PPE Struggles

[Centralperk267]

I feel like I’m going crazy. I don’t know if it’s just terrible luck, me being picky, or a mix of both but I have done 5 PPEs in the last year or so and they have all been sort of a disaster. All have either been lame at the time of the exam or had some kind of terrible x-ray finding. I know x-rays are not the be all end all, but these have been BAD. Kissing spine, bone cysts, significant navicular changes. All of them the vet conducting the exam has stated there is concern about the horse remaining sound/needing significant medical intervention. To be clear this hasn’t always been the same vet, as the horses have been in various parts of the country, so it isn’t that I’m using the same cautious vet.

Am I just cursed? Picky? It’s been a mix of horses who are doing the job and staying sound and some who haven’t been in work so it’s more of a gamble. Most recently I saw a horse with some impingement in his spine, but competing sound at a level above what I want to do. At first the vet said he wasn’t sensitive, then changed their mind and said he was sensitive and that’s what’s in the final report. I wasn’t there, so I can’t say my opinion on how he reacted. It’s defeating as always to spend so much for bad results.

Do I just go for it and hope for the best? I know relatively speaking I have a low risk tolerance, but at this point it seems finding a horse in my budget (low 5s) with a clean PPE is impossible and I just need to go for it at some point. But at the same time I don’t want to be stuck with a ticking time bomb. I miss when horse shopping was fun

[HPFarmette]

I think it’s just terrible luck. Sorry. Hope you find something that if not perfect is at least manageable. You are wise not to buy a “time bomb”. Waiting for the "explosion " would poison your enjoyment of the horse.

[Woodsperson]

Had this happen about 20 years ago and the problem was always the right front. I’ve never had a problem since. It was just a bad year.

[dmveventer]

That’s frustrating. It doesn’t sound like you’re being picky from the issues you listed, I think some of this is just unavoidable bad luck.

It’s worth considering whether your budget is realistic for what you’re shopping for though. Obviously depends on your discipline and what you’re looking for but “low 5’s” and “competing a level above what I want” stood out to me. For a going horse your budget may be limiting you to just horses with issues. I wouldn’t necessarily change my risk tolerance on major soundness issues but I might consider aiming for something greener or waiting a bit to save up depending on my goals.

[fivestrideline]

What is “some impingement” is probably a good question on this particular horse. Close processes are different from bony changes, as far as prognosis goes. I have a KS horse and I would NOT buy another - but I’d consider “close” processes on a growing or out of shape horse, or one that has been competing soundly for years.

PPEs are about “can I manage and live with this”, not so much about finding a perfectly clean horse. Also, your budget is probably a HUGE part of this - low fives is a tough spot. You’re looking at babies, back burners, greenies, and horses with quirks and PPE findings, at least in my corner of the world. There’s a reason they aren’t more money - though that reason can be totally benign.

It may be valuable to consider what you can manage and what is a deal breaker. For example: a horse that is off at PPE is a deal breaker, as is signs of KS, bone spurs/large floating chips, and anything that makes me wonder about high hind end stuff. I can deal with some OA and other “easily managed” issues, and close processes on an entirely unresponsive back. Then stick with it, and maybe ask for a video of the PPE (even just the trot off and back palpation, as those are super helpful in interpreting the vet report).

Lastly, if the thought of buying a particular horse gives you crazy anxiety or makes you nervous, do not buy the horse. Butterflies/excitement are one thing, a bit of caution is good, but trust your gut. Don’t start your relationship off with a new horse from a place of mainly worry. The right one will come along, it’s a buyer market (mostly), and you’ll find something!

[Bonnie2]

Echoing dmveventer. Low 5’s will not buy you a good brained, experienced horse with a good PPE, unless you are amazingly lucky. Barring luck or a rich uncle, you need to pick your poison. Can you live with a small horse, off breed, hot or quirky, green? On the PPE - foot issues are a heart break in a jumping horse. Backs are sometimes severely limiting, sometimes a maintenance issue, and sometimes a non issue. Roll the dice. Hocks are rarely career ending. Stifles and SI can be severely limiting. Have your own vet (or your trainer’s vet) review the X-rays and report. Ask to have the exam videoed so you can see the palps and flexions. Don’t be afraid to make a lower offer based on the PPE findings if you really like the horse. Horse shopping is hard! Best of luck!

[Centralperk267]

Thanks everyone! I definitely understand my budget is limited, though when I saw low fives I mean up to 30k, so I don’t think it’s too unreasonable to expect a greener horse with some competition experience and a not horrible PPE. This horse was a bit below that, had competed a couple training level events but is better suited for BN/N. Not a packer by any means, still young and semi-green I would say.

[fivestrideline]

@Centralperk267

though when I saw low fives I mean up to 30k, so I don’t think it’s too unreasonable to expect a greener horse with some competition experience and a not horrible PPE

Hmm, that’s below what a 30 day broke WB that’s never shown is going for around here, and OTTBs are starting there for any sort of a BN record. I still think your budget is smaller than your ask list, but I also don’t think you’re so far in the hole that you’re crazy lol. It’s just going to take some patience and a ton of luck.

I do think people are going to start fire-sales of the lower budget animals, if they haven’t already. Don’t compromise on sound, at least for the tough stuff like spines/necks/feet, is my opinion (worth what you paid for it).

ETA: I just want to say again that I don’t think your budget is outlandish, I just think you’re running into exactly the issue with that range - tough PPEs or super green horses. Or both.

[Tha_Ridge]

@fivestrideline

I just want to say again that I don’t think your budget is outlandish, I just think you’re running into exactly the issue with that range - tough PPEs or super green horses. Or both.

Exactly. And think about how much more you’d possibly have in your horse-buying budget without five PPEs.

[Paint_Party]

Though not in the same riding discipline, my budget was 30-40K. Because I did not want anything green or just started, I went into my search knowing I’d have to accept “something” on a PPE but I just wanted it to be manageable.

I vetted five horses that I really liked, all in training and competing. Their PPEs were discouraging: OCD lesions in stifles, fusing hocks, navicular changes, chips near a joint, pedal osteitis, chips in the knees … I had to decide what I was willing to deal with and also accept I was the horse’s final home. I fell in love with one particular horse and after consultation with a sport horse vet, decided the horse was worth the maintenance it required. I won’t say I haven’t dealt with some minor issues and anxiety at times, but I know I chose the right horse for me.

I often wonder if spending another 10-15k would’ve made horse shopping any easier. I’m not sure.

[NoSuchPerson]

@Centralperk267

though when I saw low fives I mean up to 30k, so I don’t think it’s too unreasonable to expect a greener horse with some competition experience and a not horrible PPE

I think it is kind of unreasonable. For example, I know of a green 4 year old of an off breed who has done well at couple of local shows and is located in mid-America (i.e. not a prime horse selling environment) who is listed for $50,000 and likely to sell for close to that amount.

@fivestrideline

ETA: I just want to say again that I don’t think your budget is outlandish, I just think you’re running into exactly the issue with that range - tough PPEs or super green horses. Or both.

I agree.

[tabula_rashah]

I look at different breeds- less expensive and very likely not as many soundness issues

[mmeqcenter]

Lame at the time of the exam, okay, obviously a problem. But currently sound, and actively working at a level above or suitable for your desires?
Bone cysts are relatively common, and not always a problem. How big is it, where is it located, is the horse currently doing its job and sound?
“Significant navicular changes” could mean anything and means something different to every vet. Changing foot angles, using corrective shoes, these are reasonable options that often provide good results in “navicular horses.” I’ve known a couple who came up ouchy, were diagnosed with navicular changes, and became completely sound again
barefoot just with better trimming/hoof angles. Others, a simple shoe with a pad (flat or with a 2° wedge). Is the horse currently doing its job and sound, with or without some maintenance?
“Some impingement in his spine” was the horse xrayed? Just palpated? Back soreness could be literally anything, and I feel like vets just auto-jump to kissing spine these days. What grade did the vet put in the report?

Vets are always going to be extra cautious. They have to cover their own a$$. No (good) vet is ever going to do a PPE and tell you “Yep horse is squeaky clean, will always be sound!” There’s no such thing as a “clean” PPE. There’s always risks for future soundness.
It’s your money and your risk, of course. But, IMO, sounds like both some bad luck and some high expectations for your budget. $30k in the horse world today is not anything near what it was five years ago.

