Backstage…pics weren’t the best, but from what I could see…looks good to me. Can’t really say much else, except happy riding.
MyShadeofPing…really can’t tell too much from that pic. Could you get more shots straight from the side and a solar view if possible? Looks like there might be some problems, but its hard to tell from the angle.
Thanks for stopping by to play…this is a tough game to be in…but beneficial to our four footed friends 
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
5mgn and Martha…this is an excellent issue to discuss in a foot thread 
First a disclaimer…this is a highly subjective and controversial subject and the following will be my opinion only…
There are several reasons to apply hoof dressings…or not to…but that is the question
First, I would warn that any dressing or oil that is applied directly to the hoof wall is most likely to hinder than help. Generally it seals out moisture and prevents the hoof from “breathing”, “drinking”, and otherwise normally functioning in that manner. Sort of like the difference between blankets that breath and those that don’t.
Second, IMO, if you need to “oil” the hoof wall, it is best done from the inside rather than the outside. Adding essential fatty acids (omega 3s and 6s found in flax and sunnies) is a far better way to address the issue.
And finally, if the environment is extremely dry and you need to address the issue, then there are a couple of ways that you can do this. Long term, like for desert terrain, provding a soaking area near the water tub or else where (but one that utilizes natural behavior to encourage soaking) is the best way to address hoof dryness. For short term applications…like when the ground gets dry during midsummer heat spells…then natural applications of oil that are high in essential fatty acids (like fish or flax) applied to the coronary only, is the best and most natural approach.
If the foot is healthy, and the environment is supportive, then I never soak or apply hoof dressings. However, if there is indications that there is an issue with either, then I address it in one way or the other (soaking pool or hoof dressing). I don’t generally consider small surface cracks something that need to be addressed. However, if the crack goes deeper, or there is excessive chipping or other problems, then I first look at form and function before even considering that there might be an issue with “over dryness”.
If I didn’t address some of your questions…ask again…I’ll catch it in the next round
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
Thanks, SLB, for the info. I figured that I must have missed something in the translation. That makes a lot more sense to me now. I had a farrier trying to apply NB methods to trimming my horse and it just never worked. I think that this was one of the reasons why. I now have a wonderful farrier that does understand where correct breakover should be and it looks like your “good foot” picture. Lucky me! Thanks a lot!
What to do on a wet rainy Saturday morning?
“Don’t mince words, don’t be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive”
Madonna
Hmm – I don’t know that I’ve ever noticed a big discrepancy between the fronts in real life. I’ll run out there now and check and maybe re-shoot those feet – it might have been the camera angle?
Good eye!
Libby
Bensmom…now I know who you are…you got some great toys…do you like the Rayteck? Hubby uses something similar. Did you get your video yet…how was it? 
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
However, I wouldn’t worry as much about that as I would all the other stuff. 
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for your thoughts, slb.
I have to admit, I knew there were some problems, but I honestly didn’t think it was as bad as all that! 
(I’m referring to the sole pic.) I mean, when I bought him I thought to myself, “What fabulous feet! Nice and round, and tough. He’ll never need shoes!” All I’m saying is that it’s a bit nervewracking to find he’s actually got some pretty bad issues.
Don’t worry, I won’t do anything drastic myself. Maybe after his regular farrier does him in 3 weeks, I’ll take more pictures and see if you think he’s improved.
I do have one more question. Martha mentioned that pastern angles had already been determined not to be a factor. But you mention a “broken back axis.” What is the difference? Sorry if this seems like an elementary school question.
Thanks!
I went out and took some photos at the end of my ‘roll’ on the digital camera of hooves, just for you guys! They’re the feet of a 20y/o Trakehner x Arab mare who’s a former eventer and is now teaching me the ropes of eventing and first level dressage. 
(sorry its not on more level ground/clearer and cleaner…was sort of last minute)
http://www.geocities.com/tingastar//gaylafeet.html
[This message was edited by spring on Feb. 21, 2003 at 12:35 AM.]
Hey babe, it’s a tough world out there.
But there’s plenty to go around.
Regards John
Hey, you guys are great. There are people that start slipping away when I start talking about Ben’s feet, and have flat passed out when I start on the little monster’s feet story. I will go there tomorrow.
Now, for the lame horse one:
This is a 13 year old QH who has been chronically lame for 3 years. Was acute at first, got better on joint stuff for a while, was sound under light flatwork, started back over low jumps, lameness came back, but was still intermittant.
