Post your Feet Pictures! (AKA: Good Hoof Stuff Every Horse Owner Should Know!)

[Bensmom]

Dune – thanks for your experience – this time we didn’t run the pics through the program, but just used the radiographs and the vet’s eye to determine how much to shorten the toe. We shot the pics with the shoes on, so that gave us a really good idea as to where the bones are in relation to his shoe.

And my experience with the equi-pak has been the same as yours. His sole is actually in better shape, and his frog, which was very desiccated, is actually looking like that of a normal horse! He has also grown a thicker sole, I would imagine because some of the pressure from the ground has been transferred up to the foot. His sole is so concave on the club foot, that without the pour, neither his frog nor his sole would ever get any ground pressure. I pour him everytime and will continue as long as it isn’t harmful to him.

Or until I go broke, which is a possibility!

Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique

[slb]

Martha…I think that now we have a handle on “good feet”, its time to discuss the use of shoes. Your post has raised an issue that I find interesting, yet IMO, a misconception.

Here is the way I see it: Shoes are devices…tools…like a bandaid or cast for humans. They unto themselves provide no therapeutic nature to healing. No matter what the shoe or how it is applied, if the underlying trim is not correct in balance in alignment, then the shoe affords nothing in the way of aid. Additionally, if the trim is correct, then the second step is that the shoe is applied correctly to afford a good base of support (full in the heel, wide web), and enhance breakover (rolled/rockered toe, sometimes set back). Applied properly, shoes will encourage proper direction of new growth, but the underlying trim is more far more important in that aspect.

In short, if the hoof is fairly structurally sound, generally removing the shoe should benefit growth, rather than hinder it. If the foot changes shape, then the trim is at fault…not “the foot needs a shoe”.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

Bensmom…just looked as Buzz’s solar views. Ya know…I’m getting old and feeble minded (and lazy)…this has been a long lived thread. Could you refresh my memory about why Buzz is in wedge bars? These views look excellent. I’ll have to look back at his other pics and x-rays to get some more ideas.

This is starting to get confusing…too many horses to keep straight.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[rhymeswithfizz]

Just wanted to pipe up from my corner to THANK everyone for participating in this thread… I am learning a lot!

I will take some pictures of my mare’s feet – she is a 13 yo TB, and has been barefoot for about 8 years. Her feet look about as perfect as any feet I have seen, at least in front. I think she has a bit TOO much heel in back… but I’ll let y’all be the judges. Stay tuned for pictures!

where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?

[Bensmom]

Martha! You are a genius! (I think I shrunk Ben’s feet pics a tiny bit at home – I don’t have that software on this computer, but you fixed it!)

Oh-kay, people! We can catch the sunniflax thread. You’ve got two new sets of pics.

Discuss.

Libby (thanks guys, this is great stuff!)

[slb]

OK…let’s get this show on the road

Bensmom…is the medial lateral balance off on Bear or is it just the pic…that’s the foot when viewed from the front…is the hairline parallel to the ground or does it tilt?

Opps…sorry got sidetracked and took a long time to post…betsyk posted the same question.

[mcmIV]

Well, I think people are afraid of critiques, because after all, we have control over our horses shoeing and if the feet are crappy, then its “our fault”. Of course, it’s never to late to open your eyes to problems!

Or, people have average looking feet and don’t expect a response.

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **

[Bensmom]

HS – the quick set Equi stuff is what we used to build Ben up on the outside to balance the M/L on his hinds. I’m glad that I’m not the only one that thinks he’ll be sore if we drop him on the outside! We are talking about shooting an anterior view to see if we have p1/p2/p3 tilt on those hind feet – sorta just a quickie to prove I’m right on that issue.

Now that we know you aren’t frozen, HS, go back and take a look at the pics we posted of Bear, which is the first one we’d be loading on that trailer to bring up if we implemented your plan.

I’ll write up what we found in the Navicular Bursogram next, but the upshot of it is that his films don’t look so good and proper shoeing is where we are going first to fix it.

This is cool – Martha you did good with this topic!

