Post your Feet Pictures! (AKA: Good Hoof Stuff Every Horse Owner Should Know!)

Nope, I’m just speechless!

I’m reading this thread regularly, and LEARNING! I know I can’t keep up with you guys, so I’m just absorbing. It’s great, really! Keep it going!

I could post pics of my guys’ feet, but both are pretty boring compared to some of the feet here. I just have a barefoot draft cross with a severe tendency to thrush and quarter flares, and a TB with typical TB feet that don’t seem to grow, which makes it difficult to do anything to her feet. We did grow out a REALLY bad square-toe trim when I first got her - it made her move like a jackhammer…

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

You know what’s weird? The hairline on the back feet looks about even, but when you measure hoof wall length to the ground on the inside and outside (I’ll try to scan a pic that shows how the Metron program measures this) he is pretty uneven. I don’t see how that is possible, though I will say that that would explain how this was so hard to catch the first time. I mean, two vets and my farrier missed how unbalanced he was behind.

My farrier says this morning that he hasn’t changed anything that he’s aware of, but I think Ben is also too long toed behind and his angle is too low.

So far, I haven’t cried yet, but I’m still thinking about it. I did call in sick to work so that I can take them to the clinic. We’ll see what we find . . .

Libby

Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique

Here is a comparison of Java’s feet so you can see how they have improved in just 6 weeks…left side original, right side newest.

Note the hairline has straightened out. Also, the hoof growth has changed angles and is starting to look much improved.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

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Ok well I got my feet pics now… I put them all on my webshots page for easier viewing…Some of them aren’t the best shots but i tried to do my best and got front, side, and solar views of each foot. Her hind feet are underun but they are actually better than they used to be. But just wondering what your opionions on everything are…also the new farrier has only done her feet once so far and already put on a bigger shoe.
Addie feet pics

~Nicole~

Bensmom…have you tried putting him on 2-3 oz of flax meal or the equivilant in seed per day? I had a horse with all sorts of allergies…not runny nose or sneezing, but itching, oozing sores stuff. It all cleared up in a couple of weeks with no recurrance just from providing the missing essential fatty acids in the flax.

Although rotation in the rear is not as common as in the front, it is not rare either.

WOW…HH…was someone paying to have a farrier trim this horse? Or was this a case of hoof neglect? Actually, I have seen worse when a “farrier” was attending. Do you think he could have been a good swimmer with those flares…he probably could have walked on water, never mind swimming!

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Hmm… we had a mare diagnosed navicular. As a 5 year old she was schooling 4’ courses and competing on the A circuit and as a 6 year old she was dead lame.

Hindsight is 20/20, right?

Well… some stupid vet called it “pedalostitis”, give her isoxoprin.

She remained lame for months, maybe years before we met our vet of today. He found that chiropractically she had a real twisty pelvis and of course that could blamed on being jumped hard as a youngster.

On top of that she had underrun heels, really bad ones.

After more years of nerve blocks, lameness exams, supplements and meds, she was finally diagnosed with navicular syndrome. Clean xrays, but all the symptoms were met.

Maybe if we had been more knowledgeable and had a better farrier it could have been fixed while she was still young!

Shes now like 20, and retired on a farm with 2 sheep and 4 goats and a lot of chickens. She’s pretty happy.

We had her nerved at least once. She was a beginner lesson horse, and leased to many a small pony-clubber. The nerving really seemed to help alleviate some of her ouchies.

I think navicular is mostly manageable and maybe even reversable - it is a “syndrome” not an “end”. I hope Bear is ok. :confused:

martha

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **

Up early this morning, getting ready to go meet the farrier <VBG> got a new digital camera last night. So I will have a go of it today. We have just changed farriers back to the one I used for 5+ years with much happiness, this will be the first time he has done some of these horses, and some of them he did before for me. Last guy was good… but not consistent. Much like Ben’s mom is suffering with. The stress of knowing there’s a problem and knowing you have to have a confrontation about it had become too much for us and so we have made this change back. Will try to do some before and afters, I am really excited about this!

(arrghhh, I managed to lose my whole reply!)

The answer to fixing it as far as $$ is concerned is somewhere in between? He isn’t going to continue trying to be a showhorse, but they would like to get him sound and comfortable enough for the older daughter to teach a few lessons on and to perhaps be 1/2 leased to someone to do small local stuff. He will remain in my care, though, since Buzz irritates every other horse he’s been out with until they beat him up. Bear is his best friend. (See pic below)

We are supposed to take him Monday for another procedure that involves injecting dye to get a better handle on exactly what’s wrong with him. The vet wants to meditate on the shoeing changes, but you can bet there will be some – he wasn’t happy and says the left foot is worse with the heels underrun. He shot the x-rays of that foot as well, just to see how bad the axis is.

