I haven’t fully processed the definition of “tubules”. How does one know the specific direction these are growing?
martha
**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **
ooh, this is like a confessional. "you think YOUR horse had bad feet?! Look at MINE! " 
Anyway here is a pic of Kip’s sad little feet when I bought him. Kip is a 16.2, 1400lbs heavy boned horse–he could barely walk he was so sore. I’ll have to dig up some current photos. My farrier is my hero. Kip’s finally able to go barefoot this winter–it’s taken 5 yrs to get to this point!
Kip’s front
Fizz…what a tease! I can hardly wait 
Glad to hear you guy is getting better.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EventGurlie:
…but what is with the squaring of the front toe? The second farrier and my current farrier have done this with her and im not sure what the purpose of it is? She does have a tendency to rip her shoes off so i dont know if his is a reason they do this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that the “squaring” of the toes that you are seeing is from cutting them back to address two issues: long toe and point of breakover. Shortening the toe in this manner is sometimes called “extreme breakover” and is used on horses that have very oblong…long toe/underrun heels…feet. It is generally something that needs to be done for a period of “healing” time (several months to a couple of years) and then, the foot will begin to look more round and “normal” as it gains optimal form and function.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I dont know about what farriers to trust anymore and which ones do the best job…ahh i hate this part of it…but i will try to get pictures of her feet (solar, side, and head on) in the next couple days. thanks in advance<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, I think that as owners start to gain an understanding of correct form and function…something we used to leave up to the farrier…that we all face this delima. I think that as horses have become less expendable…as companions/friends rather than considered livestock…we are starting to want to take charge of their care and we want to learn how to go about it correctly. This is leading to some very interesting shifts in how we view what is optimal care vs just adequate care.
Waiting for pics…
~Nicole~[/QUOTE]
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
Bensmom…IMO, a horse should never bleed. Perhaps there is a time when it happens that I am unaware of, but, in my mind, if the horse bleeds from a trim, the farrier hasn’t a clue…or is pretty reckless with your animal. That’s like saying its ok for you to bleed when you cut your fingernails! 
If the horse bleeds, the farrier cut him too short, plain and simple. Even wnen resections are properly applied, there shouldn’t be any blood. The farrier should know when to stop. In order to draw blood you have to cut into sensative tissue…not acceptable! 
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
And the other side of both front…
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Whether they have access to a “good farrier” is another question…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That’s another good issue. From what I have seen, if the horse has been in pain for a considerable period, even if the trim isn’t the best, just a change in treatment (generally barefoot) allows the foot to rehab itself somewhat. This doesn’t neccessarily make the horse “sound”, but the improvement is generally so dramatic that the horse appears sound to the untrained eye.
Here’s a sad founder story for ya…
A horse was in such pain, that it walked backwards and dragged its front feet behind as it went. This lasted with “convention” treatment (actually some of the worst trimming/shoeing I have ever seen) for over a year. [Insert personal comment about quality of life here 
] The horse was put in a sling, shoes were pulled, and trimmed in a “natural” manner…it walked off “sound”.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
WOW nmb…I thought no one would ask 
Actually, thoughout the thread I have put in many disclaimers and there was a couple of inferences of where I get my info. But, you have asked a very valid question, so for the record here are my some of my sources:
I am a farrier’s wife, so we have lots of “feet” discussions in our house. Hubby specializes in theraputic cases and uses his own technique which parallels Ovnicek’s Natural Balance method in many ways.
I have been interested in “natural” trim methods for about 3 years and have tried to find every source I could to research the technique.
I am on several other boards that discuss nothing but feet and trimming (generally barefoot, but it is the underlying trim that counts…barefoot or shod).
Here are a list of some of the books that I have read:
Butler’s Horseshoeing Principles
Adam’s Lameness in Horses
A Lifetime of Soundness, Strasser
Shoeing in Your Right Mind, Butler
Color Atlas of the Horses Foot, Pollitt
Equine Locomotion, Back and Clayton
Preventing Laminitis in Horses, Mansmann and King
Founder Prevention and Cure the Natrual Way, Jackson
New Hope for Soundness, Ovnicek
The Natural Horse: Foundations for Natural Horsemanship, Jackson
Horse Owners Guide to Natural Hoof Care, Jackson
Understanding the Equine Foot, Jurga
Magazines we subscribe to:
Hoof Care and Lameness
The American Farrier’s Journal
The Anvil
The Horse
and numerous other general horsey mags
Online articles at these websites:
www.hopeforsoundness.com
www.barefoothorse.com
www.naturalhorsetrim.com
www.horseshoes.com
www.americanfarriers.org
www.hoofcare.com
http://cvm.msu.edu/RESEARCH/efl/publications.htm (Dr. Robert Bowker’s research)
www.thehorse.com
www.aht.org.uk
www.hoofproject.com
www.laminitis.org
And I have these videos:
Horse Foot Studies Video, Pollitt
EDSS Instruction Video, Ovnicek
Strasser Optimum Hoof Form - The Basic Trim
In the last year there have been some great new stuff released and I expect that I will be adding to this list over the summer.
