Practice jumper rounds at horse trials

[Ajierene]

@Jealoushe and @Sticky_Situation see below for examples of what I consider vitriol (cruel and bitter criticism).

@tbchick84

It completely defeats the spirit of equal competition where the first time the horse sees the course is the actual event.

@AllTheCarrots

If I ran the world, I would categorize this as outside assistance and ban the practice. Feels like it’s on the same slippery slope as having your trainer warm up your horse or give it a little extra schooling in between phases.

@Sticky_Situation

I realize Eventing is a much different sport now than it was 20 years ago, but do we really need to do away with everything that makes it a unique challenge and different from the hunter/jumper world?

@RAyers

The hunter/jumperization of evening.

@Sticky_Situation

I just think schooling over the exact fences you’ll be jumping in competition, only one day before you compete, goes against the spirit of eventing.

@Sticky_Situation

At this rate soon we’ll be letting trainers school their clients’ horses at events.

As far as cheating - no one one actually said the words but between the above and the complaints about advantage/disadvantage - there is a lot of seemingly inferred accusations of cheating. Which is why I put the word in quotes - it wasn’t actually said seemed implicit.

As far as sour grapes for not wanting to be at a a disadvantage - that thought process, in my opinion, is exactly sour grapes. You will always be at an advantage over someone and a disadvantage with someone else.

You have more opportunities and money than one person and less opportunities and money than another person. That’s just life. These jumper rounds don’t barely touch that - they are offered to everyone. If you cannot get there due to time/financial constraints that someone else doesn’t have, then that person that has the time/finances to attend that schooling round/ring familiarization also has the time/finances to go to one more schooling show or one more trip for a stadium or XC schooling venue, or one more lesson.

In the grand scope of the advantage/disadvantage line, this opportunity lands as close to the neutral middle as one can get, in my opinion.

[Sticky_Situation]

I mean, it’s totally fair if you think that offering everybody the opportunity to school over the competition fences beforehand is a good idea. Obviously plenty of people do, or they wouldn’t be offered at as many events as they are.

But my opinion that I’m not really a fan of the practice, at least as far as recognized events are concerned, doesn’t mean any accusing anyone (explicitly or implicitly) of cheating. Obviously the practice rounds are allowed by the current rules, and it’s something the hunter/jumper world has essentially done for decades, even if it’s fairly new in eventing. Saying that it’s bringing eventing closer to the hunter/jumper format isn’t vitriol … it’s an observation.

You can disagree with my opinion without insinuating I’m jealous and mean just for having it

[AllTheCarrots]

Well, that escalated quickly.

@Ajierene, I think you and I will have to agree to disagree as to whether my post was cruel and bitter. FTR, my perspective comes in part from growing up riding at Waredaca, where they closed the XC fences to everyone in advance of each competition. And my only pre-event interaction with the stadium course was helping Rob set jumps. (Q: How many barn rats and standards can you fit in the back of a pickup? A: Always one more of each) This idea of not obviously trading on home field advantage was just part of the culture I imbibed.

So while I’m going to stick to my perspective for where I’m at (shite rider with basement-level goals, born and bred in Area II) I do thank the folks who have pointed out that other areas do not have the same embarrassment of riches, and that in some cases wrapping schooling and competition together is the only way they can make the magic happen.

[RAyers]

OOOOOOO! I want to reply!!!

Of course it is the hunter/jumperization of eventing. We never had these opportunities and expectations in the past. The fundamental idea of eventing was to test the horse and horsemanship of the rider in situations where they were not allowed to prep the horse. We did that in the past by going to h/j shows and dressage shows to get the miles and then assembled all of it at a horse trial. And if you crashed or refused out, you had to wait another YEAR to come back and try that venue again. It was tough and time consuming, because being a good horseman is time consuming! Competitions tested your preparations.

As for vitriol? I am simply stating the business fact. Eventing has been chasing the h/j business model for decades. And I see no aspect of my comment that even implied “cheating.” It is a simple fact of changing eventing into another sport that no longer tests what the original intentions intended.

[Ajierene]

@AllTheCarrots

@Ajierene, I think you and I will have to agree to disagree as to whether my post was cruel and bitter. FTR, my perspective comes in part from growing up riding at Waredaca, where they closed the XC fences to everyone in advance of each competition

That’s fine that you disagree. People asked where I saw it, so I quoted.

That Waradeca closes their courses before the event does not mean you don’t have an advantage over someone like myself who only goes there to show. Much like my advantage at Fairhill - I don’t need to even walk the course. I can look at the map and read the jump names and know pretty much where the jump is and what it looks like.

I know that when jump 3 is in that swale kind of behind the foundation that I have to steady up a bit then have usually a stride of relatively flat to set up. I know the foundation and the ditch areas intimately. The water complex (though recently changed a bit) and I are old friends. I know what the hill and flat look like around that for approach as well as what to do wherever the jumps are around it - all without walking the course.

Also, while you only jump the actual stadium course on show days, your horse is familiar with the color and style of the jumps as well as the layout of the arena and other things are an advantage over other people. That liverpool isn’t the first time the horse jumped over that liverpool (as opposed to other ones). If you have a jump with Tardis design wings like I saw (and jumped) at Plantation one year, you have the opportunity to jump the horse over/through it and get over any weird distractions or spooks related to that. Yes, the jumps are not decorated but in your case you are adding one variable (decorations opposed to none) contrary to another horse adding a lot of variables (decorations, wings, scenery, set up, etc).

That’s my point - we all have advantages and disadvantages everywhere. There’s nothing wrong with that and likewise, it isn’t a horrible thing to allow people to do some ring familiarization or schooling rounds.

I think you hit an important point in your second paragraph that maybe you didn’t think of before which is why your post seemed unnecessarily cruel to me. Not everyone lives in Area 2. Fair Hill is a 15 min drive for me, St Augustine and Plantation are about 45 min. Waredaca is “far” at close to 2 WHOLE HOURS! So yeah, living where we live, we have many more opportunities than people living in other parts of the country.

[Ajierene]

@RAyers

Of course it is the hunter/jumperization of eventing. We never had these opportunities and expectations in the past.

I bet you walked uphill both ways to school, didn’t you? And these kids these days with their “school buses” are soft!

Change is not always bad. Allowing training opporutnities at shows is not defiant of whatever original intent you think Eventing had. Eventing is more and more open to a broader range of people and the change in time constraints on individuals with the needs and desires of both horse and rider mean changes.

Change isn’t bad - if you really want to rail against changes in Eventing and go back to some original intent/original design, you need to go back to when it was a 34 mile endurance test, followed by a rest day, followed by a day of steeplechase test, followed by a stadium jumping test and on the final day, dressage.

Things change, that isn’t always bad.

[Willesdon]

Change is good. Change that means fewer falls is good. Change that improves fitness in riders is good. Change that alters the fundamental philosophy of the sport, the reason to be, ummm, not necessarily a good thing.

[RAyers]

As noted, the fundamental principles of the sport are modified. Look at the history of the sport.

https://www.fei.org/stories/sport/eventing/history-eventing?&list=2&content=2

Consider what each phase was supposed to test in both horse and rider. Yes, as Willisdon notes, change is good, but changes such as this move the sport away from what it was to a glorified jumper test with dressage.

[Gardenhorse]

@Ajierene

Change isn’t bad - if you really want to rail against changes in Eventing and go back to some original intent/original design, you need to go back to when it was a 34 mile endurance test, followed by a rest day, followed by a day of steeplechase test, followed by a stadium jumping test and on the final day, dressage.

Don’t worry. Many of us have railed against those changes.

[Sticky_Situation]

Cross country school opportunities are usually even more limited than chances to school over a showjump course. Should we start allowing people to school the competition XC course in the few days before recognized events, too? Maybe open the grounds for arrivals on Wednesday so that people can school the XC on Thursday, show jump Friday, and finally be ready to put in clear rounds by Saturday? Should we let the trainers school the horses around XC first, to make it safer for the amateurs and kids when they get on? Change is good, right?

[trubandloki]

@Ajierene

I bet you walked uphill both ways to school, didn’t you?

Hey, some of us really did this!

[RAyers]

I will not presume to know your age or experience. My riding started up in the 60s and so I’ve always had trainers and mentors who pushed what are now considered “old school” horsemanship. Perhaps I am an anachronism who should retire, but I am still allowed my ideas based on my experiences.

I still ride and train to those ideas. Even at jumper shows I try to not school in order to learn the most about how my horse responds at a horse trial where there is no familiarization (new term for old idea).

[Ajierene]

Maybe you can point me to where that description says that eventing was designed to show what a horse can do over specifically something it has never done before.

I find this:

Eventing became an Olympic sport at the Stockholm Games in 1912. It was only open to amateur riders who were in the military. The purpose was to test the cavalry on their fitness and suitability. Dressage showcased skills from the parade ground, the jumping phases demonstrated speed and stamina.

If I recall correctly, you are not nor have you ever been in the military, neither has your horse. Should you not event?

Badminton’s original intent was practice for the Olympics, so following your logic, that in itself should never have been done since apparently practice over same or different obstacles is bad?

As per your last post. Do you think anyone who started riding in decades following the 60’s does not practice good horsemanship? Has no one passed on that training? What about building on it or changing ideas? Do you still use all the same tack and protective gear from the 60’s? Did you find better gear? How does that effect your riding? Following your logic, couldn’t some of that be considered an unfair advantage?

[Mander]

@Ajierene

If I recall correctly, you are not nor have you ever been in the military, neither has your horse. Should you not event?

I mean… you said it in your quote - The purpose was to test the cavalry on their fitness and suitability. The result of the event may very well be that you and your horse are, in fact, not very suitable for the cavalry

I think you’re catastrophizing a bit. No one is saying the sport shouldn’t change at all. Lots of changes have happened in the last 60 years, most of which are centered around the welfare and safety of the horses and riders. The pushback that I’ve read (between the lines in some cases) is that this change would affect the intention of the sport, but doesn’t really improve the safety/welfare of the horses and riders necessarily. The only thing that it changes is the difficulty. If a horse spooks at a jump, usually it will stop or run out, which probably means you’re out of the ribbons, but it’s not exactly on par with a rotational fall.

I’ll be honest - from your responses it sounds a bit like the “sour grapes” are a bit of a projection from you. You clearly feel extremely strongly about this, and maybe it’s worth some introspection as to why that is. It’s ok to be frustrated that you might not have the opportunity to school XC at a certain venue, while Sally over there gets to go every weekend. It’s frustrating to be on a green home-bred that looks thrice at everything when Billy over there has rich parents who bought him a 5* horse that just needs a step down. You’re right that there will always be people who have more than or less than, and that’s the nature of EVERY competition - there’s always going to be a home field advantage.

But let’s go with your argument that it’s better for people who have fewer opportunities to get to the venue and are therefore at a disadvantage. To me, it sounds like the fast and dirty solution to something that can be solved in other (perhaps better) ways.

Ask yourself, what’s the better horsemanship? Going to practice over those fences at the venue? Or training your horse at home to jump anything at any venue? If your horse isn’t very brave, you can go to the dollar store and buy flowers, or pool noodles, or table cloths and drape them over the jumps at home. Go get a board to add to your fences and spay paint it with a new design every month. Collect your plastic grocery bags and tie them around poles. If there’s a fence your horse spooked at at one event, try to recreate it at home (even if it’s not a very good replica!) Every time you have a “new” fence in the ring, warm up on the other end of the ring and then jump it cold. No, it won’t be the exact fences you’ll encounter at a show, but it will help teach your horse to be brave and jump new things at EVERY show, not just the ones you have a home-field advantage at.

Regardless, I don’t think it’s worth losing that much sleep over, but I have to agree that it seems unnecessary, and outside the spirit of the event, to really change the sport in this way.

[AMWookey]

@Highflyer1

Someone will always have the advantage. At the end of the day, I think you just have to give your horse the best preparation you can manage

Exactly. This is absolutely how I feel. I always have an advantage at the Carolina because it’s where my babies did their first off property school, and it’s my home venue. Same for other people when we go somewhere else. Nothing I can do about that, or the organizers to meet some arbitrary level of fairness. But offering ring familiarization does cut down on some of that, and for some riders, that may make the difference between a successful weekend or not.

We didn’t get to do the ring familiarization at Tryon for the big stadium, and I walked my mare down to the gate multiple times to try and get her used to walking through the tunnel. She still tried to fly backwards and got a bit wound up, so I got a lead. Once she got in the actual ring her reaction was “oh. It’s just a ring” and she settled down immediately. But we could have avoided an entire weekend of stress if I had read the omnibus correctly. I’m a novice level amateur eventer. I don’t want to worry about that stuff lol.

Having the advantage or not, I took my mare out for her first training level event at CHP, and retired at fence 8. We were ready, but my anxiety got the best of me, and I put my hand up and said ‘today is not the day’. So in a couple weeks, we will try again on a day we can school the course before hand, and I absolutely will not apologize for going against the ‘spirit’ of the sport. I want to move up to training. My horse and I are both eeady for it. But I have anxiety, I’m a 36 yr old amateur who walked with a cane 5 years ago, and took 15 years off from serious riding. If I can school the course beforehand to actually have the guts to continue on, well, yes, I’m going to do it and hope that it breaks my mental block. And I’m not going to feel one ounce of guilt for needing that.

[Ajierene]

@Mander

I mean… you said it in your quote - The purpose was to test the cavalry on their fitness and suitability . The result of the event may very well be that you and your horse are, in fact, not very suitable for the cavalry

Valid point…maybe we should have all cavalry recruits compete…hm…

My horse would like you to know she would be stellar, me, she’s not so sure about.

As to why I respond the way I do - well it’s because it seems contrary for a sport that claims inclusion and comraderie, to look down their veritable nose at an exercise that can assist someone in being a better rider/horseperson. As per AMWookey’s post below yours - that’s an indication of someone that would have gone from possibly ending on a letter to ending on a number.

The derogatory remarks about other disciplines are in bad taste in my opinion.

I think, and have seen it myself, that often people who have been riding and/or eventing since childhood, especially those with less anxiety issues, do not understand and sometimes do not care to understand how some of these things can help someone just not crash and burn.

I am sure many people on this board will not walk up to someone opting for a schooling round and say “well, I think what you are doing is wrong and in violation of the spirit of eventing!” But someone may read this thread and think “well, REAL eventers think this is wrong and I don’t want to seem wrong so I’m not going to do it” or just feel self concious about doing it.

It could also be a comment overheard at a show, which can also be hurtful.

For what? Some perceived ‘spirit of evening’ concept?

If I can at least offer some support to those people, I will. If I can get some people to understand that this is actually good horsemanship and can be a positive, then that’s better.

[Mander]

@Ajierene

well it’s because it seems contrary for a sport that claims inclusion and comraderie, to look down their veritable nose at an exercise that can assist someone in being a better rider/horseperson.

I feel like maybe you’re misinterpreting people not wanting these practice rounds at events as being “unwelcoming”. A welcoming sport, to me, is when I show up and people greet me with a smile and introduce themselves. If I have a disaster of a round, someone says “Hey, I’m sorry that didn’t go so well. Better luck next time!”. I’m volunteering at a schooling event tomorrow, and the volunteer organizer has been just beyond kind and helpful in getting me involved, despite not having a barn I belong to here yet. Being welcoming doesn’t have anything to do with my ability to place at an event. There will be mean, snotty people, everywhere you go - at some point, you really do have to learn to ignore them and focus on you and your goals and how you can achieve them and find the people who support you.

Accessibility (which is what I think you’re actually arguing for) is a real struggle for many in this sport, especially the western US, but 1) a single practice round IME has fairly short-lived benefits (meaning, it has its greatest effect on the day of) and 2) shouldn’t necessarily be the end goal. If I can’t swim, but want to compete in a diving competition, should they allow for a division that lets you dive with a life jacket? It would certainly make the sport more accessible! Especially for people who don’t have regulation diving pools nearby!

For what? Some perceived ‘spirit of evening’ concept?

Well, since the “spirit of eventing” doesn’t matter, let’s just get rid of jumping. Or maybe dressage. Or both! Better yet, just let competitors choose what parts of the competition they want to participate in! No good at dressage? Skip it! No good over XC? No worries mate! Horse spooked at water? You can just trot around it, no biggie. Horse only turns left? Just ride a circle in the ring and walk out. Can’t afford a horse? You can just enter the class and jog all of your tests and parkour over the fences. Obviously, I’m poking a bit of fun, but without a purpose, intention or direction - what I would call the “spirit” of every sport - what’s left?

As far as good horsemanship - I’m just not convinced this is really a great argument. Is making your horse jump not one, but two jumper rounds on competition day (after running XC/dressage) “good horsemanship”? I mean, is it terrible horsemanship, nah, but I don’t think it’s as strong an argument as you make it out to be. A horse doesn’t care if their score is a letter or a number - the riders do. Winning =/= horsemanship. There are many riders who I would say have wonderful horsemanship, and rarely place. There are also riders who have abysmal horsemanship, who take home many ribbons. IMO, no matter the sport, competition day is not the time to practice or train - it’s the time to SHOW what you’ve been working on for the last however many months/years/etc.

If I can at least offer some support to those people, I will.

Again, there are so many other ways to accomplish the goal you want. Support people by taking them to training days at local venues! See a kiddo over there who can’t afford to do more than one event/yr? Sponsor them at the next event! Someone at your barn who can’t get out to school XC? Offer to let them borrow your trailer (or go with them!). Get a group together at your barn to come up with fun jump decoration ideas! Subsidize a half-lease for a teenager who can’t afford it. Donate old competition clothes. Help teach a rider how to desensitize their horse!

^^ That’s welcoming AND good horsemanship - without making any changes to competitions.

[RAyers]

EquiRatings: Does Eventing Have a Clear Objective? - Eventing Nation -...

Here is a little synopsis for you.

Inclusivity, while admirable, is NOT an objective or fundamental test in eventing. It used to be distinctly different from the other disciplines. Now it is dressage horses jumping or jumpers doing dressage. It not longer tests the braveness and boldness of fit horses set for XC to still be rideable in dressage or have enough fitness to do stadium after the endurance phase.

[Sticky_Situation]

@Ajierene

@Mander

I mean… you said it in your quote - The purpose was to test the cavalry on their fitness and suitability . The result of the event may very well be that you and your horse are, in fact, not very suitable for the cavalry

Valid point…maybe we should have all cavalry recruits compete…hm…

My horse would like you to know she would be stellar, me, she’s not so sure about.

As to why I respond the way I do - well it’s because it seems contrary for a sport that claims inclusion and comraderie, to look down their veritable nose at an exercise that can assist someone in being a better rider/horseperson. As per AMWookey’s post below yours - that’s an indication of someone that would have gone from possibly ending on a letter to ending on a number.

The derogatory remarks about other disciplines are in bad taste in my opinion.

I think, and have seen it myself, that often people who have been riding and/or eventing since childhood, especially those with less anxiety issues, do not understand and sometimes do not care to understand how some of these things can help someone just not crash and burn.

I am sure many people on this board will not walk up to someone opting for a schooling round and say “well, I think what you are doing is wrong and in violation of the spirit of eventing!” But someone may read this thread and think “well, REAL eventers think this is wrong and I don’t want to seem wrong so I’m not going to do it” or just feel self concious about doing it.

It could also be a comment overheard at a show, which can also be hurtful.

For what? Some perceived ‘spirit of evening’ concept?

If I can at least offer some support to those people, I will. If I can get some people to understand that this is actually good horsemanship and can be a positive, then that’s better.

Saying that I don’t want eventing to start doing more stuff the way jumper shows do isn’t a “derogatory comment about other disciplines.” I like ice cream. I like hamburgers. I don’t want my ice cream to start tasting like hamburgers. That is not a derogatory comment about hamburgers.

I’m not convinced that jumping extra rounds is better horsemanship. I’m also not convinced that reading comments by random strangers on the internet that say “hey, I think eventing should’ve stuck to not letting people school the fences at the competition” is going to turn anyone off from the sport or even dissuade them from taking advantage of the schooling rounds. Hell, I probably wouldn’t bother doing schooling rounds on my current horse, as he’s pretty experienced and if anything seems to jump even better when there’s a little “atmosphere,” but if they become commonplace at the evens I go to by the time my young horse is ready to start doing recognized events, I might even have to start taking advantage of them myself even though I’m not really a fan of the practice, because why put myself at a disadvantage on purpose when all the other green horses have already seen the fences?

[Willesdon]

@RAyers

https://eventingnation.com/equiratings-does-eventing-have-a-clear-objective/

… It not longer tests the braveness and boldness of fit horses set for XC to still be rideable in dressage or have enough fitness to do stadium after the endurance phase.

Have you looked at this year’s Badminton course yet? Eric Winter is looking to test feel, horsemanship, seat of the pants… And he is is expecting only a small minority to get round clear.