The lameness is pretty slight – not even lame enough for the vet to block yesterday, so the vet thinks that with good management, he can continue to have a useful life.

So, since John wanted me to throw a few navicular horses on the trailer with the underrun heels, there must be a good way to fix horses like this – so what would you do?

Also what do y’all think of Buzz’s wedge shoes - the design of which is to encourage the heel to grow down enough that the wedge would be no longer necessary. You can see 'em a little from the side, and I’ll try to get solar views today if the rain stops.

Thanks!

Libby

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Libby, has anyone checked to see if this horse is sore in the upper body…specifically the should, hip, or back area? IMO, this crushing of the heels that you see, is typical of what happens when wedges are improperly applied. I also think that wedges should be for theraputic application only…that would mean short term to help the foot correct itself, but any horse that needs them long term needs their feet evaluated or a new farrier.

Can you watch how he walks…does he land toe or heel first, or does he land flat. Also, does he fully weight his heels when he lands/stands? Not sure you can spot this.

I would say you are right…reducing concussion would be the first thing. Either some sort of pad, or rubber shoes with metal cores.

If he is in full pads, did anyone evaluate for problems like thrush, deep seated thursh, or white line disease? IMO, vets rarely look at the full spectrum of things that might be wrong with the feet.

If he has DJD in the coffin bone, then I wonder if he has an alignment problem…apart from the obvious…broken axis maybe? Or, what is the spacial alignment of the coffin bone? Does is sit tilted up or down, or is it more ground parallel? Also, did anyone inspect the digital cushion for atrophy? This could also be one of his problems.

Wow…it sounds like this poor guy needs a lot of help

Left rear long pastern! I win!

How on earth did that get in the picture?

martha

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

**Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won’t bother you for weeks. **

Come on HS…I want in on this too…you can’t get all the good deals

LF Head On

“Don’t mince words, don’t be evasive
Speak your mind, be persuasive”
Madonna

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Hi Dune…glad you could join the discussion…you have posed a good question.

This is, I believe, an “average” size horse. You are correct about NB principles indicating approx. 1 1/4" from apex of frog to breakover. However, the confusion lies in where the point of breakover is. It is not at the end of the toe…at the wall…but back under the toe at a callused area that lies just in front of the tip of the coffin bone. I have drawn a line on the “good foot” to indicate where that might fall on this foot…doesn’t mean that I am accurate as I would need x-rays to be so, but you can see the callus, therefore I am guessing that this would be the point of breakover for this horse. In a mustang, or a barefoot horse that gets adequate movement, the toe will wear a “rocker” upward from the ground at about a 15-20 degree angle…thus enhancing breakover. For those who don’t know…this is what we are trying to emulate by rockering the toe, or applying an NB shoe…that is part of why proper application of these shoes is so successful. It is imperative to get the point of breakover back under the foot where it belongs…instead of out at the end of the toe where it generally is…in order to facilitate returning the foot to a more optimal form.

If I had of known there was going to be a test…I would have studied

PS…just thought also, that this is a trim in progress…maybe the toe needs some shortening…although it doesn’t seem that way.

Just thought…I should also add my disclaimer in case you didn’t see it in the earlier posts…I am not a farrier or trimmer…I have never applied NB or anyone else’s principles.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[This message was edited by slb on Feb. 14, 2003 at 10:06 PM.]

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Hilary-
I have been a customer of Equi-pak more times that I would like to admit…can you say expensive?! My experience was that the sole was actually in better shape than without it after a shoeing. Since it “seals” the hoof, it’s not like using a regular pad and when you remove it, you don’t have the thrushy, soft foot problem. Hope that helps!

Nah, we haven’t had that many responses because I’ve bored them all to sleep! I have that effect on people in person too as soon as I start talking about hoof balance, you can see their eyes glaze over

slb said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This is where picture assessments fail us…really need to be there to make these types of recommendations. I think you are doing alright Libby…just follow your instincts and get good feet on him in shoes and then I bet he might be able to go barefoot…at least some of the time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks! He is getting done around 11 today, and the owner’s mother has not been able to reach the vet or the farrier, so we don’t know what they’ve been able to convince the farrier to try. I know that this farrier hates the KB shoe the vet wants and has thus far refused to pour any horse, so I have a feeling what I want done with him won’t be the result! But, we’ll see – he has been shoeing for years, and probably has a trick or two up his sleeve, so wait and see is about all we can do at this point.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I agree…that is why it is so wrong for the “all horses can be barefoot” idea. If they were in the wild and natural selection provided their feet, yes…then this works. But, human intervention in breeding, management, and foot care presents some issues that simply can’t be addressed barefoot. However, I didn’t really see where Buzz was “weak” in his pasterns…just a little long…but, I’ve seen worse. You do raise a good issue though…about the support being under the boney column. The problem is, the foot is often taken or allowed to get too far forward…especially if the heels are underrun and/or toes are too long. Addressing the issue of alignment is just as important as addressing proper hoof form…although generally, alignment follows form.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If Buzzy were in the wild, he probably would have been coyote dinner when he bowed, but then again, maybe not – he is a real fighter that one. (I just wish he didn’t want to pick on me sometimes ) His alignment was so bad when I bought him that he had NO support under the boney column or even close to it. Which is why I think the right leg has the djd in the fetlock joint – the concussive forces of racing along with the simple physics of having to rotate the joint from too far down in back, from no support and too far over, from too long toes. That leg is relatively straight, though and so there is just damage to that joint. The left leg had about the same turnout as Slew’s, and with no support, too long toe and the crooked leg, he hit a soft spot in the track, and Riiiiiiip went the tendon. Really sad. My farrier claims that I’ve asked for him to have two club feet, but with the bar shoes and now the wedge on the bar lifting the angle and leaving room for the heel to grow, he is going the best he’s ever gone, and fingers crossed, so far, he’s been sound. My #1 goal with him is to keep the inflammation out of his fetlock joint, and controlling the rotational forces on it seemed like a good place to start.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> All I can tell you is that my husband does this all the time. Every time I have him look at these pics, he just keeps saying “cut the heels down, get them back where they belong”. I think HS would agree with this also. I have seen hubby take all sorts of underrun feet and get correct form in a matter of a few trims…it of course depends on how fast the horse grows new foot, but even for slower growth and really bad cases, it generally only takes a year to see optimal form.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This makes me feel mucho better! I would really like to see Bear end up with better feet – I’ll let you guys know what the farrier ends up doing today . . .

Libby (who really does find this subject endlessly fascinating)

Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique

I am new to this bulletin board and want to say… this is the most incredible thread I have ever read. It should be required reading for horse owners… and it makes me feel not alone in my ongoing obsession with hoof balance and lameness prevention!

Your knowledge is so valuable… keep it up!!!

I have no idea what a sunny is but it can’t be as good as this.

Martha…here are some pics to compare. While you can’t really see the tubules (they are microsocpic) the striations or “grain” on the outside of the hoof wall indicate the direction that they are growing.

The top pic is a foot that has good direction to the growth. Note that the “tubules” are parallel to each other…the heel lines are parallel to the toe lines. The tubules are aligned along lines of weight-bearing stress.

The bottom pic is a foot that has underrun heels. The tubules in the heel are not parallel to the ones in the toe…they are growing forward and not down. This results in a weakened heel with structure not growing in the direction of weight-bearing stress. You can also note on this pic (see arrow) that where the unnatural loading of the hoof wall occurs, that is where there is distortion resulting in flares and quarter cracks.

[credit: Color Atlas of the Horse’s Foot, C. Pollitt, 1995]

Here is a link to further understand the microsocpic view and the value of quality horn growth: Hoof Care Study

And here is a good article on what happens when there is a long toe/underrun heel: The Natural Angle

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Thank you guys so much for the support – I’m tired and cranky and my farrier is pretty unhappy with me, but Ben’s hinds were reset today and his movement was better – not 100%, but better immediately afterward.

I have the x-rays that I took at the clinic today to put up tomorrow and slb – I love the drawings! I want to throroughly look tomorrow and come back with questions.

HS – would you take a look at Buzz’s x-ray of his right hind foot? The top of the coffin bone is high outside and the bottom is low outside. Should we further lower this horse outside/inside/not at all? He was Very Sore in his right hip at his adjustment on Tuesday and that is after a couple of weeks in his new trim which put him a bit lower on the outside. The left looks like it is a candidate for lower inside, but no one can agree what to do with the right hind on Buzz.

Thanks guys!

Libby

Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique

Hilary – It sounds like you will be really pleased with the pour-in pads. I wonder if you’d need both? I wonder if pouring him at first with the equi-build (the black stuff) would give you the stabilization you need, without needing to do the bondo as well. Ben was the bondo foot king at one point, and we found that once we started pouring him, he grew more sole, and hoof wall, and his whole foot is more stable and we haven’t needed any bondo in ages. The Equi-build is a much firmer pour and we did two resets with it at first, to improve his feet and then moved to the Equi-pak, which I love. One of the unexpected benefits of it is that when he does pull a shoe, it stays in his foot and keeps the hoof wall from disintegrating. The only time he’s lost a pad or had it tear was when he was in a pasture that had some buried hay string and he managed to catch that across his heel and it slipped under the pad and cut it when he took off. I always had problems with the different bondo materials staying on the hoof, particularly in a wet spring or summer.

slb – I wondered that too – if we had too many horse feet floating around!!