Libby (who still thinks we ought to start an obsessed with hoof balance clique)

[HossShoer]

Bensmom, I am froze up.
If Bear did make it up here, I’d probably break him down from the weight of the blankets and all the calks and borium on his shoes to keep him from falling down on all the GD ice we have around here.
Regards John

[Hilary]

and finally, the left hind…

[Bensmom]

Yay, Martha! Unfortunately, all you win is the right to comment first on the x-rays!

Ok, while you guys are meditating on Buzz’s x-rays, I’ve got another problem. A big one.

You know how pleased I’ve been with the original adjustment to Ben’s hind feet, and how fixing that gave me a new horse? (I’ve told the story ad naseum now – its pretty bad when your own stories bore you )

Anyway, he’s broken again.

He had almost a week off due to different reasons, and after seeing the chiro yesterday, I actually get to ride. We are three weeks into this reset, and I don’t know that I’ve ridden him but a couple of times since he was last done – I have a friend that has moved back home, and she has been helping me to get both boys worked, so I’ve not sat on him but once or twice myself, but I have noticed that since his return to work, he’s been tripping. A lot.

So, back to yesterday. He was pissy. Really bad when I asked him to actually work and carry himself. Now, Monica rides well, and I don’t think she’d let him get away with this crap, but she hadn’t ridden him since he was hoof balanced, and what I had yesterday was at least better than what he used to be, so maybe she just didn’t realize how bad he was when she was last on him.

I asked for canter last night and immediately had a sick feeling. He can’t canter. And I mean CAN’T. When I insisted, he bucked and kicked out. I knew in my heart what was wrong, but I worked a bit more, found a couple of good canter strides and then quit.

My trainer called as I hacked back to the barn, and someone brought me the phone – I told her about my ride and we decided that although the vet wanted me to give it one more week before he did a lesson, that I’d bring him for her to take a look.

He still couldn’t canter to the right, and only a little to the left. She rode him, and I was HORRIFIED by what I saw. He is moving like he waddles. Terribly wide behind.

Put him on the concrete, got out the pics and began to poke around. Unless I am terribly mistaken my farrier has either allowed his feet to go back “natural” or he has started lowering the outsides instead of the insides of his hind feet.

Amazing that it could make such a difference, isn’t it? We are right back where I was in the Fall of 2001. I wanted to cry as I sat there and watched my beautiful boy waddle in trot, and desperately try to canter. My trainer didn’t even get frustrated with him – she said it is clear that he just can’t do it.

The vet is a sweetheart – he saw my number on the caller i.d. on his cell phone and called me right back around 8 or so – he is going to do a lameness evaluation behind and check stifles and hocks to make sure there isn’t something else going on, and perhaps shoot x-rays of Ben’s back feet. We need to re-shoot that anterior view of Buzz’s right hind anyway.

It looks as if Ben’s angle has also dropped behind, toes too long and medial lateral is unbalanced again. I love my farrier, but I wished he really believed me. Unforutnately, he wasn’t my farrier when we first found the problem and started making the change, so he doesn’t know just how bad Ben is as his old self.

At least we think we found the source of the tripping, though. He’s pulling himself along on his forehand since he can’t step through and carry himself behind, and that is making him trip.

I want the new, improved Ben back!! I was so afraid that there was something wrong with his annular ligament, but I was pretty sure all along that the imbalance behind was back.

Feet sure are complicated!

Libby (I’ll be sure to let you guys know what happens!)

Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique

[Ishi]

Here is his right front:

Love means attention, which means looking after the things we love. We call this stable management.
- George H. Morris
http://community.webshots.com/user/flycak

[slb]

OK kids…here is a link for all the naysayers, nonbievers, and skeptics. This is the most current research released from U of Michigan Foot Studies Lab. I recommend that everyone…even if your horse is sound…read this

http://cvm.msu.edu/news/press/phytrim.htm

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

Oh duh…sorry Dressager…I’m so used to my own barefoot horses…sometimes I write before I think. You’re right, you can’t rasp with shoes on.

