And the hind feet -
He travels very close behind (don’t know if that has anything to do with feet) and his sacrum can get out of whack causing a weaker left side when he’s in need of a chiro visit.
EqTrainer, asked hubby about x-rays and he said he likes to see lateral, dorsal and caudal/palmar (same) views.
Hope that helps.
slb - thank you 
. I had looked at that site previously, but they didn’t have the tutorial posted then. I’ll sit down tonight when I have more time and read the whole thing.
I’m just frustrated that she had been progressing so well then in one trim was set so far back. When I asked, the farrier could not give me a good reason why he trimmed her differently. The only straight answer I could get out of him was that - she’s two now and this is the way she’s going to be - line. 
I’ve also been increasingly unhappy with how he’s been shoeing the horses I care for here. The farm owner actually made a comment last time because he left her precious old gelding with feet that were 4 different lengths and 4 different angles.
I’ll have to see if I can get to use the digital camera to take some photos. I’d be interested in what you all think of some of these hooves.
martha - I’m probably using the wrong term , but what I’m looking at is the “grain” of her hoof. From what I’ve read and been taught, the “grain” should be completely perpendicular to the ground. Cassie’s LF is deffinitely not perpendicular - from the top to bottom it is angled from inside to outside. I’m sure somebody who knows more will answer 
Ahh… I see. Now Cassie said that she thought they should be growing perpendicular to the ground. Is this right? It seems to me like they should be growing at the same angle the pastern is…sort of like the hoof angle should match the pastern…
Is that right? I will observe tubules tomorrow at the barn.
martha
**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **
EqTrainer & slb, might I just throw in that it’s nice to have a small light wire taped to the toe, to better identify the true position of the coffin bone in the foot relative to the hoof wall. Takes out the guess work. 
Also a thumb tack in the frog, about 3/8 " back from the apex of a slightly trimmed frog.
Regards John
Well I went back and looked at those bumps. Yes, they are there, but they’ve been there a while and he’s not sore at all, and when he was vetted 18 months ago his flexions were totally non-reactive, and his X-rays were clean. Doesn’t mean things don’t change, but I’m pretty sure this is not new.
He toes out badly on that foot, though, from the shoulder.
In this neck of the woods, most horses have more problems with too much moisture in the ground, leading to soft hooves, so my farrier usually does not recomend any sort of oil, but as I mentioned I’ve started him on keratex hoof hardner. He definitely has poor hoof wall quality. Thin and flexible - so flexible in fact that he polishes his shoes to a miror shine and wears away any hoof growth between shoeings. He’s shod every 5-6 weeks March -Nov. and given the winter months barefoot with no real work. Trail rides when the weather permits.
I will have the farrier and chiro talk about making his hind feet more level and how it might affect/be affected by his hip/sacrum issues.
After I had him thoroughly (expensively) vetted with X-rays everywhere, my other older vet eyeballed him up and down and said “well, they’ve been holding him up this far, they seem to be meeting his needs” or something to that effect. He’s 14 this year.
After reading all these things about feet and everything its just making me more concerned about my own horses feet. When I originally bought my mare her feet were in HORRIBLE condition, i mean chopped WAY too short w/ too small shoes on top of that and mis-shapen feet w/ all different angles, she also only had about 4mm of sole as we had found out later w/ x-rays, her hind feet had almost no heel at all too, and they were just pretty awful all around. Well its been a year and they are now appearing pretty normal but I am not completely surewhat exactly is considered “normal”. I’ve owned this mare for a little over a year now and we are on our 4th farrier. Farrier #1 was Great and was definately the one to take the cake for getting her feet on the right track. but when i moved barns he was not willing to travel that far. So along comes farrier #2 who liked to leave 'em long in the toe and w/ this farrier she started getting flares and we just werent happy with the job so along comes farrier #3 who shaped her feet bettr and did a good job so i thought…but he decided he didnt want to travel that far either so then we have my current farrier who said "that she has pony shoes on and they were way to small…so her feet look pretty good right now and her hind feet look the best they have ever looked…but what is with the squaring of the front toe? The second farrier and my current farrier have done this with her and im not sure what the purpose of it is? She does have a tendency to rip her shoes off so i dont know if his is a reason they do this? I dont know about what farriers to trust anymore and which ones do thebest job…ahh i hate this part of it…but i will try to get pictures of her feet (solar, side, and head on) in the next couple days. thanks in advance
~Nicole~
I agree with Bensmom…that’s nice progress on Java. I don’t think you could ask for much more. Looking forward to seeing the next reset. Curious…do you think he is happier without the back shoes?
