PPE exam with navicular disease - Buy or not?

[chocaluna]

I just completed a PPE on a 12 year old warmblood that I am considering buying. This horse has been competitive as a 1.10 meter horse, and I’m looking at him as all around amateur horse for light showing. He probably won’t jump much higher than 3 feet very often. This horse is pretty perfect except for the xrays. Kind, patient, would be an excellent teacher. Super easy and a love bug! He flexed positive on his right front. He was sound on hard ground, and actually moved better on hard than soft ground. Vet xrayed legs and feet. Joints looked better than expected, but the navicular xrays showed moderate changes. He’s been with me on trial and sound and steady under saddle so far. The flexion was a bit surprising considering the degree of sensitivity he showed. I’m torn on whether to move forward or not. I owned a QH with navicular as a kid 30 years ago and it was devastating, so I was inclined to run away when first seeing the xrays. Now I’m being told it’s less of an issue in Warmbloods and there’s many more treatments available to keep them going longer. I’m interested in getting current thoughts on this. I don’t have previous xrays for comparison. Thanks!

[Limerick2017]

Ask if they have vet records from the last year. If the changes haven’t caused issues and your Farrier and vet are willing to work together to maintain things as they are, I bet he will be fine. And when I say maintain things, stay on top of that. Fifteen years ago, I got a horse who was sound with management. The new Farrier took off his egg bar shoes without asking and I did not know how important they were to his management. It was not good and I learned a huge lesson.

[Mayaty02]

It’s not a death sentence but I’d like to see any prior X-rays to compare and factor into his price etc. I have heard many times that horses can’t read xrays and sometimes those with terrible xrays are sounder than those with less changes.

[beowulf]

It’s not any less an issue in WBs than it is in QHs.

But… lots has changed in 30 yrs, on how we can manage it, and there are varying degrees of severity.

I agree with Limerick, ask the owner if they have old x-rays, and compare with old x-rays if they ever had them… if no change… well… horses do not read x-rays…

but if you are paying good money, may be best to find a horse that does not already have something that might limit future performance.

[CHT]

Are you prepared to keep him forever? Is it possible his current owner did some sort of block on the foot which hid any soreness issues?

I hate foot issues, so the horse would have to be pretty darn special for me to still want it, and I would count on having it for the rest of its life…alternatively I would see if the seller would consider a lease.

[chocaluna]

Thanks for the input. I’ve asked if they have the old x-rays. The trainer thinks they may, but they’d be from when the he was 6 years old and might not show anything significant. My goal is not resale, so I would be prepared to keep him forever, but I do understand that at his age and with these xrays, resale would be tough to anyone but somewhere needing a safe schoolmaster type. I’m weighing all that with what I’d offer, if that’s the route I go. Will talk to the vet more tomorrow.

[Toblersmom]

If he was super-special, the price was pretty low, and I had plenty of space and money for a beloved pensioner (that might need to be pensioned almost immediately), I might risk it.

[Jealoushe]

Navicular is incredibly heartbreaking. No way would I buy a horse knowing it has this condition. Sure in some
it can be managed, but every single case I know ended up with the horse being retired from jumping no matter how much vet or showing was done.

hard pass, wouldn’t even consider it. It would be different if you already owned the horse and wanted to salvage its soundness.

[GucciJumper]

I wouldn’t do it. I love my navicular horse but he did retire sooner than I had hoped

[AAHunterGal]

@chocaluna I’m so sorry this is how it’s turning out. I think it depends on how many other chances you’ll have - if you have the funds to get another horse should this one need early retirement, or needs lots of vet bills, then go for it. But if you need to really carefully consider when and how to spend your money, because this might be “the chance” to get a horse, I would walk away.

I really only say this because to me, it sounds like you’re trying to convince us, and yourself, why you should get this horse, even though I suspect your gut is saying “take a pass” even though your HEART doesn’t want that to be the case.

I may be wrong, and I hope I am, and I hope that no matter what it all works out for you!!

[KBC]

Having bought a horse with Navicular when I was younger and naive, I’d pass, frustrating and heartbreaking, at least in my experience. Never did get full ‘value’ out of him, it was a bad decision on my part.

[EmilyM]

I’d pass.

[HungarianHippo]

I would sadly pass, given the intended jumping career.

[BigMama1]

Sorry but no.

[PNWjumper]

@beowulf

It’s not any less an issue in WBs than it is in QHs.

But… lots has changed in 30 yrs, on how we can manage it, and there are varying degrees of severity…

Totally disagree. I would be way more worried about navicular changes in a QH than I would be in a warmblood. I agree that it’s far less of an issue in warmbloods than Quarter Horses. Also, I believe that a large percentage of “Navicular” diagnoses are actually related to poor shoeing and not actually navicular

For starters, the term “Navicular changes” in a set of x-rays MEANS NOTHING!!

Almost every horse I have had x-rayed in the last ten years age 6 and up has had a notation on the PPE (when I’ve bought them or sold them) noting “navicular changes.” None have had “Navicular Disease” or suffered any issues with navicular-related lameness in the many years after sales.

But a) when you’re not comparing the x-rays to old x-rays then it’s misleading to call them changes. And a navicular bone that looks less than ideal MEANS NOTHING. And b) I’ve had horses with scary looking navicular shots that never took a lame step in their lives (concluded lives…meaning horses from my younger years, including QHs). If the horse has been performing soundly for a period of time, it would not give me hesitation.

[Bunker]

I agree with PNW Jumper. Unless you have xrays to compare to, hard to say whether he has always looked like this and it has never affected him. It’s a gamble but at the right price, might be worth the bet. It’s my understanding that “navicular changes” are quite common in warmbloods but always a risk. I seriously considered buying a 7 yr old hunter for the AA’s but since I needed to have resell options, I passed since the mere phrase “navicular changes” scares off most people. The vet said it may never bother him or advance or it could progress - no way to know. He could have been like that since birth but since I had no xrays to compare, I couldn’t do it.

[Blinky]

Agree with PNW…

What is he doing now? In work on a consistent basis without issue? Maintenance required currently to keep him sound?

Or been turned out because the owner “didn’t have time to ride”?-this I would be suspicious about!

[PNWjumper]

Quick additional note, your title is misleading (and incorrect).

“Navicular changes” DO NOT EQUAL Navicular disease.

The horse in question has NOT been diagnosed with navicular disease.

[findeight]

Is he in regular work ( meaning 4, 5 days a week jumping at least once a week) and staying sound? Or, as asked above, been mostly sitting idle due to no time, kid aging out, owner illness, financial problems etc. etc. etc.? That would make a difference and tell you he’s been going sound or maybe hasn’t been.

Ive had two, sound with management, one I knew about, one developed after purchase. Don’t underestimate the cost of the management. That’s why I wouldnt knowingly buy another. That’s my preference based on my situation, one horse at a time. Others may have a different preference when it comes to buying a known issue.

Dont assume he would have a place as a schoolmaster if he needs maintainance, again, it gets pricey. No matter how kind hearted the horse, he can’t pay.

[Limerick2017]

I remember someone telling me (perhaps around 2003) when digital xrays became available, vets were detecting navicular changes in imported Warmbloods BUT did not have reliable baselines to know if they should be concerned. In other words, xrays were giving a clearer picture of the foot of something that may have always been there. Anyone else hear this?