As for my personal experience with trimming:
zippo, nada, nilch…I hold the horses while hubby trims. Like any owner, I only observe and ask questions. I don’t claim to have any more understanding than any other horseowner. And, I don’t claim to understand much in the way of actually trimming, other than the basics that most horseowners understand. I haven’t rasped a foot in over 20 years, and never took nippers or knife to one. I have little knowledge of applying shoes, but more of forge work (hubby was a blacksmith before becoming a farrier). However, I do know in theory the proper application of a shoe and understand basic use of therapeutic devices like wedges, pads, and frog/sole support. I only know from my husband’s success that correctly balanced and aligned feet make for sound, happy, healthy horses.
Hope you aren’t to disappointed…maybe you don’t approve. That’s ok too. I am only trying to share my knowledge and experiences. Not trying to force anyone into believing what I do. I am certainly no “expert” and find discussions like this to be exercises in knowledge for everyone. I certainly have learned from it! Just hoping that I can get others to research and try and gain an understanding of how the hoof functions and therefore how it should be trimmed to attain optimal form to accommodate that function.
So, do you disapprove? 
Forgot to add…we also have a shelf full of bones and a bunch of feet in our freezer. I think that disections are one of the best ways to understand what happens under different circumstances in the foot.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
[This message was edited by slb on Mar. 06, 2003 at 05:28 PM.]
Hey Libby and Martha…how about some comments on Zephyr’s feet!!!
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
Bensmom…sorry I am pressed for time, but here is a link that might help you understand how fast a horse can and should be balanced.
Look under case studies…3 (I think)…the unbalanced foot. Note how she indicated that she didn’t shorten the longer side, but let the shorter side grow to match it. This is what I suspect needs to be done on Ben. Maybe your farrier can see that! Maybe if you say…good job with this side, now take off the flare and get the other side to match in length, he will get a clearer pic and be more postive in his approach.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
HI.
Rugbug - I like the feet overall. I am obsessed with underrun heels, and I see little evidence of that - I guess they could be more perfect, I didn’t draw on them, but they look pretty darn decent.
Java has those ridgey bumps too. His aren’t quite as pronounced, but they’re obvious enough. He has them in front.
I have been really wondering what the heck they are. I was expecting them to go away with new shoeing, improved soundness through medication… nope. Fairweather once asked if he had foundered in the past because she saw those ridges. Nope, he hasn’t. Or if he did, he didn’t rotate.
I would agree with Riverdale’s assessment that it’s due to nutrition or disease… but Java is pretty freaking healthy. He is an easy keeper. He gets good quality hay and good pelleted feed. He is on MSM, Flax, Vit. E/Selenium, and sunnies, of course. He is super shiny, plump, and his personality has been stellar for months. I don’t buy that he has a deficiency or disease.
But obviously it’s SOMETHING… hmm… the ridges have been present for at least 2 years. He has only been on additional supplements above for 1 year or less. The ridges are still coming down…his new more balanced and correct shoeing has been underway for 6 months.
So I’m curious about the ridges! Keep offering detailed suggestions.
martha
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **
Your response came after the 2 weeks, but for an update on what happened since then and why I didn’t use that farrier…
The “junior” farrier that pulled my horse’s shoes just went to farrier school last summer, and last fall messed up her own horse so bad that he abcessed several times. Even SHE knows she is not equipped to handle a problem of this magnitude. …and since the initial 2 days, he became foot sore, and his condition deteriorated rapidly. For the rest of the story, see my post above yours.