Your questions aren’t odd and you raise another good subject - the white line. The white line sets just inside the hoof wall (when looking at a solar view). It is the external extention of the lamina that bonds the hoof wall to the coffin bone. The very essence of what holds the foot together. That means that it is important that it be a solid, healthy connection. A healthy WL is thin, dense, evenly formed (of even thickness), and parallels the hoof wall. There shouldn’t be any wavyness to the line, any stretching, any holes or crumbling to it, and it shouldn’t be black or dark in color.

When a toe dishes, I can tell you that the white line stretches without even seeing it. It is just the laws of physics. This is a very good indicator (landmark) for determining balance. When uneven forces are applied, the attachment is strained and streches. This is apparent in flares of all sorts. In a dished toe, the stretching goes from the ground up to the point where the dish begins. The top part of the foot is generally trying to grow in a “natural” or optimal direction for that foot (parallel to the coffin bone), but when it reaches a certain point it starts turning out away from its parallel growth to accommodate the long toe.

This long toe also leverages the foot backward and forces the horse to exert unnatural forces on the rear of the hoof. So, even if the horse should have heel pain from contraction, navicular, or other problems, you may never know because the horse can’t do the normal thing to indicate heel pain…relieve the pressure by weighting its toes instead…it is forced to weight its heels and in addition, exert unusual forces on the tendons (often the underlying forces behind bows.

Additionally, the fact that the white line is damaged also means that the attachment to the coffin bone is weak…thus the whole hoof is weak setting it up for problems. It also means that oppotunistic bacteria and fungus, like White Line Disease (WLD), are open for invitation. This is the exact same mechanism that occurs in the foundered foot that grows a “slipper” toe look. The battle that is waged to prevent the coffin bone from rotating or sinking is grounded on regaining a stong WL attachment as soon as possible.

I have attached a pic of stretched WL. Note the wide dark area that goes from the hoof wall to the white colored sole area. This is the streched white line. This particular foot also had a dish from growing long toes.

Hope this helps…

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Bensmom]

Hey guys, we can catch the sunniflax thread!! Especially once you get a look at the problem I’m gonna bring you pics of tomorrow . . .

But, back to my beast. Thanks for the compliments on his feet, and you may be sorry you asked, as this is one of my favorite subjects, but slb asked:

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> From the sounds of it and what I see in these pics…you must have seen great improvement in a very short time? I would like to hear what you have seen and what has happened from this trim. Has his gait changed? Has his behavior/attitude changed? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the abbreviated version <g> In Fall 2001, I’m tired of this horse not holding an adjustment behind. He has always worn his feet more on the outsides of the hinds, and my farrier had been doing extended heels or trailers and it hadn’t fixed it. So, he decides to allow the feet to “be themselves” and bam, I have a real pain problem in his hips. Chiro every four weeks and acupuncture once a week keeps him in work, but he’s bucking really badly at the canter.

Make vet appt for soundness check, have both trusted vets present. Basically do throrough clinical exam on hind end. Told that I have a training problem and to teach the horse not to buck. Well, I knew better, so I made a deal. If I could be the first client to get the horse computer balanced, and could do the hinds, I would spend a month spanking him for bucking.

So, next reset, we shoot the x-rays, and hang out at the clinic to see what we’ve got. Vet offers apology to owner as x-rays showed a very serious “tilt” to hind feet, as well as very broken back axis. Hind feet get fixed with much shorter toe, larger shoe and “lifts” on outsides of feet and YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE the difference in this horse. Amazingly, he improves by leaps and bounds in dressage, he holds adjustments, his canter becomes nice, and most important, he ceases kicking me when I touch his hips!

This horse has been a farrier’s nightmare from the get go. I ended up with a young guy that was just getting started, and for five years, he tried really hard on Ben. Ben’s feet are too small, and he has a club foot (left fore) is short backed and long legged. He has an incredibly thin sole and thin hoof wall. Horrid feet.

So, for five years the same farrier did him with varying success, but staying mostly sound. In the middle of last year, I switched, not because my guy wasn’t doing a good job (but it wasn’t great) but because he just quit caring – I’ll put up with a lot in somebody if they are really trying.

New farrier has worked miracles. Ben has moved from a 00 in the club foot to a 1, from a 0 in the rf to a 1 and to 1s behind as well. We hoof balanced him all around in November of last year to check and see where the hinds were, and to go ahead and look at the fronts. Fronts found way LT/LH in the rf and a little too steep in the left front.

Last reset, when those pics were taken both fronts were at 3 inches of toe and at about 53 degrees.

Matched feet. I thought it couldn’t be done. At 10 years old you aren’t supposed to be able to “fix” a club foot. But, with both feet trimmed to match the angle of the coffin bone, they are pretty much the same.

Cool, huh? He is an awesome mover now, and even more fun to ride. Now if we could just fix the annular ligament as easily Actually we think the angle of the rf had something to do with the injury and hope that now that is fixed the ligament will stay good.

And I’ll go on to the underrun heels horse first thing in the morning with some questions – slb you and John have made me feel much better allready – the horse in question belongs to a delightful young friend of mine and he has been slightly lame for THREE YEARS.

I finally got permission to start the reinvestigation into why today and spent a long time with their vet (we haven’t done any looking at him for about 18 months) When we pulled his bell boots off and I saw his feet, I was FURIOUS. A master farrier does him, and I have to tell you that when I saw how bad his feet looked, I was very angry that a chronically lame horse has been given no more attention than that.

My campaign is now to fix this horse’s feet, and hopefully to work with the vet to find out why he is lame and to develop a management plan. This horse is only 13 – can you guys help me figure this one out?

I’ll take pics tomorrow and post details . . .

Thanks,

Libby

[mcmIV]

HS -

“I still think that if Ben could go just a few days barefoot in the sand to let those burps in his coronet band straighten out,then trim him and hot shoe him would help.”

In a general way, I fully understand and agree that barefeet solves many problems.

But can you more specifically explain why, physiologically, pulling shoes for even a short time “straightens out the bumps” in a coronet band?

What actually happens to cause those bumps, and what happens to fix them… I believe Java had/has similar coronet-burps.

Libby - all will work out… at least Ben is under the care of a foot fanatic that will strive to help him instead of someone else who would “work him through it” despite discomfort. I know it will come together for you!

Hey I like that - Foot Fanatic… we could make that our clique name too, just to be wishywashy!

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **

[slb]

Hilary,
Cracks are generally from imbalances or lever action from too long a toe or flares (same thing). However, I am not as familiar with cracks like this that grow down from the coronary…generally that is more indicative of coronary band injury resulting in poor horn quality in that area.

Yes, years of imbalanced feet can/will eventually show up as lameness or upper body problems. I’m guessing that even though it is evident that an injury caused his current upper body alignment problems, that if his feet were correctly balanced and aligned, that you wouldn’t need as much realignment work done on his upper body.

How often are his feet done? It seems from your description that he may grow excess toe? Perhaps you could do a little rasping in between farrier visits to keep him trimmed back. Also, if he is growing toe and no heel, then there could be other issues besides the imbalances.

His heels look a little underrun and it looks like the M/L balance is off. I hate to ask this from pics, but does he have “bumps” in a couple of places around the top of the coronary band…indicative of ring bone?

Also, he has more than cracks and chips, he has separation of the hoof wall…this could indicate other problems such as white line disease, or poor horn quality.

[MyShadeOfPink]

I’ll play… This was when she had no back shoes… we moved to more rocky property, and she now has front shoes and pads and back shoes

Ignore the message… was showing a friend the difference in my mare’sf eet since i started using rainmaker

::Jennie::
“Nothing of me is original. I am the combined effort of everybody I’ve ever known.”-Invisible Monsters

[HossShoer]

Bensmom, tell ya what, I’ll send ya down a wack of money and you follow that vet and lameness expert around and buy up all them poor footed,underrun heals, never gonna save 'em horses, for cash, just ahead of the meat guy.(See if ya can get a few of them thar navicular ones as well.) when you get a trailler load or my money runs out, I’ll slip down and pick them up.
What a great business we are in. Experts creating opportunities every time ya turn around.
Ya all know what a expert is???
An “ex” is a has been, and a “pert” is a squirt under pressure.
Is the heat too much down there or what???
Regards John

[Bensmom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So, without words, expecting that an optimal foot would be “straight” along these lines, can you see how imbalanced the feet are? Can you see the problems that the trim is creating?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think so. You are absolutely right that we thought the flares were distortion from the camera, and they aren’t, they are real. I hunkered down in front of his rear feet last night (I really love my horse – he didn’t squish me!) and looked, and they both flare on the outside.

HS said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Libby, I just feel so bad for Ben’s recent regression. Sure looks like “busy farrier foot” to me.
Take a deep breath and just get on his case to get back to what ya had goin that worked so well. You know this horse inside out and ya care a whole lot about his well being.
What if you offered to pay your farrier on a hourly basis? Just so he can take the time in his mind to get around the problem, instead of gotta get to the next place to make the $$$$ for that truck/mortgage/whatever payment.
I thought he was into goin the extra on this pony.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John, this where I’m so frustrated. I don’t think it is a case of him being in a hurry with Ben. He won’t even shoe another horse, even one of mine on the afternoon that he’s done – he feels he can’t concentrate and do a good job if he does that. The problem is more that we have a fundamental disagreement as to how the foot works and what it is doing biomechanically.

For example. He says the flares mentioned above, which are on the outside (lateral) of his hind feet, show that the horse is high outside. He also insists that because the horse lands high outside when he walks that he is higher on the outside hoof wall.

That is just simply not always true. The radiographs taken yesterday show that this horse is, no question about it, high on the inside of both hind feet, the right worse than the left.

http://community.webshots.com/album/64343045nhTrXP

The first four pictures in that album are Buzz, retakes of what we did on Monday, and then the other four are Ben’s.

To give him a massive amount of credit, my farrier came out last night at 5:30 and did what I requested, though he was damn unhappy about it, and made me end up doubting myself. In fact, Ben is a little sore on his left hind, so we may have trimmed him a tad bit short.

A bit more info-- the vet could not find any indication of hind end lameness – i.e. nothing hocks, stifles, etc. He was sound, but not tracking up when we jogged him on the straightaway. He wasn’t back sore, and wasn’t sore anywhere else that we could find. When we lunged him, his balance was so bad that even the vet said he’d think an EPM horse if we hadn’t seen that there were no other typical symptoms.

So, the farrier made the changes and immediately, the horse strode off in the barn aisle, overtracking by a good bit. He was much better to ride – not perfect, but much much much better. I could sit his trot, and he could canter. It wasn’t his best canter, but it felt more like an unfit horse (which he is) than a horse that physically could not do the work.

So, where does that leave me? With a much better balanced beast and an unhappy farrier. And doing more research into biomechanics, so I hopefully will be able to convince him that I’m right.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Libby - all will work out… at least Ben is under the care of a foot fanatic that will strive to help him instead of someone else who would “work him through it” despite discomfort. I know it will come together for you! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Martha and everyone, thank you for saying such nice things. I was feeling by the end of this ordeal yesterday as if I were too picky and considered a bit stupid because I’d spend this kind of time and $ to get him right, 'cause after all, he’s only a horse, right? Plenty more where he came from . . .

But then, I rode him with his feet redone and it made me cry. When he’s balanced behind, his movement is like magic, and dressage is actually fun.

It seems to me that the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. He moves great and is less sore when the hind feet are done like this, so why does my farrier refuse to believe?

It is especially frustrating, because in all other respects, he is fabulous. Likes to learn, read and research and is a terrific machinist. For the most part, he’s always done what I asked, or explained to me why it can’t be done. He’s taught me to pull shoes and to nail my own on in an emergency, so I can’t figure out why we are at such loggerheads over this issue.

John, am I running into conventional wisdom problems? Is there an absolute somewhere that says if the horse lands outside first, then that is the high side of the foot? If so, then this horse is definitely weird!

Thanks for the input and the support . .

Libby (who has been DREAMING about horse feet)

Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique