Posting/Rising Trot -- let me count the ways -- so confused, which way is right?

[greengirl]

I am suffering serious confusion and frustration over something that seems like it should be so simple. I feel like I’ve been over-instructed and that this has been over-thought. I am IRKED (!) at the thought that I may have been practicing this the wrong way for months. I need emotional support as well as your thoughts on what I should be doing. If I was the dramatic type, I’d destroy my house while bawling in tears – I am that frustrated.

I’ve now been taught 4 different ways to post/rise the trot over the past 2+ years. Here they are. I have been at #2 since spring. #3 and #4 just occurred today.

1. Riding in a chair seat in hunter land in cc jumping saddle - push off your foot with your heel really far “down” but with lower leg too far ahead, upper body angled forward, smaller “V” angle between upper body and hips, lower leg braced, clear the pommel when posting. RESULT: most likely leading with the shoulders when rising, behind the motion without even knowing it, no good contact with horse’s sides because all I feel is girth, hard to get horse to move forward well.

2. Riding with a trainer from eventing & classical dressage world but in same close contact jumping saddle - dropped down 4 stirrup holes, now inner thighs are not naturally in contact with saddle, so force thighs into contact with saddle by rolling forward on crotch & clamping thighs down, ride basically on inner thighs while posting, posting is more like a form of two-point, slide up the saddle to the pommel rather than clear the pommel, center of gravity is markedly forward, “V” angle between upper body and hips bigger, feet float above stirrups and slip around, lower leg tends to slip back. RESULT: great inner thigh workout, better shoulder/hip/heel alignment, maybe looks a bit weird, much less weight in stirrups, can adjust foot in stirrups easily but feet slide around, lower leg slips WAY back, crotch is sometimes crushed, am I gripping with my knees, easily set off balance in a forward direction.

3. A trainer from Western world saw me doing #2 and had me just relax - weight back more & centered, no trying to ride off my thighs, don’t worry about clamping inner thighs to match saddle shape, just let the horse’s movement push me up, very relaxing for me and horse, lower leg was much more quiet, try to get lower leg back but don’t force it too much. Result: no upper body lean forward, small, tiny post, very relaxing, no effort, happier rider and horse, slight chair seat but not terrible.

4. On the same day as #3, a former trainer from dressage world gave me another version - shorten stirrups up 4 holes which put inner thigh back into contact with saddle (yay!!), post really HIGH and really clear that pommel, do not lead with shoulders. Result: really out of breath from posting so high and really moving my pelvis forward with energy, horse moved forward much better.

Please educate me. Are these just various forms of rising trot? I always thought it was a simple thing where you allow the horse to push you up and it’s the rider’s job to just control the downward motion. Should there be such effort put into it? #3 seems in line with everything I read, plus it felt good.

Apart from that, if you have experienced similar confusion over this or anything else riding-related, I’d love to hear your story. I feel as if I am learning to speak a language but am being taught 4 different dialects!

I am also posting this in the h/j forum to see what h/jets have to say.

[CHT]

The posting trot can just be a way to make trotting easier, or it can be a way to control the trot and influence the horse’s rhythm. It can also be a tool to help you time our leg aids.

A quieter post just allows the horse to keep going, while the more exaggerated post can influence the horse.

Overall, I think you are overthinking though. I focus mostly on making sure my core is holding up my upper body (and not my lower back), and that my weight is down into my knee (so my lower leg is independent of my seat).

[TB_or_not_TB]

What type of riding are you doing? That will make a difference in what you’re trying to accomplish, and therefore how you go about it.

For jumping and often on green horses, I often post from a two point position. My upper body stays at a consistent angle with shoulders over heel and hips back to counterbalance. Stirrups should be short, contact with the saddle is very light in my seat, and my lower leg is forward to lock me into position. (If I sat straight up right and deep in the saddle, I would be in a chair seat) I am putting a little “extra” lift on the natural thrust of the horse’s trot (weight in the stirrup) and using my ankles and calves as shock absorbers to stay light.

For dressage, my leg is longer and underneath me, and the horse’s gait is providing most of the momentum for posting. However, there is still some weight in my stirrup. I use my thighs and core a little more as shock absorbers and so that my pelvis can move with the horse and I don’t lock through the hips. My torso is tall and long in a classical position while the hips/thighs stay in motion. There is still nothing forced.

From your descriptions, your saddle puts your leg in a forward/jumping position, but half your trainers want a dressage torso. It would be extremely difficult and require a ton of effort because you would be fighting your body the whole way without a base of support to effectively work from. If you do this, your shoulders will try to go forward to keep your balance. Try posting from a two-point with jumping-length stirrups, or switching to a dressage saddle to have a long, tall body. This will be 10x more difficult with a saddle that doesn’t fit you because you will constantly fumble for balance.

[alibi_18]

[QUOTE=greengirl;8349227]
I always thought it was a simple thing where you allow the horse to push you up and it’s the rider’s job to just control the downward motion. Should there be such effort put into it?[/QUOTE]

Simple…Hahahahhaha Sorry, not aimed at you at all! Hahahahaha.

If riding was so simple, it wouldn’t be interesting!

Riding is… let’s say complex. It can be that easy and difficult at the same time.

And when you think you know something…well think again!

First, you need to develop your core muscles. And YES you need to put some effort into your rising trot. Your rising should come of from your horse’s push BUT you need to CONTROL every aspect (rising/sitting : how high, how long, how fast, half halt) of it with your thighs and abs.

I feel as if I am learning to speak a language but am being taught 4 different dialects!

Riding is something really personal. That’s a reason why a lot of people call it ‘‘art’’.

You only need to learn how to speak horse language…

PS: I like no. 4 better. It made your horse move forward and in front of your leg. Just take a deep breath and relax!

[greengirl]

DEEP BREATH IN
EXHALE

Thank you for your input and support Alibi, TB, CHT. It’s all becoming clearer to me now. There are different ways to ride it depending on what you want to achieve.

Alibi, your post cracked me up and made me feel a lot better. I got entirely too serious about this today. Tomorrow’s ride is going to be for fun – no pressure on myself – FUN is why I got into this is the first place. Thank you for helping me screw my head back on right. Yes, this is an art and I’m just learning how to fingerpaint!

CHT, thanks for the reminder about the knee and core. Thinking about weight down into my knee has always helped me.

TB, your advice makes perfect sense to me and I’m going to take it. For now I am going to keep the stirrups short since lengthening them so much puts me out of whack with my saddle. When I find a dressage saddle I’ll lengthen them again and do the more dressagey type of posting, but relax more and keep more weight in my feet.

[amymoyer]

[QUOTE=greengirl;8349227]
… now inner thighs are not naturally in contact with saddle, so force thighs into contact with saddle by rolling forward on crotch & clamping thighs down, ride basically on inner thighs while posting, posting is more like a form of two-point, slide up the saddle to the pommel rather than clear the pommel, center of gravity is markedly forward, “V” angle between upper body and hips bigger, feet float above stirrups and slip around, lower leg tends to slip back. RESULT: great inner thigh workout, better shoulder/hip/heel alignment, maybe looks a bit weird, much less weight in stirrups, can adjust foot in stirrups easily but feet slide around, lower leg slips WAY back, crotch is sometimes crushed, am I gripping with my knees, easily set off balance in a forward direction.[/QUOTE]

I’ve read something a little while ago (sorry, don’t know where) that gripping with your thighs makes it impossible to grip the horse with your lower leg. Think of putting a clothespin on a tennis ball. It is better to not grip with your thigh, try to relax your thigh and knee and hold with all of your leg. If your saddle makes this hard/impossible to do at longer stirrup length, try it shorter and lengthen over time if possible.

Horse should be providing momentum for upward post, but you still control height, duration, etc. You should not be hitting pommel, but just barely clearing on upward swing. Think of motion more as forward/back than up/down. Sorry to add another “method” to the mix.

This is something I still struggle with! Just because it’s simple doesn’t make it easy! I hope this helps.

Amy

[Gloria]

Whether to clear the pommel is determined by the length of stirrup and how big you want to post, so either can be right, and either can be wrong.

To post, allow the horse’ inside hind to push you off the saddle. At that point, relax your hips, and allow your knee and heels to drop down. Note, I say, “ALLOW,” not force. Imagine a string attached to the front of your pubic bone that point forward and above the horse’s poll. Imagine that string to pull your pubic bones upward and forward. While your pubic bone is being pulled forward, engage your core to stabilize your upper body. Really engage your core at “down” beat so you don’t beat down on your horse’ back.

Do you have Sally Swift’s Center Riding? If you don’t, I highly recommend you to get one.

[MysticOakRanch]

I would add to this… Do you do any sitting trot work yet? If so, you’ll find a zillion variations there too. There is driving seat, collecting seat, following seat, half halt seat, etc. Posting trot is kind of like that - so version 4 is a bit more of the driving version, getting the horse really forward and swinging. If you want your horse more collected, you will post a bit differently. And as already mentioned, with different disciplines, you post differently because you have different focus and goals.

My guess, without seeing you, is your stirrups probably need to come down a few holes, but NOT 4 holes, and not until you are more comfortable in this different way of using your body in the post.

One thing that really does drive me nuts is seeing dressage riders with perfectly straight legs - you HAVE to bend your joints, your knee and your hip need to be able to bend and lengthen for your horse to go well. So a too long stirrup does not help you. As a biomechanics expert once said, you can’t expect your horse to bend HIS joints when you aren’t bending YOUR joints. So avoid those extra four holes, but realize eventually, you may go longer by a hole or two.

Wonderful topic - great post - on the BB and on the horse:)

[Scandias]

I’ve been equally confused. They key is that you want to enhance/influence the horse’s way of going without interfering with the horse’s balance.

I personally, have found that it really depends on the horse, the saddle, and your personal conformation.

Generally speaking, I keep my weight in my heels and only post as high as necessary to keep in balance with the horse. There is very little tension/strain on my part. That’s what works for me.

[emipou]

If you’re able to take a few vaulting for riding, or longe line, or no-stirrups lessons, then I would encourage you to do that. It helps to get the feel of the horse, and go from there. Every horse will give you a slightly different post.

Every rider will have a slightly different post. I’ve been having a lot of fun lately watching how different people post. some people have super quiet legs and just go naturally with the horse, and others not so much. Me? I have a lot of leg and still have some improvements to make. I find my legs swing less on a more forward horse, and with more push into my heel (not extreme, just more). I’ve also found that my trainer’s idea of my ideal length is not my ideal length. So I’ve had to ignore her advice on that one. Maybe one day I can go back to where she wants me, but my legs are less secure in that length at the moment.

As you might be seeing from all this rambling, posting a personal thing. The best way to develop a really good post is to keep practicing and practicing and practicing. Take people’s advice, then be prepared to toss out whatever doesn’t work for you, and keep practicing the parts that do work. It’ll come. It could take years and years to develop your perfect post.

As Susanne Von Dietze points out in one of her books (Balance in Movement I think), most people do not have a perfect post. It’s actually really difficult to have a quality post.

[Willesdon]

I have always found trot to be the hardest gait to ride. It is worth reading anf viewing around the subject as different people explain in different ways.

One thing that helped me was being told to ride ‘forward’ not ‘up’ so, in effect, circling your pelvis forward as the horse pushes from behind and catching up with the horse as it comes beneath you again. Goodness, that sounds complicated.

Another useful thing is to try trotting bareback (perhaps on a lunge line). It allows you feel the horse, how it uses the muscles you are sitting on and how the horse is constantly adapting its own balance to carry you. Balance is absolutely key in the trot and that might be why #3 is most comfortable for you. That sounds like you are working with the horse rather than against it.

[Pipkin]

Omg rising trot kills me. I have the same problem as you - I over-think things anyway, and have been taught conflicting methods over the years. I sit now for anything other than stretchy trot and I find it so much easier! Which surely can’t be right!

[Mondo]

Thank you for asking this question. I had no idea that people who ride regularly struggle with posting. As an instructor who specializes in adult beginners, your question and these responses are very helpful to me. Sometimes new riders don’t know the right question to ask, so this is a good thing. I second the recommendation that you read Centered Riding.

[merrygoround]

Having you lengthen you stirrups 4 holes may be drastic depending on the saddle you have and the placement of the bars in relationship to the seat.

If in the rising trot, you allow the horse to move steadily forward, his hind end will “throw” you up, allow your hips to lead up and forward, not up and down, Your thighs need to be softly in contact with the saddle but not gripping. Do not lead with your shoulders. The heels need not be forced or locked down as the weight should be able to go down through your ankles and heel. Do not worry about circling your hips, a concept I find overthinking, just think up and forward with the hips. And only as much up and forward as you need with that horse, don’t overdo it.