Mare’s all 4
She is not standing square at all. I had to get below her feed bucket and she was then trying to eat the camera. Though I think you can see a pretty decent look at how her right foot is mishapen and how buttressed her pastern area is. I find the foot paddles in a little bit. I put little blue markers to point where I see this.
C
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dressager:
slb- I talked to the vet a few hours ago. He claims these horses are different but will look at him tomorrow when he comes to the barn and then call my trainer (who agrees with you). The trainer is going to try to convince him that the horse needs to have a shorter toe.
Question- the vet said that a horse can’t have “more heel”… what does this mean? (I said the horse needed to have a shorter toe and more support/build on the heel)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What exactly is “these horses”??? Horses are horses, things vary as individuals and there are even small noted differences between breeds, but regardless, the foot needs to be balanced and although the “measurements” would be different, the general form shouldn’t vary. No horse should have deformed hooves!
Not sure what the vet ment…it is common practice to make the heels of a shoe longer then the actual ground surface of the foot to facilitate support under the boney column and therefore encourage the foot to grow back where it belongs. 
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
Also, wanted to show you all what would happen if we just took the heels down, and didn’t address the toe. Now you can see how long the toe is and how steep the angles are in relationship to how the form would be if the heels are the right height. This should help explain why we sometimes don’t see the flaws in some distorted feet.
Wanted to add…the begining angle on this front foot was about 60 degrees (better for a hind) and the foot trimmed to address the high/underrun heel now has a more appropriate angle of 50 degrees.
Please remember that these are simplistic in their attempts, and do not address the underlying structures or their orientation. But, serve to offer insight into what can happen when the foot is unbalanced.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
[This message was edited by slb on Mar. 03, 2003 at 01:51 AM.]
Saddith…looking forward to your pics 
Cassie…first, IMO, I would suggest that there is NO way that she needs surgery…the heel isn’t that high and there is no reason to cut tendons to accommodate the little bit that it needs to go to be balanced.
Check out the pics…not only is the club dished, but the other foot is slightly dished also. You are correct, all the feet are unbalanced.
The club foot is also beginning to “lean” to the side (check out the white lines on it compared to the vertical black lines - top left of pic). The heels are begining to shear. They have not actually done so as yet, but the heels do not match, which means that the bulbs will follow. In the center pic, the white lines drawn from the widest part of the foot to the toe and heel area indicate that the toe is even longer than the max. accepted 50:50 ratio. The red circle indicates that the frog has attached itself to (or grown over) the heels and needs to be trimmed back. The reason that his has happened is because of the contraction. The green lines indicate approx. where the frog should fill in and the heels should reside outside of that area. Luckily, you don’t seem to have underrun heels to deal with. This is a classic example of how trimming to match angles really doesn’t suffice…the angles are ok, but the feet are distorted.
If the toe is moved back, the dish will disappear. It is from the white line stretching as a result of the toe being too long. The horizontal green line indicates approx. where breakover should occur, the end of the toe should be slightly (approx. an inch or so) in front of that.
Note the overlay in the pic beside it where I took the shorter toe and placed it on the old foot…it already starts to look more round and will in turn help open up the heels and get rid of the contraction. From the other pics that I saw, you have a similar problem in all feet…long toe and contraction.
About the thrush…one of the most common causes of thrush is not wetness or uncleanliness, it is contraction. When the foot is contracted, the frog becomes pinched (depending on degree of problem). The circulation becomes compromised in the heel area, the foot becomes unhealthy in general…opening it up to opportunistic fungus and bacteria. The crevices become excessively deep and sometimes pinched. The natural “cleaning” mechanism of the frog and foot cannot work. Fungus and/or bacteria get trapped and maultiply. It becomes a never ending cycle and you can’t get rid of the thursh…no matter how clean the feet/stall are. You need health, circulation, air, and self-cleaning to beat thrush.
Good luck with your new farrier…please come back and post pics of Cassie’s “new” feet!
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
ACK! Robby, he didn’t lose lose the shoes, did he? My farrier’s four favorite words are “I found the shoe.” Actually, those are his four favorite job related words 
I would love to come play – but the only place I’ll be going until my vacation rolls over mid-year is to Foxhall and you know, we could try to convince you that you need to do Foxhall and Rolex back to back!