Suffice to say, the other farrier was worth the wait - my horse has NEVER looked better…
Okay- here goes. I have always been relatively satisfied with the work our farrier does, nothing outstanding, but never any problems. We live in a rural area, and most of the farriers either specialize in racking/ walking horses or do not want to come out here for one horse. Well the last time he was here, he cut my mares rt front so short that (with shoes on) her frog was touching the ground. She was foot sore for a good two weeks (first all the time, then only when the ground was frozen) Then we had a few weeks of relative calm. Due to the weather I did not ride during this time, but I turned her out and put her up each day, and she was fine. As the feet started to grow back in, they did not match. Monday (a little over 7 weeks since last trim) I go out to the barn and she is lame, swollen right leg, although not hot. Hoof is warm, not hot. It was quite muddy, and I think she twisted/ stepped funny. Anyway I rubbed the leg down and kept her in that day. By evening the swelling was down, leg was tight and she was not as lame. By the next morning she wasn’t “lame”, a little off, taking smaller steps than usual, but no obvious favoring of either limb. That is how it stands now. Farrier comes tommorrow, and I am going to have to say something to him- right now I am inclined to just have him pull her shoes (she only has them on the front) and leave her barefooted until I find a new farrier. Am I over reacting? The things that concern me the most are 1) the feet clearly do not match 2) the rt front frog has went from a wonderful springy triangle to a shriveled, shedding one and 3) rt coronary band- what is that??? (see pics) Anyway I am anxious for everyones opinions and advice. I am pretty upset about this and am practicing what I am going to say, so I don’t start crying tomorrow
Thanks, Nikki
also- I apologize in advance for posting all these pics, I need help.
Your answers always help slb!
If you don’t mind, I am going to try and take some pics of his new shoes - maybe you could give your opinion on clinch height and shoe placement?
I haven’t ridden him since he got shoes yet to feel if he is off - I have only turned him out because he seemed a bit egg shelly the last two days. He trimmed a bit more of his toe this time it seemed, and did not touch his heels at all. Only trimmed the edge of the frog, but basically left everything else alone.
I appreciate everyones input on this thread - I have learned a lot so far, and am eager to learn more about the elusive “perfect hoof”.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by inspired:
UPDATE
The new farrier won’t be here for another 2 weeks, but over the weekend, I had someone else (new to shoing) come out to pull his shoes and give him a “pasture role” without taking off too much.
The result? Well, his toes are still too long (we intentionally didn’t try to fix that much), but his feet DO look closer to being balanced in back, AND his STIFLES are AMAZINGLY improved! I simply CAN’T believe how much better he’s walking!!!
Now, I’m REALLY looking forward to my new farrier!
YAY! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi. Sounds great about the trim helping your horse’s stifle. If the trim is this helpful, I’m wondering why you don’t just have this new person keep working on your horse, rather than the farrier that’s supposed to come in 2 weeks. Why not stick with the sure thing?
I posted back when the thread was in the teens - but wanted to report that when the farrier came yesterday she said his feet were looking really good (with, of course the caveat of "For Clancy). My walking on the paved roads had worn his feet down so she didn’t need to trim him, but said his soles were really tough and the walls looked good. The crack in the right front (caused by hitting a fence at coronary band) is now a ding, halfway down the hoof, and is NOT extending up. The one on his left, which he’s “always” had is the same - starts at coronary band, barely visible, and widens as it goes down.
She did not have the equithane, but tried something that was sort of like sillyputty, you mixed the 2 colors together and mashed it in the hoof. Then put shoe on with mesh and let it harden. Bottom line was one foot didn’t last the night, and the second looked ok, until I rode him, and then it looked like it would fall out soon.
Its very wet here, with mud, and I’m assuming this stuff just isn’t meant for muddy turnout. He’ll be OK without pads for this shoeing, and hopefully it will be dry in 6 weeks.
Hind shoes were pre-made, fairly wide web steel, with quarter clips fairly far forward.
Shortly after shoeing it began to pour, and I didn’t ride that day, but this morning took him out and he’s feeling good.
While it’s been frustrating not being able to ride faster than a walk while the remaining ice goes away, it actually did his feet some good. And the Keratex is helping too.
Update: I took the pictures this evening and will upload them to my site tomorrow.
Dressager
No two smart men ever agree on anything -Harry Truman
Some comments on hot nails…
You’ll need: 2 oz Scotch, 1 oz Drambuie, a dash of lemon juice, slice of lemon and orange, boiling Water, cinnamon stick… Oh, sorry, that’s another thread
There are a couple of ways that a hot nail can occur. One is to set the nail too close to the white line, the other is for the path of the nail to bend and come too close to the sensative tissue further up in. Also, the wall between the sensative tissue and the white line can be too thin. When this occurs, the horse might not ever be lame, or it might be lame a couple weeks after shoeing.
In some applications, I think that nails that are too big for the job might be a cause. With wide web shoes (like NBs) nail placement is criticle and small nails are required. Some farriers simply force fit larger nails into the holes. Also, if the shoe is being set back, there is a chance for a hot nail because of the placement of the nail groove in relation to the hoof.
I really shouldn’t even be commenting on this stuff because I haven’t had any experience with it. IMO…it simply shouldn’t happen. Once maybe, if the farrier is new to the horse. But, if it happened more than once…again another simple case of incompetent farrier, or one that simply doesn’t care about your animal. It’s just sloppy workmanship and shouldn’t be acceptable.
But, now that I ranted about that…
In this case, I guess there could be a chance that the hoof wall is very thin. If that is the case, then the farrier should seek alternatives…like barefoot or glueons…some farriers are now gluing on metal shoes. But, it still boils down to a problem with the application. The farrier should have the skill and knowledge to know if the foot needs alternative applications!
Do you think I am being too hard on your farrier? Geezzz Bensmom…I know uneducated iron hangers that have more sense than this guy. Sorry, but that’s my experience. Bleeding, hot nails…just unacceptable workmanship to me.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ponio:
Making not so great feet better…
My horse was started saddleseat at a fairly young age. This means they shod him and grew his feet long when he was about two. Because of this his feet never had the opportunity to develope and spread. His toes are always very long and it is nearly impossible to get them short enough and his angles aren’t that great. This causes the feet to be thinner at the toe so it is more brittle. He has good feet (as in the actual tissue is very healthy) but because of the way they grow they are not as strong as they could be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ponio…this is a good subject to bring up here. There is some question about returning the hoof to optimal condition if the underlying structures are damaged. Sometimes horses raised in stalls or soft paddocks with little turnout as foals…or for other reasons…develop misshapen coffin bones and support structures like the lamina and digital cushion lack integrety. Bowker even noted in his studies that there is a particular “ledge” that projects out from the lateral cartilages in some domestic horses with generally good feet (like Arabs) and not in those with poor or misshapen feet (like Standardbreds). To put it in terms relative to optimal function: “The foot hits the ground. The bars of the heel come up, hit the axial projection of the lateral cartilage (a tiny shelf of cartilage that sits under the digital cushion in many good-footed horses), which in turn collides with the digital cushion. Blood is sucked up and back from the front of the foot to the blood vessels in the cartilage. Healthy feet have thick cartilage with complex venous networks to transmit and dissipate energy. Unhealthy feet have thin cartilage, might lack the one-piece “shelf” under the digital cushion, and have blood vessels on the inside edge of the cartilage instead of imbedded in it.”
So, try as we might to restore optimal form and function to a horse that has sturtural deformitiies, it may not happen. But, the question here would be, should we try? From what I have seen, in general, yes, most horses benefit from it…some even regain the majority of optimal function. However, as with humans, there is no cure-all for anything…and words like always and never (and maybe even optimal) are scary and maybe shouldn’t be in our dictionary!
Ponio…we eagerly await your pics and will try to give you our best “guess” and only hope that we can give you some ideas to help your horse…
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
Bensmom…can you tell me if Bens hind feet have frogs that touch the ground? Also, do his bars curve in and are his heels sort of crumbly and not producing healthy horn?
How about Buzz…does he have this configuration?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmm – right off hand, I think both boys have frogs in back that are fairly normal, say, unlike Ben’s front feet but I will check for sure this afternoon.
Buzz is due to get reset today, (good thing too since he ripped a shoe off Saturday night apparently. <sigh> ) I’ve also asked the vet to come out at the same time, as Ben is still lame in his right front. We are almost positive that his heel is irritated down in the cleft where his heel is contracted – first from the farrier insisting on stuffing the area with cotton to try and treat the thrush and then from me using a harsh treatment to squirt down in there after the cotton caused too much pressure and was removed. Poor Ben. So, we are going to take a look and as I’m still not happy with Ben’s rear feet, we are going to address that area as well.
slb – This is turning out to be a nightmare of traditional thinking vs. what science can show us. Argghhhh. Would you ask your hubby why farriers are taught as an absolute that the side of the foot that lands first is the higher side of the foot. This would be true on an absolutely perfect otherwise foot, but the bones of the leg can affect what goes on below when the horse moves – i.e. a horse that has crooked legs could still land on the lower side of the hoof first in motion, as Ben does. This is where we are having a problem. <sigh>
Thanks for all the help!
Libby
Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique
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