PPE Deal Breaker?

[delusions_of_grandeur]

Would arthritic changes in a fetlock on a five year old be a deal breaker for you? Backstory is that I hunted this horse in Ireland a few months ago and just absolutely loved him. Beautiful natural balance and step, sensible, very kind, so so clever with his feet, super jump - he’s a smaller animal (15ish) but a nice size for me. I rode him twice while I was there, once hacking with hounds on the road, once for about 5 hours hunting, and he felt totally sound to me the whole time, including trot and canter on pavement. When vetted there were no clinical findings that I’m aware of and examining vet said he was fine for the purpose of eventing/SJ - seller just threw the vetting in with some other horses being done for import and sent me the report but I didn’t speak to the vet (or pay for any of it, they picked the vet and just sent to me). When I sent the x-rays to my normal vet, he noticed what looks like arthritic changes in one fetlock, and said he felt it was a risk and that he wouldn’t move forward based on what he saw. I communicated that to the seller at the time.

BUT a month later I am still thinking about this horse and how much I liked him. Would I be insane to still consider buying him? I know you don’t ride the rads, and he’s sound now, but I already have two that are on the border of retirement so I want something that will stay rideable for at least the medium term. I do have a sports vet that I’ve used in the past that I could reach out to for a second opinion. Should I try to get other views of the joint (I would offer to pay this round)? Goal would be Training and maybe Prelim with a little hunter pacing and foxhunting - but I’d expect to buy another horse in a few years anyway once the others retire so I have more than one going, so I’m ok with him just going training and then doing some foxhunting. Going to attempt to include a screenshot of the rad below…

[luckycricket123]

I would at least reach out for a second opinion from another vet you trust. Is your normal vet a sport horse vet as well?

The problem with x-rays is they aren’t a crystal ball and your vet isn’t a fortune teller. A lot of times I think vets will advise you pass on a horse with imperfect x-ray because they just can’t predict the future.

For me personally, I don’t mind a horse with imperfect x-rays as long as its sound, can reasonably perform the job I want, and has a good brain and has a personality I can get along with.

A lot of times, I leave a PPE with findings, but I just take that as info and try to move forward eyes wide open.

That said, given that this is an overseas vet and you weren’t present for the vetting, I’d have some concerns about the lack of mention of the findings from the x-rays in the PPE report. I would probably want a second opinion from a trusted vet to do a baseline lameness/flexions on the horse.

[Xctrygirl]

Sent you a pm.

Em

[McGurk]

@luckycricket123 said pretty much everything I wanted to say.

If this horse really ticks all your boxes and is within your price range, I would say it’s worth getting another vet to do a lameness exam and get another set of rads.

[Bonnie2]

It’s really hard to find nice horses! The joint is a bit ugly. If he became a more limited use horse, would the purchase/import price be an “ouch” or a problem? If losing the money wouldn’t be a hardship I would go for it. There are lots of wonderful treatments these days that can keep the joint healthier longer. Get your vet and farrier involved from day one. Good luck!

[FLeventer]

I bought a horse with changes in the fetlocks. This is my own personal journey and every horse is an individual. I made the decision to purchase him because he was sound in his current job, fairly light on himself, and he was actually perfect for what I needed. He was also under budget. I also talked with my vet and sent the xrays to my other vet. Both said along the same lines of it is there and it may cause issues in the future, but at the moment he was sound on it.

It never was an issue, instead I had to retire him 6 years later due to a SI issue. He took me through seasons of prelim and was perfect for what I needed at the time. I put him down last year due to the SI issue.

I would get a second opinion. It does not sound like you want him for a resale, but instead a personal horse. If it is manageable and he is sound with his current work load, I would be inclined to take the risk. I would also monitor the situation to prevent/work with any possible issues.

I tell my vets what I am looking for and they give me their opinion, which is what we pay them for. I think there is a lot of vets that are gun shy (who can blame them with some owners?) to say yes this is a pass or this is a manageable issue.

[TXnGA]

If ever there is a questionable finding on a PPE ( done by a third party vet) I ask my vet their opinion and also get a second opinion on top of that.

You have to remember, the vets in Europe aren’t phased by many of the things American vets would be a “no” on or take a harder look at. So I wouldn’t necessarily be mad at whomever did this vetting and not saying anything about this finding.

[delusions_of_grandeur]

Ok sounds like I am not insane to want to further investigate, thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses! For a bit of context I do have a little bit of an existing relationship with the seller and know other people that have bought horses from them and I don’t think they’re trying to screw me over with this guy, Irish horse dealer stereotypes aside. My assumption was that the examining vet is, like TXnGA said, not an American vet, and wasn’t concerned about it since the horse was sound on it, but my American vet immediately flagged it. Horse is reasonably priced (under 20k + shipping) and losing that would be an ouch but definitely not world ending. I always sort of view purchase prices as a sunk cost as certainly a perfect vetting can still have issues (I have one that vetted clean and has been rehabbing for four of the eight years I have owned him). I do think this horse is a kind, quality animal (dam also produced a pony jumper that went to the Europeans which is kinda cool), and just loved the feel he gave over the big stone walls and trappy ground in the field, and he is the absolute definition of fifth leg.

And weirdly I just have a gut feeling about this horse, and have had a pit in my stomach that just won’t go away after saying no. I’ll reach out to the seller and make sure he’s still available, then see about that second opinion.

[delusions_of_grandeur]

One more question, would you use this as a negotiation point for the price? I was comfortable with it prior to the rads.

[NaturallyHappy]

I would sure try.

[punchy]

@FLeventer

I bought a horse with changes in the fetlocks. This is my own personal journey and every horse is an individual. I made the decision to purchase him because he was sound in his current job, fairly light on himself, and he was actually perfect for what I needed. He was also under budget. I also talked with my vet and sent the xrays to my other vet. Both said along the same lines of it is there and it may cause issues in the future, but at the moment he was sound on it.

It never was an issue, instead I had to retire him 6 years later due to a SI issue. He took me through seasons of prelim and was perfect for what I needed at the time. I put him down last year due to the SI issue.

Often a front end issue is the sign of an undiagnosed back end issue. In other words, your SI horse could have had that problem from the start, and that’s what caused the fetlock changes.

[ASB_Stars]

If you don’t ask, the answer is always no. It’s how you ask.

[grzywinskia]

I have a love/ hate relationship with PPEs. I do think they need to be done to understand what a horse has so you can be prepared. I also believe everyone should make their decisions based on what they personally are comfortable with managing.
I vetted a 4 year old from Europe who was “perfect” including neck and back. 3 months later we had to euthanize him due to wobbler syndrome.
Then there’s my top horse. I told the ppe vet he had to be “perfect”. He ended up having chips in two joints including one that my vet said was “inoperable” but neither of my vets was overly worried. I was able to get him to a price I was comfortable with and here we are 6 years later- we did remove the one chip during COVID. But (knocking wood furiously) he’s had 0 issues with those areas. I would 1000% buy him again even if you told me he wouldn’t hold up or would require a lot of care. He’s my best friend in the world.

[piaffequeen2]

My friend Caroline McClung (Dowd) mare Lazy Dot didn’t pass her PPE and this mare went on to do Rolex and Badminton (in the heavy rain) back when it was a true 3 day event and she had to carry weights.

[Live_Wire]

Most UL horses won’t pass the standard PPE performed on a horse purchased to go BN. The pass/fail mentality of PPE’s really irritates me (if you couldn’t tell lol) Not saying that’s your perspective, i just needed to rant.

OP - if the potential maintenance factor doesn’t deter you, I say go for it. I’ve seen considerably worse x-rays on horses going around just fine. Horses, generally, are a crapshoot.

[Jealoushe]

Or vice versa too.

Personally arthritis on a young horse is one thing I would pass on.

[Xctrygirl]

If it’s an import demand a video of the neuro exam and have a competent vet here able to watch it.

You can only confirm Wobbler’s with a myelogram and realistically no one is going to OK that as a part of a PPE. Plus why would you pay that expense!!

Em

[FLeventer]

It was an injury that happened in the trailer. He rehabbed but was never quite right after. Who knows what would have been the reason for his retirement if he didn’t have the trailer issue happen.