and not from real foot knowledge. I started reading this thread to see what good feet really looked liked (I’ve learned sooooo much!), and after 31 pages, I think his measure up admirably, but that there is a little room for improvement. Doing something about it is a different story. Can’t really ask for changes when I only half lease him. At least they’re pretty darn good anyway.

As for the ridges, both times they appeared after rain turned everything muddy. I tend to think it’s more due to the weather than diet/nutrition. He’s been getting the same supps for at least two years, and this is the first sign of the ridges. (he gets MSM, Biotin, Platinum Performance, and sunnies along with his Purina Senior…and alfalfa in the am, oat hay in the pm). They are slowly growing out and hopefully thing will stay dry enough so a new set doesn’t show up. I keep playing with the idea of using Corona on his feet, but haven’t yet.

Anyway, I reference Java when someone says underrun TB heels can’t be fixed. His look soooo much better than when you started.

[Zephyr_sMom]

OK, Gotcha. (How mysterious! )

http://community.webshots.com/user/sharon_kenney1359

http://www.ZEGifts.com

[inspired]

Thanks, slb! You’ve been so helpful in helping me understand some of the theory in a more practical sense.

You know, before he started putting shoes on my horse’s back feet, the only problems he had were some minor cracks (which I now understand was likely from his toes being left too long). They were a bit out of balance, but never any sign of dishing, etc.

I’m trying to wrap my head around all this, so that I can be an intilligent horse-owner from now on. I’ve taken some books on horse-shoing out from the library, and reading discussions like this one have really helped, too. Yup, this farrier has been having “bad hair days” a bit too consistantly. …that’s why both myself and my trainer are switching.

You know, he was trimming the resident ancient pony, who moves so slowly, you only see her trot once in a blue moon. He left her toes so long over the winter, she actually bowed both tendons! Poor little girl. The last time he came out to trim her, he left her sooooo long STILL that she didn’t even look trimmed - her owner was so frustrated that she took the situation into her OWN hands. The woman, having NO experience with trimming horses, rasped the pony’s toes herself, and I SWEAR I’ve never seen the pony move better!

sigh What does it take to get a good farrier these days? My trainer and I are resulting to flying in the farrier she uses in FL during the winter…