Diagnostics: Treated as a stone bruise for a long time, then finally x-rayed, no changes at all on x-ray. Went finally to Ocala when local vets stumped. Horse was barely lame enough to block – vets there decided it was DJD in the coffin joint. Coffin joint injected with HA and Steroid. No improvement. Adequan series done with no improvement. When lameness came back last year, we injected coffin joint again, no improvement. Diagnostics were on the slim side then because of monetary considerations.
Horse went back to light work in December and everyone has been holding our collective breath. The only lameness was when he pulled a shoe recently. He went back to work after that and was lame on Monday.
At this point, owner has a big credit balance with a different vet in preparation for finally trying to find the problem. I called the vet (this horse is one in my boarding group at this barn – I’m not really the manager – i.e. they don’t pay me board, but I buy the hay, bedding, feed etc. for this family’s horses along with my own) and said “we got a horse finally lame enough to block, let’s get started.”
Now, this family, while nice and in horses for years, doesn’t really have a clue on technical stuff, so I finally have asked to please let me help. I haven’t touched the issue of his feet, though, because they have used the same farrier for years, and he is well respected, but utterly uninterested in change, and really hates for clients, or nosy clients of other farriers (me) to even ask questions.
I have just picked up this family’s other horse and brought it home – daughter has been living in MD, and shipped horse home ahead of her move. I was asked to get her feet done before daughter comes home. Their farrier doesn’t do horses that might be difficult, so they let me ask my excellent farrier to do her, so the vet and I conferenced on her feet on Sunday, and my guy is going to do her.
When the same vet pulled the bell boots off of the lame horse yesterday, he referenced that conversation and just kind of pointed to this horse’s feet. I was mortified.
Horse has really badly underrun heels, his feet look almost a size smaller than they used to, the wedge pads have crushed the underrun heels, and his weight bearing surface has slid way forward. The right front foot, in fact, is now more narrow and contracted, not a “club” foot, because the heel isn’t long and upright, but the front has the same appearance as Ben’s club foot used to.
I’d like to see him with some changes, and I’ll take pictures of his front feet today and post those tomorrow for your opinions. I don’t want to insist that they switch farriers, because it is possible that this one might make requested changes, but it isn’t going to be easy. I’d love to see this horse in poured pads – to reduce concussion if it is DJD of the coffin joint, and to spread weight bearing over the foot.
The vets blocks yesterday were only partially conclusive. We got 50% improvement with just the coffin joint blocked, 60% with more of the foot, and 80% with the whole foot. We are going to wait a couple of days and block just the pastern joint to see what we get.
There has to be some way to help this horse. I did tell his owner that there probably isn’t a “cure” for what’s wrong with him, but I can damn sure work on a way, through shoeing and palliative care to manage this problem where he doesn’t have to retire. There has to be a way – right? Keeping in mind that he is only barely lame as it is, but I just know somewhere there’s an answer . . .
I’ll put up pics of him and Buzzy tomorrow!
Thanks for any input!
Libby & Bear, who’s tired of being lame
[This message was edited by Bensmom on Feb. 06, 2003 at 08:14 AM.]
slb, hi, I’ve been watchin, and you’re doing a great job. I didn’t have any earth moving comments to add.
Libby, I just feel so bad for Ben’s recent regression. Sure looks like “busy farrier foot” to me. 
Take a deep breath and just get on his case to get back to what ya had goin that worked so well. You know this horse inside out and ya care a whole lot about his well being.
What if you offered to pay your farrier on a hourly basis? Just so he can take the time in his mind to get around the problem, instead of gotta get to the next place to make the $$$$ for that truck/mortgage/whatever payment.
I thought he was into goin the extra on this pony.
I still think that if Ben could go just a few days barefoot in the sand to let those burps in his coronet band straighten out,then trim him and hot shoe him would help.
Regards John
Spring ! check yer attachment!