[fivestrideline]

@mmeqcenter

$30k in the horse world today is not anything near what it was five years ago.

Absolutely. Or 10 years ago.

We were saying in 2020 that “$40k is the new $20k”, and that’s likely doubled again. $40k may be the new $10k… which is wild.

[chocolate_chip_in]

I was shopping in the low fives last year, and based on recent experience in the market I want to echo what everyone else is saying–you’re looking at either something green, or you’re looking at something with experience that’s not pristine. As a mid-thirties AA with pre-existing confidence issues, I ultimately decided I could live with an imperfect vetting to get something with mileage who is well past the baby brain stage.

We maintain her carefully, sometimes the anxiety does get to me (this week: her ears weren’t perfectly pricked forward for every step of a technically demanding jump lesson, is she in pain?? does she need injections???), and she may at some point need an off-ramp from a jumping career, but the reality of the market was that I was going to have to compromise somewhere. And I paid $5k over my original max budget for the pleasure, lol.

[dmveventer]

@NoSuchPerson

@Centralperk267

though when I saw low fives I mean up to 30k, so I don’t think it’s too unreasonable to expect a greener horse with some competition experience and a not horrible PPE

I think it is kind of unreasonable.

I agree, unfortunately. I would definitely expect something that’s gone training and is marketed for under $30k to have issues. It may not be a packer but it’s not green either. Being a little more realistic about market rates could help avoid spending money on PPEs that are likely to turn up deal breakers. A knowledgeable trainer could help weed out some of the ads that are too good to be true and lean on their network to get some of the background intel before you commit to a test ride or PPE.

[outside_leg]

I will echo what others have said. I import a lot of horses. I can’t land a young hunter prospect right now for under 30K. They’re all priced accordingly. Right now, import costs are at least 10-15k depending on mare or gelding. That might increase if we see tariffs go into effect.

We usually give our horses a few months to settle and learn the American style before showing. We have our own farm, so can control costs that way. But showing adds another few thousand in expenses. So if you want a young, sound hunter prospect that has some shows under its belt, just understand that the seller probably has 50-60K into that horse. We’d also like to make something for the time and effort we’ve put in, not just cover our costs.

When I see imports, especially recent imports, listed for low to mid-fives, I’m assuming something is wrong. There’s either a vetting issue or a behavioral one. Or both. Because someone is losing money on that horse.

Every once in a while you can find a deal, but it’s the exception, not the rule.

Finally, you’re not wrong about PPEs being wild right now. My vet has rejected way more horses than usual for x-ray findings. And these are not minor findings. One horse had a broken leg. No joke. We passed (obviously), but I saw later someone else imported him. That’s the sort of horse you may see listed for low-mid fives. It’s crazy right now.

All this to say, I do sincerely wish you luck in your search. I don’t know much about the market for different breeds right now or different disciplines. I just know the costs to bring these horses over from Europe and put miles on them here have gone up considerably.

[mmeqcenter]

It is wild. A couple years ago I remember seeing more than one listing of 4-5 year old warmbloods schooling 2’6’’ and never shown, listed in the low SIX figures. WUT

[ThreeWishes]

Honest question OP. Do you have a trusted trainer helping you shop? Someone who can eyeball a horse and sit on it first before you even decide it’s potentially the one? I went through this in 2016. With a similar budget. But that was almost 10 years ago. Tried so many horses. Can’t tell you how many my dear trainer looked at me and said not worth the PPE. And even with that I vetted two I adored. And halfway through it was like uhhhhh uhhhh. Part of me felt sad and part of me realized that I would rather catch something before I bought it and loved it and kept it its whole life because that is what I do and if I lose money, at least I can walk away and find the next one Which I did And he was freaking perfect I also agree you might need to increase your budget for your expectations

[Bogie]

Horse prices are nuts. If you are willing to consider an OTTB, there’s a horse that I moved along last year that wasn’t suitable for me but which has been in a program for the past year and is showing real talent as an event horse – jumps everything, goes through water, etc. No show record and 10 years old. Sound, barefoot and sticks around 16.3 but rides smaller (IMO). I no longer own him but I can put you in touch with the folks who have him now if you’re interested. They are asking around 20K for him – just send me a PM. They have put a lot of time and training into him and he’s really blossomed.