I agree that the photos are not exactly the same, but I can say that at least on the Feb 2003 ones, I’d still finger the lack of support under that boney column as the trigger for the flare up of the mechanical lameness. Like I’ve said before, I’m not a vet, or a farrier, but until someone can conclusively show me that the lack of support for the boney column does NOT cause or irritate a lot of injuries, I will remain convinced that it does.
This is a fascinating article on why the misalignment of P1/P2/P3 is such a bad thing:
http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/stovall2/phalangeallever.htm
slb – what do you think of what’s said in that one?
Libby
Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique
I decided to post the updated pics under this thread rather than the “Need donor legs” thread I started. Just a quick recap - redpony bowed his left front tendon in January. In looking for answers as to why this happened again, (third time, second time this leg), I posted some pictures I took in February and got some excellent feedback which resulted in a change of farriers. I think you can see the difference in the last two trims. His heel is starting to come more under his leg and he has more support. Let me know what you think.
OK, so I’m back…Bensmom’s question about cutting the toe to short was bugging me, so I wanted to address it.
Yes, you can cut the toe to short, that’s when you hit blood. So, now that I gave the simple answer, here’s the complex one. If you try to match pastern angles (which are not fixed), if you assume the toe as the point of breakover, or if you “dub” the toe back (like make a verticle cut across it) with no regard for the sole, then yes, the toe can be cut to short. What happens…changes in stride/gait, possible soreness/lameness, and possible tripping/stumbling.
How to avoid cutting the toe to short…
Trim to the live sole plane. Pay attention to the calous at the tip of the coffin bone. This area needs to be left intact. Removal in any way means weakening of the structure that supports the coffin bone. This is generally the location for the point of breakover. The hoof should maintain a natural 1/3 (front) 2/3 (rear) ratio from the widest part of the foot (just behind the apex of the frog. Cutting behind that ratio or cutting into that calous result in to short a toe. Dubbing vertically can result in cutting into that area. Leaving the toe, placing the shoe back to optimize breakover, and rasping the toe in a 15-20 degree upward angle from the toe calous provides a natural toe that appears short, but is correctly balanced and will blend into the point of breakover and the shoe.
So, Bensmom…did that help?
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
The dish…Martha, the reason that you are confused about the dish is two fold…one, because it is there (although slight - a result of the long toe and white line separation allowing the hoof capsule to distort away from the parallel connection with the coffin bone…similar to what happens in founder. It is simply a flare and should be treated as such…taken off. And, secondly, because the broken back axis results in an optical illusion that you can’t quite pinpoint. But, you can see it well in another foot noted in my comment pic below.
There is also a slight difference in toe angles from one foot to the other. However, I wouldn’t worry as much about that as I would all the other stuff. 
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
Cripes! I’m offline for 6 weeks while moving and I come back to find this thread still going! 
So the natural trimmer guy here has done my girl once already. For the first time in a long time I am happy with how she’s been trimmed. He feels very confident that the clubby foot will be fine and that I should get the surgery idea out of my head. I am getting that foot x-rayed - hopefully I can get the vet to do that before her trim next week.
The other big plus, she gets much more turnout here. At the other place she would get 5 hours max. Here she gets 15 hours Her feet have already spread out a LOT!
What a huge relief!!! I will post photos again after she gets trimmed a couple more times. I’m sure this thread will still be here!
Okay, the right one…
There…
…I think we’re pretty well caught up on all the posts. If we missed anyone, just hollar…not ignoring, just so many posts to keep up with.
Thanks for all your participation and thanks Martha for starting this…this is great!
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
John – you made my night! The Little Monster got reset this afternoon, and he was great, the farrier was happy, and he hung around to fix a couple of nails we weren’t happy with and gave me a backrub before he left to boot – made me really glad I didn’t beat my head against the wall literally on Friday when he did Ben
And Aimee, I’m glad that all this stuff is actually helpful to others – I have learned an amazing about here and am so grateful that folks are so willing to share their knowledge. At the moment, as my Paypal account seems to be on strike and I haven’t mailed a check off yet, I can’t post pics either, but I’ll see if I have the shoe photos on this machine and I’ve got your e-mail address – I’ll send 'em on.
Thanks guys!
Libby
Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique
Both Front…
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:
My farrier says the opposite – that a flare proves that that is the high side, since it is striking the ground first and flaring out to try to compensate for being too high.
