Post your Feet Pictures! (AKA: Good Hoof Stuff Every Horse Owner Should Know!)

[lilblackhorse]

ok you guys-I remember when this thread was small, and it got away from me. I lost my scanning abilities and was bummed I couldn’t play.

Now that it’s at 31 pages! I am joining the party late—like those of you on page 6 saying that!LOL

Ok, so I am going to get the digital camera out tomorrow and take photos of Will’s feet before the farrier comes. That was you can see what his feet look like and then maybe give me some concrete ideas on how we should “raise his heels” like he requested of the animal communicator –anything to make his back and hips feel better.

I apoogize for only getting to pg 11–you all were busy there for awhile! I’ll finish reading it later-so far I think he has decent feet looking at the photos to compare, but will be back her hopefully tomorrow…Martha or Libby I may have to email you the photos as I am not a premium member and I have no idea how to post multiple photos on one page. Thanks…be back soon!

I can’t believe this thread got so big-I am glad it did. THIS is what this bb is all about

aimee

Elippses Users Clique…Co-Founder Occularly Challenged Equine Support Group

“And how’s that working for ya?” Dr. Phil

[slb]

Martha…some good observations and comments. Here is a sole pic that will help you understand better why you think the heels appear longer on one side than the other (they are), as well as the toe is to long, and what is happening because of it.

The red lines indicate where the heel currently is and approx. where point of breakover appears to occur. Notice it is at an angle. Generally horses with long toes will begin to breakover at an angle inorder to avoid the long toe and inappropriate point of breakover at the end of it.

The green lines indicate approx. where the heel and toe should be. The blue line, the point of breakover. Currently there is more than 50% of the foot in front of the widest part of the foot (a little behind the apex of the frog)…meaning that the bulk of the weight is being carried on the front half of the foot rather than the back half. The black arrows are exactly the same length, so you can see the difference in heel height…the right side (from the view) is forward of the left.

White line separation is most likely a simple result of the misplaced, distored hoof capsule and will resolve as the hoof approaches optimal form. The flares are also a cause.

I thought I should add…please Zephyr’s Mom, don’t use these examples as trim guides. I have no idea where the landmarks are for the coffin bone, so I am only guesstimating where these points should fall. You really should get x-rays, find the sole calous that protects the tip of the coffin bone and determine were point of breakover should be and how far back to cut the toe.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[This message was edited by slb on Mar. 05, 2003 at 12:41 AM.]

[hoofcare]

I seem to be hopeless with this discussion group, it must be my antique computer. I can’t seem to post very easily at all but I really enjoyed seeing the photos of all the feet and shoeing jobs.

Thanks to everyone for all 23 pages of exchange and opinions and if you read through all of this, you might enjoy this conference we are working on:

Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine
Hoofcare for the New Millenium
Exploring Natural Hoofcare
May 2-4, 2003
North Grafton, Massachusetts

Course description:
An in-depth examination of the options available to veterinarians, farriers and
educated owners in the correct of the horses hoof. Course will encompass
lectures, panel discussion, hands on labs and demonstrations.

The goal of this conference is to further explore the realities of natural hoof care
and what this term means. Through lectures, panel discussions and active
participant involvement, the myths and realities of both traditional and alternative
hoof care will be examined as applicable to both the healthy and diseased hoof.

Two Luncheons and a Saturday Night Kentucky Derby Event will provide an
opportunity for attendees to meet in a relaxed and informal atmosphere.

Speakers: David Hood, DVM, PhD (Texas A&M College of Veterinary Medicine,
and Director, The Hoof Project),
Robert Bowker, DVM, PhD (Michigan State University College of Veterinary
Medicine Equine Foot Laboratory),
Mike Wildenstein, AWCF, CJF (Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine
Farrier Instructor and Lecturer),

PLUS Tufts faculty and staff such as
Carl Kirker-Head, MRCVS, Dip ACVS - Course Moderator - The Marilyn M.
Simpson Chair in Equine Medicine at Tufts University
and Mike Mooney, CJF (Tufts University farrier).

The course will be directed by Tia Nelson DVM, independently practiticing
farrier/veterinarian in Helena, Montana known as “the inventor of the four point
trim” (which makes her roll her eyes) and a widely known lecturer on the
principles and advantages of maintaining sound domestic horses without shoes
whenever the horse’s environment and management allow.

Cost is $195 per person.

Contact: Continuing Education Department
Tel 508-887-4723;
Email susan.brogan@tufts.edu,
web site: www.tufts.edu/vet/continedu.
– ================== C O N T A C T ==========================

::: h o o f c a r e :::
Fran Jurga, Editor and Publisher
Hoofcare & Lameness: The “Feet First” Equine Science Journal
and
Hoofcare Online: free educational e-letters for farriers,
veterinarians, therapists and horse owners
and
http://www.hoofcare.com…the horse world’s home page
for hoofcare information

contact points:
:::mailto:fran@hoofcare.com
::ffice tel:::USA 978 281 3222
:::mobile::: 978 857 5900
::::978 283 8775

by mail or courier:
::: Hoofcare Publishing
::: 19 Harbor Loop, Ground Floor
::: PO Box 6600
::: Gloucester MA 01930 USA

[Ponio]

slb- Thanks for all the tips/info! We actually had xrays done less than a year ago (as part of his pre-purchase). Now I just have to get them from the vet and to the farrier!

The bber previously known as 5mgn…

“The sweetest of all sounds is praise.” --Xenophon

[mcmIV]

OK - I’ll try for Zephyr.

I did some lines on the feet - I picked the Left Front side images.

First - don’t worry about his pastern angles, we have already decided that pastern angles are not what you should measure to - as they are not constant. See one of SLB’s fabulous posts in a previous page.

** my comments based on pictures provided, and MAYBE are incorrect if the picture is distorted due to angle! ** EDITTED NOTE! I posted this and IMMEDIATELY realized my post was based on thinking the original was BEFORE and AFTER, not the same trim. WHOPS. But that made me realize that my line drawing indicated something interesting… read on!

Here are the originals, without lines

So - After looking closely at them zoomed in - I think that the “Inside” has a more “under run” heel to it. The heels appears to be longer in relation to the foot, and its angle is more steep as illustrated by the blue line.

The Outside picture almost has a really nice heel - at least a good portion of the foot coming out of the heel is at a good angle, and seems as if it’s growing in on the right track.

So ”" basically there is a difference in the heel growth outside to inside on these LF’s. Maybe it’s camera angle. Maybe its causing these flares you mention…… or visa versa, chicken egg.

My other thought was that the toes could stand to be squared or shortened. They seem longish and pointyish.

I also stuck an interesting pic on the bottom of the image - the RF seems to have a dish in it? I know he is standing funny, but the HOOF should remain normal regardless of his “boney column”, right?

I didn’t look closely on the right front like I did the left’s, but it LOOKS a little clubby or something, but that dish is throwing me off. Am I seeing things?

The bottom’s don’t look good to me. You said that yourself. I almost wondered, on the whiteline spread, if it was a gravel or abcess or something. Other than “they don’t look good” ”" I have nothing constructive to add…. And that comment in itself, isn’t really constructive, so I’ll stop myself there.

Alright - I’m ready for another to critique my critique. Don’t take my word for it!

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **

[This message was edited by mcmIV on Mar. 04, 2003 at 08:05 PM.]

[mellsmom]

Robby-

How close are you to the track? Would it be hard to find out who did the shoeing? I think I’d try to use them if they were close.
My shoer (we loff him) actually worked briefly at Colonial Downs about 3 years ago. He’s very good, and very busy. He shows hunter jumpers so you gottal love a guy who has to schedule around shows.

“I’ve got a holiday, a paid holiday, I’ve got a holiday in my head”

[nikki3]

rt solar

[slb]

WOW Redpony…what a difference! You must be pleases.

This is a standard example of how quickly those underrun heels can be brought back into shape. The solar view looks nice…bars nice and straight, heels full and in good position at the back of the foot.

Thanks for posting the progressive shots…it really helps for everyone to see the way this can go.

All you guys still waiting for underrun heels to be fixed…this is a heads-up…it can and should be done in a few trims…it doesn’t take a year or more…unless the foot is really distorted.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

Oooo…my really fav subject!

First, in my enthusiasm about the subject, I don’t want to overlook the difficulties that you must be going through and want to say that this is one of the toughest “diseases” that horseowners encounter.

The first step is to get her comfortable. Taping foam to her feet is the best step…especially if she is barefoot. I am assuming that you are not using bute? If you are, please do not use it long term (2-3 weeks max). Long term use will actually encourage more lamintis in some horses as well as prevent healing in all horses. Check out the foam installation download at Hope for Soundness. Although a pia, this will be the better thing to do for the moment. When she is sound enough to move about comfortably, then you can boot her in Macs or something similar. Just remember that boots must be used short term/daily. The horse can’t live in them or you will get problems.

Exercise is also important…especially for a mare heavy in foal. She needs movement, but not forced. Whatever is within her realm of comfort. If she can be outside without other horses pushing her around, that is best. Also some brisk handwalking is good…up to 20 min/day. But, remember not to force her. If there is another, not too aggressive horse to turn her out with…one that will encourage her to move, but not push her around, that is best.

She will most likely abscess, if you soak her feet daily in epsom salts or apple cider vinegar (about 10 mins/2x) that will speed recovery from the abscess. Also, beware that she may abscess again after that…so further lameness may be from that.

The key is in teamwork. You need a farrier, vet, and yourself to work together closely and beable to discuss and agree on issues. It appears that you already have a negative minded farrier…as well as one that doesn’t understand the mechanics of founder or healing it. Returning the coffin bone to its natural orientation is the easy part. It only requires applying techniques that address optimal form and function. Keeping the toe wall parallel with the coffin bone and keeping the coffin bone in alignment with the ground. That is all that is neccessary (for the basics). If these two things are followed, the foot will recover and the horse will generally be sound. There are other things that need tweaking and addressing, but that is the basic principle. You need to find a farrier that is open-minded enough to attempt to fix the horse. Check out the BB and farrier finder at Hope for Soundness. There is also a trim tutorial to help you understand the basic principles.

The other issue is that you need to discover and eliminate the underlying cause of the laminitis. You should have bloodwork drawn to check for potential metabolic disorders like insulin resistance, thyroid, or mineral imbalances such as selinium and vit E deficiency. This is the most difficult and time consumeing part. You may never discover the underlying problem. But, if you don’t, it could very well happen again.

Check out the pics I posted earlier about how the coffin bone sits in a high heeled horse. This is similar to the rotation in a foundered horse. See how “easy” it was for the coffin bone to be “derotated” and why it happened. The two, as well as some instances of club feet are identical in cause and “treatment” from the aspect of the trim. If you are worried about ground contact with the frog and such, then you could look into EDSS system (Hope for Soundness) but, if the underlying trim isn’t appropriate, then the application of the shoe will not “fix” anything. Also, if the farrier doesn’t understand the method of application, it will fail.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

Asterix…I read the thread last night…I saw that you guys came over here for more info. Can’t wait to see x-rays and more pics.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

Bensmom…can you tell me if Bens hind feet have frogs that touch the ground? Also, do his bars curve in and are his heels sort of crumbly and not producing healthy horn?

How about Buzz…does he have this configuration?

Can you re-post the link to Ben’s x-rays…can’t seem to find it.

OK…never mind…I found them.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[This message was edited by slb on Mar. 31, 2003 at 03:41 AM.]

[This message was edited by slb on Mar. 31, 2003 at 03:44 AM.]

[slb]

nmb…thanks for the complement…glad I’m not a vet…job description is to tough.

Do you have feet to post for critique or to show us how good feet can be? We crave pics

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[YoungFilly]

Hi this is the post I posted about a week ago. She is due to get reshod this week. She really seems short in front. Any ideas? Thanks!

Hello, I posted a while ago about my horse (Dutch WB) having high knee action. My trainer feels that her gaits could be improved by using a different farrier who specializes in dressage horses. When I first purchased this horse in September, she had platter feet. She has only been shoed a handful of time over the winter, and only in the front. She is three, is there a big chance that she will out grow this type of movement? It’s very accentuated. Its not horrible, but as my trainer put it she needs to be freer in the shoulder. She moves more up and down than springy and sweepy. Thanks

[ponybreath]

Wow, great thread. I just read all of it at once. My question is pretty simple. Is it acceptable for your horse’s to occasionally bleed after they get reset? There is more to the story, but I’ll get to it tomorrow.
Thanks,
Meghan

[slb]

Charisma…your questions are not easy to answer. I think that it sounds like your farrier is addressing the issues with the feet and overtime, the stiffness may resolve itself, and it may not. Each case is so different that there simply can’t be any yes or no answers.

There are other issues that could be the cause of the stiffness…joint degeneration from unbalanced feet, heel pain (often classified as navicular) from contraction or imbalances, arthritis, nutritional deficiencies…specifically mineral or essential fatty acids.

It sounds like you are on the right path and that it will take time to determine what exactly all the problems are. I would give him more time to adjust to the new trim and to let his joint supplement take hold. Then look for other issues/answers.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

Bensmom…here’s another thought that might be easier to understand…this is a big generalization, but serves to simplify the aspects of “toe shortness”. If the spacial orientation of the coffin bone is correct (not rotated) and you parallel the dorsal hoof wall with the coffin bone, then the angle that it follows to the ground will be the correct length for that foot. In other words, to long a toe, or to short a toe is the result of the angle it assumes (unless it is to long from lack of trimming…which is a flare…like any other).

When the hoof capsule is not correctly aligned to the coffin bone, then the coffin bone will be “rotated”. This could be from actual rotation, or more commonly, from the hoof wall being allowed to grow away from its correct postition around the coffin bone.

How’s that?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

Hi everyone…sorry that I haven’t had time to answer questions lately…under the gun to get taxes done!

Anyway, thought that I would post these two very good articles that might help in filling in the gaps of my “simple” summaries of what is going on with balance and underrun heels.

http://www.equineoz.com.au/art20.htm (underrun heels)

http://www.equineoz.com.au/art14.htm (balanced defined)

Happy reading…

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

I’ll reserve my answer until I hear the whole story, but…I would generally question any bleeding (of the foot) that is a result of trimming.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Sudley4me]

Well, I don’t have any pics of just Sud’s feet, but my farrier always tells me how much he loves his feet!! He is like, if only I could clone his feet and put them on a about a dozen other horses, lol. So I guess my boy has good feet. He holds shoes sooooooo well and always looks like his feet are just done (around the shoe at least, like you can tell when they get long, but the hoof doesn’t go over the shoe and the nails don’t stick out). At least there is one great thing about my silly horse!

-Natalie

“All horses deserve, at least once in their lives, to be loved by a little girl.”

[dressager]

Quick update: The farrier was at the barn today and claims (broken english) that making the toe shorter and putting him more on his heels will make him lame. I have to call the vet before he will change anything.

I got down and really looked at the hoof. After doing so I really understand what you were saying slb.

Dressager
California, here we come!!!