martha
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:
Hilary – It sounds like you will be really pleased with the pour-in pads. I wonder if you’d need both? I wonder if pouring him at first with the equi-build (the black stuff) would give you the stabilization you need, without needing to do the bondo as well. Ben was the bondo foot king at one point, and we found that once we started pouring him, he grew more sole, and hoof wall, and his whole foot is more stable and we haven’t needed any bondo in ages. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bensmom…you’re right…generally all that is needed to to stablize the foot and the rest will heal, strengthen, and grow. One thing that needs to be said about putting full support of any sort on the bottom of the foot…when the foot is supported in this method, it should be realized that there is a chance of resulting pressure points. These points can cause abscessing, sole corium damage, or other problems. The best thing to do is use hoof testers to find any sensative spots and relieve those particular places to prevent damage from pressure.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ok, Buzz is in wedge bars because he is pretty poorly conformed in front. When I bought him, he stood waaaay behind his feet, so to speak. On his left front, he has a hideous old bowed tendon (the leg turns out about 15-17 degrees in front without a little correction and yes, he is a cousin of Slew! ) and he had lonnnng toes and really low heels.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you sure that this is just a “conformational” fault? I agree that a twisted leg is a problem…and can obviously be genetic. However, when a horse stands under himself or behind his feet, then it is generally more likely a foot form problem. I have even seen horses so over at the knee that they could barely walk become sound and straight in leg and alignment in a few months.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The farrier trimmed him the first time, put fronts on the second time, and I was really unhappy. So, I met with the vet and we decided to shorten the toes and set the shoes back – farrier claimed I just wanted a second horse with a club foot, but he did it, and then stated that I was right, that was what this horse needed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, I think that it is becoming apparent from this thread that this is the way to treat most pathologies. It was his long toes that were causing his heels to run forward and thus the whole foot moved forward. Here’s hoping the farrier learned that this is a correct foot form and didn’t go away thinking that it was just something that “this” horse needed.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
He’s better but not 100%, so I start really thinking about this – i.e. I am dreaming about horse feet (I think there is a pattern here!) I realized that his boney column support is still bad, even with the short toes and farther back breakover. It occurs to me that to rotate through its motion, the fetlock joint is still having to go too far forward over the long toe, and worse yet, dropping way too far to the ground, since there is no support under it at all. Therefore, anything more than w/t work is going to probably aggravate a joint that is low on lubrication at this point anyway.
So, I ask for a shorter toe and we decide to see if the bar shoes help with his support issue.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good thinking!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> They do, but he is still having an occasional flareup in his ankle…and we looked at his feet/conf really hard. We decided he still had a low/slightly underrun heel, so I asked my farrier if he could build these shoes into wedge shoes (I HATE wedge pads and though that would have helped the ankle, it would have further crushed those heels).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good thinking again.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>First, his ankle is finally standing more over his foot. He’s been back in almost daily work (he doesn’t do much, since he doesn’t KNOW anything) but some days he’s worked pretty hard, and the ankle has not flared up yet (I feel as if I am jinxing myself!) As we got started back to work, I did bute him lightly (1 gram at bedtime) if he worked really hard, just to be careful. He hasn’t had any bute in a while, and seems to be doing ok. The second benefit to this shoe is that while his heel isn’t really floated, it has been given room to expand, and darned if it isn’t growing down to meet the bar. We’d like to encourage the heel to do what the bar shoe is doing and that is our goal – to one day not need them. I don’t know if we’ll get there, but we are trying.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, this is exactly the premis behind correctly applying wedges…and it should work. How long has he been in the bar wedges? If the farrier is correctly addressing the heels and not just letting them sit there and do “their” thing, then his trimming should encourage correct downward growth (rather than forward) and it should happen relatively quickly…within a few months…unless the foot is growing slowly (like in the winter).
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wanted this type of shoe on Bear, who is the navicular horse, but his farrier doesn’t believe that the wedge on the bottom of the shoe works – like the KB shoe- he thinks that the wedge will just sink into the ground and not do what it is intended to do. I can see that argument, but it is obviously helping my horse and must work for others, or the idea wouldn’t have been developed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, logic would make us believe that this is the case. However, I think that Ovnicek’s studies revealed why this works. He discovered that feral horses on soft ground develop something like a “hook” on their heels. It’s hard to explain, but the heel isn’t really high, but has more height to it in the rear in the form of what appear to be “hooks” (because of the scooped quarters that lead into them). These “hooks” break the ground surface and do sink…a system that is very similar to the exterior shoe wedges (my hubby useds bolts on each heel sometimes…even more chance of sinking). The facinating thing was that the heels were “highest” on the soft terrain horses and non-existant on the hard terrain horses…their heels never break the surface and land on top of it instead. The medium terrain horses had a heel somewhere in between the two extremes. The results were that regardless of the terrain, the working angle of the foot (from the dorsal hoof wall to the ground) evidenced no significant difference between the different terrain/hoof types.
Is this begining to make more sense all the time?
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
OK…you should know my disclaimer by now
This is Bear…right?
No wonder he came back with a navicular diagnosis.
His toes are way too long resulting in the foot being too far forward in general. Heels, of course, are underrun. Pads are probably hindering…crushing…rather than helping. I’m guessing that he is contracted in the heels and that if we saw his whole leg, he has a broken axis…that’s probably why he is in wedges. Are you looking for optimal treatment (= $$) or are you looking for pointers to get this done economically?
Martha…hope you don’t mind my jumping in here to comment on your question to HS…
Although some farriers at some point seem to learn the concept of a “straight” hairline and how to get rid of those “bumps”, it was a farrier named Lyle “Bergy” Bergeleen who explained the idea in his book “Hooftalk: The Hairline Tells It All”. Probably one of the most significant contributions to modern farrier. You can get the book from his web site or Amazon for under $20.
http://www.hooftalk.com/
The reason that the “bumps” happen are because uneven distribution of load results in groups of horn tubule being displaced upwards putting pressure on the hairline and creating distortions. Simply put…an unbalanced foot causes uneven load distribution and the hairline bulges from the forces.
I don’t really know why the foot will react quickly and return to a straighter hairline…I’ll let HS tell you about that…but, I suspect that it is because we are dealing with a rather flexible structure (evidenced by its mechanics during loading) that acts much like plastic. Therefore, removing the solid support of the shoe from under the foot allows release of the pressure (unless the terrain is too hard) and lets the horn return to its normal postition resulting in the hairline doing the same.
Hopefully HS will exand on this…
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
Martha – I see a tremendous difference! Good job – I was expecting to think “hmmm – put back shoes back on” just because I have a real “thing” about either shoeing all four or none at all, but I didn’t think that at all – the back feet look great!
What a difference good feet make!
Libby
Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique
Bensmom…here’s Ben’s feet with lines drawn on them so you can see the imbalances. I used the exact same lines for the sides of the feet and superimposed them on each wall. The left side was done first and then flipped to create the same line at the same angle going the other way…does that make sense…you know what I mean…right The lines at the hairlines are also the same…copied from one to the other.
On the side views, these again are the same lines on the front and back hoof walls…again transfered from one foot to the other. The hairline angles are also the same lines.
So, without words, expecting that an optimal foot would be “straight” along these lines, can you see how imbalanced the feet are? Can you see the problems that the trim is creating?
Opps…forgot the pics…
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
Bensmom…got lucky…hubby doesn’t usually do this, but he actually sat down and discussed Buzz’s feet with me. So, here’s a professional’s suggestions and not my lamea$$ guesstimates
We discussed the hair line and why it does what it does. He suggested that it buldges up because the foot only makes contact with the shoe in the quaters. He said this is typical of a cold sets comparted to hot sets…too much contact in some areas and none in others. Additionally, he said this is the type of problem that you can pull the shoe, trim a little, wait a while (20-60 min) and the foot will already be reformed to get a better looking hairline. Then he said trim again and it will be nearly perfect. He also suggested that this was the type of problem that you could pull the shoes and let the horse fix itself…in a year his feet will be great with just minor adjustments in the meantime to avoid overgrowth in problem areas.
Now, for Bear…he didn’t spend as much time looking at his feet, but here were his suggestions: That wedges were needed…but he doesn’t typically use wedges, so he would put a bar across the spand of the heels or bolts on the bottom of the shoes. Then he would slowly take them down as the heel came into postion. He would just move the toe back as far as possible and keep trimming the heels back until they were in correct position. He does this nearly the same as can be found in Ovnicek’s tutorial. at www.hopeforsoundness.com .
Hope this helps
Hi EqTrainer…I am fairly new here myself…so welcome aboard
I saw your post in another foot related thread here…good info. Glad you stopped by to take a look…we are having great fun here and learning a lot. After seeing your advice in the other thread, I think it would be beneficial if you commented on some of the feet here. While we have similar ideas, you seem to focus/state your views differently than I do.
About sunnies…there is a sizable thread about the benefits, hows, and whats of feeding black oil sunflower and flax seeds…generally known as the sunnie-flax thread here. If you are interested in nutrition, then take a look at that…should be in the first three pages as it is often reserected for further additions.
Looking forward to any contributions you may make to this thread
Hey…thanks for the link Natural hi…looks like good products, and an interesting approach with the “bracelets”…I like it
We use a similar product called ShurHoof…it is also only applied to the coronary band and has oils. These types of products seem to be very handy when it comes to those “dehydrated” times of the year. I have seen surface cracks disappear in a few hours with an application to overly dry feet.
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