Now…there is one thing I see that I am not quite sure of. The hairline angle on the back looks good, but on the front, there seems to be a small bump in the hairline (in the quarter) that wasn’t there before…maybe an illusion, delusion, confusion, or some other “usion” Perhaps something to check out. If it is there, it needs to go…created by pressure. The heels still look a little high…need to come down some…but you should be very happy with overall progress. Just make sure that you can still see progress as time goes.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
You got that right Martha
My vet, who had a problem horse of her own, worked closely with her farrier (my hubby) and discovered all the things that can be changed when feet are correctly balanced. She says now, unless he is doing the horse’s feet, that is the first thing she looks at when an owner asks for evaluation of upper body problems. She has noted that it is almost always the case…or at least adds to an existing problem.
I think that part of the problem is that so little time is spent on trimming and shoeing application in vet school…anatomy seems well covered, but form and function not…that its importance becomes obscured.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
Fizz…bring on those pics!!
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don’t worry, I haven’t forgotten!! I’m picking up the digital camera tonight (borrowing my mom’s fancy one), and should get some good pictures on Saturday. So everyone please keep this topic going while I catch up! I’m really interested to see what you all think about Aspen’s purdy feet… they look darn good to me, but what do I know?
I think I’ll also get some pictures of Sully’s feet… he’s really upright in front with LOTS of heel, because we have been working with the vet to relieve the pressure on his navicular cyst, as well as help his deep digital flexor tendon to heal. For a while he was on wedge shoes PLUS a 6 degree wedge pad!! 
He looked like he was on his tippy toes! Wish I had a picture of that! He’s back to regular shoes, but still with a lot of heel, and will be barefoot his next trim. By the way, this is my retired eventer, and has been off since June when we found this cyst. He’ll at least make for an interesting discussion.
Ooh, I almost forgot – I also have some xrays of his feet before the cyst was discovered (the durn thing didn’t show up until the digital xray), and my vet drew in some really cool diagrams showing his incorrect angles. Such that even I could understand! I will scan those in too.
Now I KNOW you are all waiting with baited breath.
'Til then, carry on!!
where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?
Betsy! At first glance I thought “wow his feet look great considering what she just told me!” …
They do look pretty good… Based on what I know I’d say the shoeing is pretty good.
When I looked back again, the turned left foot lets you see the heel a little better, and it’s still rather underrun.
I might believe what my farrier told me, that some amount of slopey heel is just “the way they’re conformed”. But I think that statement only applies to those horse’s who aren’t perfect, but darn close, despite efforts to make them perfect.
So I suppose that’s my only critque - long heel that’s too far forward. Rx - trim it off SLB and HS say! I like that the shoe is set back, and his toe is squared. That’s why I would think you have a concientious(sp?!) farrier who is working towards fixing them.
martha
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **
Dune…glad to clear up the confusion. The sad reality is that so many farriers that try to apply NB principles seem to have the same confusion. This is why there are some real horror stories of NB (mis)applications.
Glad you got a good farrier and are seeing feet like they should look. Please stay onboard and ask some more questions…
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
Looking forward to them fizz!
I may take some updated pictures of Java’s #2 shoeing towards good feet. He has natural balance shoes on his fronts now and I took the shoes off his backs.
I am fearfull he will get his long toe and bad heels back quickly without shoes, but I thought I’d try it. He did tell his communicator he hated them. 
Besides, in the winter, he either needs traction (which = torque) or no shoes… cause it’s too icey here! My farrier thinks they will hold their nice shape fine…
martha
**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **
This is a product that I use to help all my horse’s feet.It is called Winstons 514
www.Winstons514.com you can read about “fanci” in the testimonials.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:
hmmmm – I don’t think we can do barefoot with Mr. Bear, at least at this point. He is pretty lame without them, and with them, even with this rotten trim, he is only barely lame with them on, and that is really surprising considering how bad his changes look.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is where picture assessments fail us…really need to be there to make these types of recommendations. I think you are doing alright Libby…just follow your instincts and get good feet on him in shoes and then I bet he might be able to go barefoot…at least some of the time.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It is interesting that in the films taken when he first went lame, you can hardly see anything at all, and he was really lame and in the recent ones, there are lots of visible problems and he is only off sometimes and usually not more than 1 or .5 grade lame. The interesting part of this seems to be that the bone spurs you can see on the top of his navicular bone could have been started by a tearing away of one or the other or both of his sesmoidian ligaments. He originally went lame after crashing through a fence and he and the rider went down in a heap. They never did an u/s to look for a ligament problem because he blocked to his PDN, but it is worth keeping in mind. I wish I could go back in time . . . oh well, hindsight and all that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yup…all this could present some problems in trying to keep him sound, but I am betting that with a good foot under him that he will be at least greatly improved…possibly sound for a long time.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I agree with you guys about the underlying trim being your most important consideration – without a good trim, your shoes are going to be no help. But what do y’all think about the idea that sometimes, when nature hasn’t provided enough, using the shoe to augment what should be there – i.e. more support behind the heel, and actually under the canon bone on a horse like Buzz, who has long angled pasterns and is not built to properly support his front end?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree…that is why it is so wrong for the “all horses can be barefoot” idea. If they were in the wild and natural selection provided their feet, yes…then this works. But, human intervention in breeding, management, and foot care presents some issues that simply can’t be addressed barefoot. However, I didn’t really see where Buzz was “weak” in his pasterns…just a little long…but, I’ve seen worse. You do raise a good issue though…about the support being under the boney column. The problem is, the foot is often taken or allowed to get too far forward…especially if the heels are underrun and/or toes are too long. Addressing the issue of alignment is just as important as addressing proper hoof form…although generally, alignment follows form.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Martha, that is exactly what this vet was quoting an expert as saying – an horse with badlly underrun heels is unfixable. This local vet and my farrier don’t believe that, but this vet does have some issues with the idea of cutting the heels to regrow them properly – all he could tell me was that he didn’t think it worked – thoughts?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
All I can tell you is that my husband does this all the time. Every time I have him look at these pics, he just keeps saying “cut the heels down, get them back where they belong”. I think HS would agree with this also. I have seen hubby take all sorts of underrun feet and get correct form in a matter of a few trims…it of course depends on how fast the horse grows new foot, but even for slower growth and really bad cases, it generally only takes a year to see optimal form.
Libby…I think that you keep dwelling on “can this happen?” You need to consider “this can happen!” I have seen it too many times to be skeptical! The foot (and horse) is an incredible thing and given the opportunity, it can recover from many wrongs that we have bestowed upon it…just think about how badly damaged a foundered foot must be…they often recover fully from that too
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
OK Martha…just becasue you won doesn’t mean that you get off the hook! 
Get busy and make some comments on those pics
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
Hey, slb – this is pretty scary – leaving the real amateur to discussing the posted feet . . . Have you lost all enthusiasm since we passed the sunnieflax thread? 
Anyway, fwiw, Eventgurlie, this is what I see:
Left front: Toes look too long, but the heel doesn’t look bad. On this foot, as well as all the rest, I’d look closely at the medial/lateral balance, as all four look a little tilted to the outside to me, but that may be just a camera trick.
Right front: The heels here look a little underrun and the toe too long here as well. Again, I would check the medial/lateral balance.
Left hind: The heels back here look a little more underrun to me, and the medial/lateral balance a little more off. Again, it may be a camera trick, but it appears that the frog even sits at an angle.
Right hind: I see an underrun heel, and almost a flare on the outside of the foot, which depending on who you ask can mean that he is high outside or high inside – the dip in the cb suggests though that it is in fact, leaning.
Ok, Martha, slb, HS – are you still out there? Am I right, wrong, or just utterly misguided?
Libby
Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique
Okay, it was raining so hard I didn’t get to take any more pictures, but I will check the medial/lateral balance tomorrow. I hadn’t noticed just how bad Bear’s was – his foot is shaved there for the coffin joint block, so it is really apparent. I have noticed that the picture distorts somewhat, so I’ll check in real life and see what we’ve got.
One thing we have is a diagnoses on him now.
It is still tentative and we aren’t sure how advanced it is, but the vet has diagnosed Navicular.
So, with that in mind, take a look at his shoeing job, keeping in mind that the farrier didn’t know he was Navicular and tell me what you’d change. This is the set of pics that just has the front feet.
Thanks!
Libby
Ok LIbby - how bout this!
Foot Obsession Clique (hoof, that is)
or even
** Hoof Fetish Clique ** That has a nice ring to it!
martha
**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **
slb – you can’t be bored, you’ve spent the afternoon analyzing my posts and Buzz’s feet!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Bensmom…you’re right…generally all that is needed to to stablize the foot and the rest will heal, strengthen, and grow. One thing that needs to be said about putting full support of any sort on the bottom of the foot…when the foot is supported in this method, it should be realized that there is a chance of resulting pressure points. These points can cause abscessing, sole corium damage, or other problems. The best thing to do is use hoof testers to find any sensative spots and relieve those particular places to prevent damage from pressure.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah, a good point. We did find that Ben was a little tender footed for the first couple of days in the firmer pour material. It didn’t last long, but shoot, there were parts of the sole of his club foot that hadn’t had any pressure on them in ages so it wasn’t much of a surprise. We have not had, (knocking on wood) problems with bruising or abcessing under this pour – I wonder if it is because the equi-pak is so flexible? Hmmm – as my vet would say, except that he is forbidden to use this word in relation to my horses – Interesting.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Are you sure that this is just a “conformational” fault? I agree that a twisted leg is a problem…and can obviously be genetic. However, when a horse stands under himself or behind his feet, then it is generally more likely a foot form problem. I have even seen horses so over at the knee that they could barely walk become sound and straight in leg and alignment in a few months.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is a really good question, because, now that you mention it, you don’t look at him and go “wow! What long sloping pasterns” If I can remember, I’ll take a pic of his leg and see what you guys think.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yes, I think that it is becoming apparent from this thread that this is the way to treat most pathologies. It was his long toes that were causing his heels to run forward and thus the whole foot moved forward. Here’s hoping the farrier learned that this is a correct foot form and didn’t go away thinking that it was just something that “this” horse needed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unfortunately, no. He seems to think it is an aberration that just Buzz needs. <sigh>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yes, this is exactly the premis behind correctly applying wedges…and it should work. How long has he been in the bar wedges? If the farrier is correctly addressing the heels and not just letting them sit there and do “their” thing, then his trimming should encourage correct downward growth (rather than forward) and it should happen relatively quickly…within a few months…unless the foot is growing slowly (like in the winter).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
He seems to be growing heel downward, and has been in the wedges only four weeks, I think. I’ll have to look back in this thread, 'cause I posted on the night we put them on him. His heels look so much better, so hopefully it is working.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Is this begining to make more sense all the time? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I hope so! But, between this thread, the posts on the Horsescience board and all the articles I printed yesterday, my nightmares will definitely be about hooves!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Bensmom…don’t remember seen a reply to this…does the same farrier do Ben’s and Buzz’s feet?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes’m. And until this last problem with Ben, he’s been delightful to work with and happy to try everything we’ve needed. Unfortunately, Ben still isn’t quite Right, and I’ll ask about that in a different post.
Thanks for putting support behind my idea to support Buzzy’s boney column. It was my idea, and it seems to be helping. The little monster tore a shoe off yesterday, though, and sure enough, his ankle was a little warm yesterday evening. So, #1 get the inflammation out, so he had bute in his bedtime snack, and he was pretty quiet in turnout today – and the ankle seemed fine tonight. We’ll know for sure when the shoe goes back on. I did get to leave the farrier his favorite message “We Found The Shoe!”
Libby
Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique
