Hi - Trying to navigate the world of buying horses and how vetting works. Let’s say you have an agreed on price before the PPE - BUT there are PPE findings. These findings add a risk but do not affect the horse’s current performance and vet predicts will not affect future performance. Does the price stay the same or is there a certain acceptable discount - 5-10%? I’m talking about - bone chip, navicular findings, slightly positive on lameness exam hard ground, not perfect xrays, heart murmurs things that could go in that “grey” range because really the future is unknown. For ease let’s say the horse is mid 5 figures. TIA - I haven’t found anything but I’m trying to figure out how the vetting will affect price.
Depends on how badly the seller wants the horse sold. You can try your luck with an offer, see what the response is. If your offer isn’t successful, you can decide to pay more if you want the horse that much. It’s all a game. What will frighten one buyer may not frighten another the same way.
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Usually offers are made “pending vet check.” That gives buyers wiggle room if they still want the horse but won’t take a chance at the asking price.
If you’re the buyer, and something comes up, ask for the vet records of the horse. If they won’t share them, you might want to walk away.
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If I was the seller of a mid-5s horse that was currently performing well, was sound, and that was the PPE vet’s conclusion, I would not be interested in offering you any discount at all unless the horse had been on the market for-freakin’-ever and I was getting desperate to sell.
Every horse is going to have some flaw that shows up on a PPE, but a horse that is currently performing well without problems despite the flaw and about which the vet says the flaw isn’t likely to affect future performance? I’ll buy that horse every day.
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There’s no rule of thumb as far as I know. You can make an offer or negotiate at any stage of the buying process. If you don’t like the vet findings, if to you they present a real risk you will be left with a crocked horse within a couple of years, don’t buy him. Getting a $30,000 horse for $25,000 is no bargain if you have to retire him in 2 years.
It’s not like real estate where you can figure the cost of the new roof or furnace or removing the hidden oil tank. And once you sink $50,000 into repairs you’ll be home free and snug.
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Unfortunately, a finding like a bone chip will impact your ability to fully insure the horse. The insurance company will not cover the impacted joint or region and will consider it pre-existing. In the case with my current horse, I was able to negotiate and reduce the price of the horse by 20%. Everyone said the bone chip wasn’t a big deal and wouldn’t impact his performance, however, an MRI post purchase showed that it was, indeed problematic and needed to be removed. The surgery was $1800, the MRI was a few thousand, and the horse was out for a year for recovery (longer healing due to soft tissue impact).
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I didn’t go into a PPE assuming that the price was for a perfect horse and would be discounted for any imperfections. The price usually reflects their condition.
Bone chip - up to you if you want to ultrasound. Slightly positive on lameness exam hard ground - of no concern to me unless I’m planning to trot the horse on hard ground regularly. Not perfect xrays. -it’s not a textbook, no x-rays are perfect. Heart murmurs…depends. Before or after work? Some are harmless. But that’s me.
If you want to keep PPE’ing until a vet gives you two thumbs up and a huge smile, shouting “This horse is perfect!” you’ll be ordering a lot of PPEs.
That said, I had a PPE for a (very inexpensive) horse who was described as being a sound jumper. At the PPE, he was displaying advanced neurological symptoms. I did a ton of diagnostics and offered the seller 50%. I was offering the horse a hospice home because he was a very sweet horse who deserved a soft place to land. They countered at a 25% “discount” and I said no. You can always make an offer.
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For me personally there’s no discounted amount that would entice me to buy a horse with an issue that has a chance of being career ending.
And a 10% discount on a 50k horse is $5k - that’s barely the cost of a few months board. In the not even very long run it just isn’t enough to be worth the risk. Save a few months board only to end up with an unrideable, unsellable horse to maintain for potentially 10+ years? No.
People who own land or have lots of money are the perfect owners for these horses 
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Horses don’t have bar codes. You take all the information you have about the horse, including the vet exam, and decide what that horse is worth to you. Maybe you wouldn’t take it for free, maybe you would be happy to pay the asking price. Maybe there is a middle price that would balance risk with reward. Then it’s up to the seller to balance your offer with other considerations. Cost of maintaining the horse, likelihood of a better offer etc. There is no standard markdown. If the horse has been performing well at the level you would use him, unlikely to move a lot on price. If it is a green horse and the vet finding is significant and a surprise, more likely to negotiate.
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I negotiated fairly ruthlessly (and successfully) on my last horse, and what I learned is that it’s not just the PPE but the circumstances someone is selling, the economy, and how much you’re actually trying to whittle away.
When the economy is going strong, you might get a couple thousand knocked off. Maybe cover the cost of the PPE and transport. But a big discount for something on the X-rays that may not be perfect? Good luck. Someone else won’t care as much.
When the economy is not so great and horses are sitting, I think you stand a much better shot, esp if there is something NQR but maybe not a totally scary finding. Folks are much more inclined to move the horse along.
But whoever said simply don’t buy a horse that has inevitable career ending problems is right. You shouldn’t pay a discount to then have a horse break down 1-2 years later. Lots of issues can be managed successfully. Then there are some just not worth touching.
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I would put bone chip and heart murmur into the hard pass category. No discount would make me want to buy that horse.
For the others, slightly off, not prefect x rays, etc. It depends on what the horse is doing. Has it been sound doing the desired job for you for 4-5 years? I’m more comfortable and I’ve seen sellers refuse to lower the price. Is it young and a horse for you to develop and move up? More room for negotiation. I talked 30% off a young horse with a known bad neck x ray. I ended up walking when other things came up on the PPE but sellers were willing to play ball.
There is no hard rule of thumb.
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I personally have and would only negotiate price in case of something that might have a somewhat expensive but straightforward fix, in my experience it was tie back surgery for a roarer. It was a straight up negotiation for the price I was cited for the surgery.
I get the urge to bargain over less than perfect X-rays or a straightforward bone chip but I would also see it as a yellow flag if a seller was too willing to negotiate. Might be a sign they know they are trying to dump a problem.m
My new rule is I will only buy flaws on a PPE if I know the seller and/or have known the horse a while.
Totally agree here. If the horse has a solid record of doing the height/job you want, consistently, and soundly - going to be hard to negotiate price given that the PPE finding isnt/hasn’t impacted usefulness of the horse. But young and unproven it’s a different story.
The market has softened slightly but I do still think it’s a sellers market and the demand for good, solid, consistent show horses makes price negotiations all but impossible lately.
some years ago I tried a lovely trakehner mare, 9 yrs old. Did the PPE and in the process was told the mare HATES needles as I watched vet run around the stall with her trying to draw blood. Later on lunge line she was noticeably off on one hind. (had seen one or two steps during the ride trial but felt fine) . Xrays led to "she will need significant maintenance going forward. I was ready to walk away and my trainer asked if there was a price at which I would buy her. Hard no. Needle phobia and major maintenance didn’t sound like good combo.
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I rarely negotiate after the PPE. Either the findings are acceptable to me, or they’re not. I’m rarely interested in taking on more risk at a lower price.
That said, in one instance I did. We found two bone cysts on the PPE that no one was aware of prior. Huge risk, and in a very hard to treat spot. Likely retirement/euthanasia candidate if they became symptomatic and didn’t respond to the limited treatment options for that spot. However, the horse was older than 10, with a show record to prove he’d been doing the job without interruption for many years. I took him for 50% off the pre-PPE agreed price. He’s still chugging along for another rider now as he nears age 20.
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How young is young and unproven in your opinion? How many years of showing or solid performance - showing or not - would you need to see to have a problem on the PPE be okay? Just trying to gauge if it’s one year or more and does it have to have a show record or is just in full work okay to make you ok with the PPE. Is 7 young or are we talking 4? TIA!
I think it depends a lot on what the problem is. I bought one with some findings in one ankle. Did not flex positive. Horse had been showing and jumping for 4 years at that point and moving up the levels typical for a horse his age in Europe. I think if his job were going to bother it (most likely impact from jumping), it probably would have. If he was a 4yo, I probably would have passed. Other types of problems may require different analysis. You have to read the PPE in connection with the clinical exam and the horse’s workload and performance history.
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Yeah, I agree with @IPEsq. I think 6-7, with a record of a few years doing consistent, age-appropriate classes…having minor findings wouldn’t scare me me off. I don’t think of PPEs as a “pass/fail” but more of a, what’s going on here and can we manage it or not? If the horse has 4 or so years of showing in progressive heights/difficulty and sound, the PPE is more of a fact finding mission to me and less of a test for the horse to pass.
If it’s younger and/or has no show history and just has been “in work” I don’t think that’s quite enough for me to be comfortable with. I don’t think there’s enough evidence there for me personally to be okay with issues on the flexions or rads. Showing is a different type of demand than being “in work” at home in my perspective and I don’t think those things equate for a myriad of reasons.
(I personally wouldn’t buy a horse at any age without a show record at all given I myself would be shopping for a performance horse and I don’t want something that’s never been in the show ring, even in Europe with a pro. But, YMMV! )
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Tangential opinion: If I’m still enthusiastic about a horse after all the normal PPE stuff, including X-rays, etc., I will do an MRI. Too many times X-ray findings come out “unexceptional” but a subsequent MRI shows real problems.
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Curious - do you pay for the MRI or do you ask the seller to take on some of the expense? And what do you MRI - something that’s questionable on the Xrays?