So, you see, we’ve got a basic disagreement as to what we see and what it means. Just to recap – this is both of Ben’s hind feet and I believe that both the photos and the x-rays show high inside/low outside.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thought I should post an update on the farrier disagreement issue. (I just know you all were waiting breathlessly for this!)
After chatting with the farrier group at Foxhall and getting them to review my radiographs and photos when they had a slow moment, I was able to come home and report that a Famous Farrier that my guy had read articles by, had agreed that Ben was high on the inside.
Astonishing what a difference that made! And then, last Friday, he stands behind Ben and says “ok, so in the back he’s clearly high on the inside.”
I did not scream, I did not beat my head on the wall, I did not say “gee, are you now going to reimburse me for the set of radiographs I shot extra to check it after you argued with both me and the vet?!!” I just smiled sweetly and asked how he came to that conclusion.
He said, as if it were the most obvious thing in the world “well, you can SEE it.”
Arrgghhhh!!! I’ve been saying this for three months – the vet has said it as well. The vet and I have been going nuts trying to figure out if he sees something we don’t, but no, we were right all along and now the farrier is on board as well.
Thank goodness! Finally!
So, now I just have to hope we can keep it this way!
Libby
Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique
slb - Thank you so much!!! You have no idea how much better this makes me feel. Everything that you said is what I’ve been feeling in my gut, but just don’t have the knowledge to back up (does that make any sense?).
I kept telling him I thought the toe was too long, but he kept telling me that it needed to be longer to correct the club foot. ACK! I knew that wasn’t right, but what do I know? And this guy really does do an amazing job shoeing the dressage horses here. I guess trims aren’t worth his time 
I will keep the angry rant to myself right now…
Even though I haven’t had radiographs done ($$$$$), the vets are sick of looking at Cassie’s feet 
Every single time one of them is at the barn for anything else, I drag them into her stall. Even they say she isn’t a surgery candidate, but of course I know how little time is spent on hooves in vet school - and of course I’ve just been super paranoid about her feet, too.
I’ve already decided to make a photographic diary webpage to track her progress. I had wanted to do one of her training, but I think this will be a much more interesting subject!
JJ< 8 YO QH , used solely for trail/goofing off.
Told the farrier to rocker the front toes, got this instead. His legs are a mighty fine mess from hell, heels are crushed and underrun—now I’m looking at squared forehooves, too. Oh Goody.
If he was yours, what would you do? This is the BEFORE Picture
“Shoot me now! Shoot me now!”
Bugs Bunny
Thanks for the speedy reply martha. I had also thought that the frog was to come into contact with the ground to “pump blood” into the hoof area. But this one book, the Cherry Hill Maximum Hoof Power, states that is a myth. Increased activity pumps blood from the heart through the limbs. The frog is not a second heart or so this book claims. The book furhter states “It is not necessary or desirable for the frog to bear weight when the horse stands on level ground.” pp48. ALso the book said the “short walls casuses the sole to bear weight.” and that “the (hoof) wall can wear so excessivly (when barefoot) that the horse is walking on his soles. This often results in sole bruises and sole abcesses.” pp 18.
So since the farrier had me use Venice Turpentine on my horses soles because they were so thin, I was assuming, that after reading this, my horse with thin soles, wet weather, low heels and short to no hoof wall leaving the frog exposed to bear weight, I was doing my horse more harm than good by leaving shoes off his hind feet.
But I am hesitant to trust just one book to be an authority on this subject which is why I posted here, seems some farriers are following this thread.
I’ll read the thread to learn more about the low heel, long toe issue. thanks but still windering about the frog issue.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bensmom:
slb – This is turning out to be a nightmare of traditional thinking vs. what science can show us. Argghhhh. Would you ask your hubby why farriers are taught as an absolute that the side of the foot that lands first is the higher side of the foot. This would be true on an absolutely perfect otherwise foot, but the bones of the leg can affect what goes on below when the horse moves – i.e. a horse that has crooked legs could still land on the lower side of the hoof first in motion, as Ben does. This is where we are having a problem. <sigh><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bensmom…I hear you frustration
Hubby is studying the indside of his eyelids right now…but I can hazzard a couple of guesses. First, I would say that many farriers are taught the basics and encouraged to learn corrective/therapeutic applications on their own. I think some of this comes from a previous apprenticeship/master system. Second, I would have to say that many farriers might be taught some basic corrective work, but of the hundreds of horses they see in their working life, the majority don’t need corrective work, so it becomes obscure when they don’t practice it.
Then there is MNSHO…
I think that as a culture advances…it sometimes fails us in what we “intuitively” understand. For example, when I was a kid all our friends/neighbors worked on their own cars (except for the really rich ones). The technology allowed it, and the men/boys were expected to learn some info in classes like shop and also worked with their dads…there was time to spend doing it…for some it was a hobby. But, as we advance, the hobby fades…or becomes to high tech for the average backyard mechanic, the cars become to high tech to work on with just a screw driver and wrench. And, time is well spend doing other things. Society looks to the guys in white shirts as role models for young men…not those that have mechanical minds and get their finger nails greasy. Even in my rural area, the mechanically minded boys are frowned upon…cars take up too much of their time…they are “loosers” going nowhere. But in reality, the skills that they learn are important…thinking out of the box, problem solving, innovation…many of these things have become lost to us…and our farriers…we rely on a handful of well paid people to cover it. The problem that I see is that many farriers don’t have the mechanical mindset to understand forces. Many lack the artistic skills to understand symetry. They simply trim and apply shoes the way the guy before them did…right or wrong, the horse is sound, it must be ok. Many have only one standard shoe and method that they use…they don’t vary from the basics that they were taught in school. They just don’t have the inclination to think for themselves…most of our society has come to this…it is just to easy to let a few others do it for us.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
Okay, I’m gonna add my picts to this and bump it back to the top 
. Please comment, especially if you can tell me what those ridges are on his back hooves. They have appeared at two separate times over the winter, both after sun dried everything out and then a sudden deluge brought back tons of mud and muck. They started at the coronary band, feeling like little rubbery cuticles and then grew down into ridges. He has not been unsound because of them.
This is about halfway through these shoes and I think his feet normally look better than this.
Also, please ignore the little bit of yuck in his feet. I did full set in the crossties but he was freaking out at the flash. I turned it off and the picts didn’t turn out so back out for another try by the pasture with no hoofpick…oops!
Thanks for all the info slb!
So underrun heels are long heels that have, well the wrong angle, shooting forward under the hoof and having a smaller angle than healthy heels which may distance wise be shorter in legnth, but has a more open angle. ( ie open anlge like 45 degrees, smaller angle is like 35 degrees)
Lots to think about. I figured that one book doesn’t have all the answers. In my case I just figured that there should be more hoof wall supporting the heel area than there is now, seems the frog and bulbs of the heel hold this horse up more than the hoof wall, but I’ll need to post good picts to get more info here. And I’ll talk to my farrier and see what he thinks when he comes in two weeks.
I guess what got me going was this horse has never been barerfoot in the 1 1/2 yrs I have had him nor in the 3 years his previous owner had him. So since it was wet soft going when we pulled the hind shoes I was happy to see his hooves stay intact. No tearing at the edges or anything. But now, some time after the second trim he’s lost a fair sized chunk of hoof wall back near his heels. That got me worrying and looking closer. His hind feet are not perfectly flat, but they do not appear to be cupped enough, they tend more towards the falt end of the scale. And spring is coming, soft wet ground, seems to be ripe for stone bruises.
I agree that the frog should probablly contact the ground to maintain health, but to the degree that it contacts and carries weight is what I question. I mean even in a shod horse in soft or deep or wet ground the frog comes into contact with the ground, you can see it in the hoof print left behind.
Isn’t a healthy sole cupped shapped a bit? Not flat? So in a sole like that the outer edges would bear mroe weight than the inner edges right? A flat sole would bear weight equally across all surfaces. My horses sole flexed under finger pressure at the farrier visit whne the farrier emntioned the Venice Turpentine idea. That is too much movement? A thins Sole?
I am aware of folks studying wild horses for more info on how we should shoe our own animals but am skepticle of how much info we can draw from these horse that live a life radically different from my horses. And really if my horse were wild, he’d be dead long before now. Natural selection would favor sound animals, kill off the weak and unsound. Man on the other hand goes around and actually BREEDS unsound animals. Sheesh, then nutbars like myself try to keep them sound as best we can.
[This message was edited by NRB on Mar. 02, 2003 at 11:14 PM.]
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