Ok, Buzz is in wedge bars because he is pretty poorly conformed in front. When I bought him, he stood waaaay behind his feet, so to speak. On his left front, he has a hideous old bowed tendon (the leg turns out about 15-17 degrees in front without a little correction and yes, he is a cousin of Slew! ) and he had lonnnng toes and really low heels.

The farrier trimmed him the first time, put fronts on the second time, and I was really unhappy. So, I met with the vet and we decided to shorten the toes and set the shoes back – farrier claimed I just wanted a second horse with a club foot, but he did it, and then stated that I was right, that was what this horse needed.

So, we go along, he puts himself to work in the pasture (gotta love those T’breds! ) and he comes up lame, like really lame. So, we believe that he’s strained his suspensory, but nothing shows on u/s, so we do stall rest and turn him back out after about 3 weeks. Plays in the pasture for a while, and boom! He’s lame again. This time we x-ray and the films don’t look bad, but vet decides that there is probably arthritis in the joint, based on the amount of effusion in the joint, so we inject him and rest him.

He’s better but not 100%, so I start really thinking about this – i.e. I am dreaming about horse feet (I think there is a pattern here!) I realized that his boney column support is still bad, even with the short toes and farther back breakover. It occurs to me that to rotate through its motion, the fetlock joint is still having to go too far forward over the long toe, and worse yet, dropping way too far to the ground, since there is no support under it at all. Therefore, anything more than w/t work is going to probably aggravate a joint that is low on lubrication at this point anyway.

So, I ask for a shorter toe and we decide to see if the bar shoes help with his support issue. They do, but he is still having an occasional flareup in his ankle. At this point, he is also on NAG injections, feed through joint stuff, and I was getting ready to try to put him to work. So, right after the AAEP convention, I got together with our vet that went to all the foot stuff that was available down there, and we looked at his feet/conf really hard. We decided he still had a low/slightly underrun heel, so I asked my farrier if he could build these shoes into wedge shoes (I HATE wedge pads and though that would have helped the ankle, it would have further crushed those heels).

So, what he did was to take the eventers that he wears, and weld the steel bar across the back, adding steel and tapering the wedge just so. He did a beautiful job, and it has had two benefits that we can see so far.

First, his ankle is finally standing more over his foot. He’s been back in almost daily work (he doesn’t do much, since he doesn’t KNOW anything) but some days he’s worked pretty hard, and the ankle has not flared up yet (I feel as if I am jinxing myself!) As we got started back to work, I did bute him lightly (1 gram at bedtime) if he worked really hard, just to be careful. He hasn’t had any bute in a while, and seems to be doing ok. The second benefit to this shoe is that while his heel isn’t really floated, it has been given room to expand, and darned if it isn’t growing down to meet the bar. We’d like to encourage the heel to do what the bar shoe is doing and that is our goal – to one day not need them. I don’t know if we’ll get there, but we are trying.

I wanted this type of shoe on Bear, who is the navicular horse, but his farrier doesn’t believe that the wedge on the bottom of the shoe works – like the KB shoe- he thinks that the wedge will just sink into the ground and not do what it is intended to do. I can see that argument, but it is obviously helping my horse and must work for others, or the idea wouldn’t have been developed.

I realize that I am neither a vet nor a farrier, but it seems that applying some basic idea of physics to this horse has really helped him. The vet is stunned we have not had to re-inject that ankle, and if the time comes, I will, but I’d rather avoid doing it if possible.

Libby (who will take Ben’s new rear feet pics later today when it stops raining – hey, Martha, can we do a file that puts x-ray views next to feet pics? )

Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique

Martha, fwiw, when Ben wore tiny road studs behind 24/7 (before his feet were balanced) he got hock sores on a regular basis. They have gone away for the most part, but now that we are on self-care board, I can put in as many shavings as I like, so he’s bedded pretty deep and just with back shoes on, I haven’t had the problem.

And, hopefully tomorrow I’ll have pics of x-rays to post. The vet called tonight, and the shots he took of Buzz’s hind feet are Very Strange. It appears that the bottom of p3 points in one direction, whereas the coffin joint itself leans in the other.

So, I’m going off to the clinic to see them and we are going to study them together, Cause folks, that just don’t make sense. Only on the $450 horse would we find such a thing. Why am I surprised? The little monster is allergic to GRASS, after all.

Update on Bear: The farrier wanted to make only one minor change at a time, so he’s in the same shoes, same wedge pads, but the toes are rockered and the heels appear to have been cut some, as they don’t look quite as underrun. I would have thrown everything but the kitchen sink at this problem, but he’s been shoeing longer than I’ve been alive, so we’ll see.

Hopefully pics of the x-rays tomorrow. In the meantime, any ideas?

Libby

Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique